Given "you fight how you train" can one excell in Both RBSD and MMA tourneys?

This post was part of a thread about how since a human being has only one CNS, one training for both combative sports/and Real World Self Defense will result in cross wired programming or whatever the scientists call it..Does anyone agree or disagree?..But curious, anyone across the pond training for any mma tourneys find themselves going for a submission in a multiple attacker scenario??
History 101
http://senshido.savi.ca/viewtopic.php?t=1672&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=reflexive+response++conditioned+response

Quote :

When I first started, as MP stated on another
post, MMA was a major part of my curriculum. My students competed, won first, second and third place positions in MMA tournaments, grappling,boxing and kick-boxing. My concern was always RBSD however because I had experienced much violence in my life for many reasons I care not go into here. I\'ve been shot at, cut, faced multiple armed attackers, took my share of cuts, lumps, broken bones, bruises etc. more than I ever
care to ever go through again. I\'ve also witnessed things that would make most people cringe at if they viewed it in a movie. I\'ve dealt with rape victims and many victims of violent crime. I\'ve had women sit in my office showing me multiple stab wounds all over their bodies in fear for their lives.I\'ve not only seen but have experienced reality (as much as that word seems to be taboo in many circles) and my God Matt, it is scary, it
isn\'t pretty dude. It looks nothing, I mean absolutely nothing like any martial art I have ever seen, not MMA, not JKD, not traditional or alive or even most of the RBSD systems in existence today. Nothing like it at all.
What happened then, again, as MP stated before, is that I saw a very disturbing trend in my school. I saw my students trying to do takedowns, underhooks, clinches, box, attempt submissions when replicating scenarios (another taboo word in some circles, however,oddly enough, even though \"scenarios\" and \"replications\" are mocked by many martial artists who claim that what they do works, all military,LEO, security, and even firemen work scenario replications. Funny how
those who actually put their butts on the line find it an incredibly useful and mandatory part of training, yet most MMA/sport guys will turn and mock it), anyway, I digress... like I was saying, I found my students getting stabbed, shot, and killed in these replications. Their
tactical decisions were strictly physical and \'sport\' oriented. There\'s a saying that goes \"You will fight the way you will train.\" I don\'t what that means to most, but I know what it means to me. I was very concerned because the students I have (over 275 now at home base by the way) came to my school because I preached \"personal protection\" and here I was diluting the message and they didn\'t know better at the time
because, well, I was the authority figure who told them that what we were doing works in a real violent confrontation.
I had a social responsibility and I was failing Matt(Thorton). This burned me inside. I had cops, bouncers, undercover security personnel, body
guards etc. amongst my students who put their lives in my hands, trusting that what I was imparting with them would help them get back to their families at the end of the day. If what they were doing failed in scenario replications Matt, how in God\'s name would it work in real life?
I then changed how I taught things. MMA still remained as a big part of what we taught but the way in which I taught it changed dramatically. I won\'t get into how it changed, suffice it to say that those who have been exposed to my work know but it did and the message
remained intact. The integrity of what I was delivering my students remained intact. No compromising. When someone now walks into my school and says they want to compete, I send them to another school down the
street. I don\'t lie, I don\'t pretend, I don\'t try and make a quick buck of the guy. However if they enter the school down the street and ask for personal protection skills, they won\'t be sent my way... instead, they are told \"we do that too.\"
Matt, you probably make more money than I do and will probably always make much more money that I ever will, I have no issues or problems with that whatsoever. I wish you all the best and all the success in the world and I mean that from the bottom of my heart my
friend.
Here\'s where I stand. In the last 5 years I have refused franchising (although I would have made a killing off of it), I have only accepted 2 to 4 people at a time for my affiliation program when I get over 50 applicants per year on average, do the math, I charge $1000 USD per person for affiliation, had I accepted the 50 people, I would have made 50 grand US in one weekend dude. It\'s not about that. I have to get to know each person on my team personally. When someone comes for affiliation with me, it\'s not in a board room with a slide show and a power point presentation, it is personal and one on one. Why? Because what I teach deals with human life, compromise that for money and,
well... I have refused to be on the cover of martial arts magazines because they wanted me to pose for the cover in some ridiculous pose with an angry looking face... so to be extremely honest with you Matt, expansion isn\'t my goal. Quality is. Now I\'m not accusing you or anyone of this, I am just telling you my position based on your email and post here, nothing more, nothing less my friend so please don\'t take this as a criticism of you or anyone else for that matter.
As for the \"clowns\" bit... Matt, as I stated before, MP has more experience on the field than most martial artists, fighters, etc. I have ever met and this includes some of the top names in our field.Anyone who views him as a clown has never faced violence or even has a
concern about it so if they skip our forum or my materials, then they weren\'t really interested or ready for it to begin with. I\'m not here to change anyone\'s mind or \'convert\' them to my ways. Hundreds of
people are alive today because of my work, that\'s good enough for me.
My forum has cops, lawyers, authors, doctors, military personnel, bodyguards, ex soldiers and more on it. If what you said were true (which it may be for some, grant it) then this would be an empty forum.
I have a cop from NYC and a special forces DT trainer from the UK coming for affiliation with me this August... they don\'t seem to think of us as clowns. Like I said, most people on this forum have faced and slain the dragon on more than one occasion and not in the ring bro...if MP\'s post gave you such a bad impression (and I can assure you every word is true as I have known the man for over 13 years now) then God bless you Matt because you\'ve never faced real violence and I can only
commend you and hope you never, ever do. I stabbed a man with his own knife through his thigh once after he tried to kill me with it... it sucked. I puked when I got home. But I got home. Nothing glamorous about it. I did it trying to save two young women he and a friend were
harassing late one evening. Pretty? No. Wish it never happened. But it did and that\'s the reality of it. I was attacked by 4 guys one night a few years ago, probably one of the worst night of life Matt. They were armed and I walked out cut in 2 different places. I didn\'t box, I
didn\'t grapple, I didn\'t do anything that remotely resembles anything taught in the majority of the martial arts taught out there... it was feral, brutal and I can\'t even remember half of it. All I know is that I did allot of repulsive damage, ears were torn off, eyes were gouged
out, lips were ripped open and dangling from the jaws, blood was everywhere. Cops showed up, paramedics showed up, I went home. Not one take down, not one submission hold, not a single punch thrown on my
part (although I took a few punches including 2 cuts from broken bottles.) Pretty? No. Real? Yes. I wouldn\'t wish it on anyone, ever. In contrast however, I have defused many more potential situations than I
have had go physical...In contrast to all this Matt, you stated you regretted posting on a forum like mine, I am sorry to hear about that. Honestly. I sincerely hope that it didn\'t tarnish your reputation and that posting on the
underground JKD forum where posts like \"Scenario training\" and Mr. Tanswell and others pop up ridiculing the way most LEO, DT trainers,military personnel train is more suitable for your image. This is not meant facetiously either Matt. This is just to say that the nature of any and every forum is as such. No forum is perfect and only caters to utopian discussions and every once in a while some crap pops up and we try to deal with it as best we can... hey, at least you won\'t see any can Brucel Lee beat Van Damme threads here ...
...sincerely
Rich Dimitri

Possible Richie, given one central nervous system to Excell in both combative sport and RBSD skills without crossing neural wires?
W

You cannot serve two masters...

maaaan... you CAN... but have you ever tried playing tennis and racquetball on consecutive (im so ghetto) days?

the fact is it does screw you up

Dr Richard Grannon scientific theory of ninja skill acquisition/development : its the similarity that screws you


when i was a kid i lived in portugal, i spoke fluent portuguese, came back to uk and started learning italian, german and spanish...

the spanish WIPED OUT the portuguese- they are just too similar, I can still read it , but if I hear it now it sounds like Russian to me!

But could I not learn portuguese and spanish? of course I could

Could I not learn to play two raquetbased games with equal skill? of course I could

Have I got the time? Oh hell no!

You could develop the two skills separately but it would be tricky and its hard to imagine that one isnt going to be at least a bit detrimental to the other. If for no other reason than its wasting the training time you could be spending focussing on just one skill.

Warren I read the RD post after I posted... whats it in response to??

Richie

Quote :

You could develop the two skills separately but
it would be tricky and its hard to imagine that one isnt going to be at
least a bit detrimental to the other. If for no other reason than its
wasting the training time you could be spending focussing on just one
skill.

Ahso Richie, I've experienced this ie. after I had become proficient in shooting using the isosceles stance, I begain to train shooting from Weaver stance...And my groupings firing from both stances while plinking ...I'd be thinking( Isosceles is more natural, but weaver offers less of a target profile)=confusion, lousy groupings ..Ur explaining makes perfect sense however for LEs and others who have to learn both methods of shooting to enhance their chances of going home safe to their family.

Quote :

Warren I read the RD post after I posted... whats it in response to??

u mean the post by Rich D? It was a response to a the head instructor of an mma system named Matt Thorton who claimes to teach SP, yet states that Force on Force scenario training is USELESS (how LE, military, RBSD, doctors, nurses fireman etc. train) ...and lumps all RBSD practioners/ instructors as extreme right wing gun loving cameo military wannabes...Oh , as u surely know, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one

nite Richie...
W

Quote :

Warren I read the RD post after I posted... whats it in response to?

A tiff, between Rich D's oldest RBSD instructor and Matt Thorton of SBG, a mma system that states that Force on Force training is useless, yet still claims to teach RBSD

[quote]Matt Thorton of SBG
"As to the
marketing and public access of such information. . .and the negative
stereotypes that are often made of RBSD people as "goofy" or
emotionally unstable. . .the posts speak for themselves. If Senshido
ever wants to expand into areas where they attract more professional
clients, or attract a larger share of the real market, you will have to
take a hard look at posts like this:



"I was thinking back on fight enders I applied:



-I tore a guy's nose off and beat his head into the curb side

-I threw a guy down an bent his leg as he was getting up, just a stomp

-I grounded a guy's head on the pavement holding him by the hair as I
was punting him in the head with my boot (man I was flexible back then)

-I stabbed a guy through the cheek..."



malevolent preacher





Posts like that will keep away any
real clients, or larger business interests. Anyone seriously involved
in Military, LE, or Government work will not post on, or be part of any
organization that speaks that way. And no serious RBSD professional
will want association with it.



To be honest, now that I have seen such a post I regrets making any
appearance on this forum at all. It only puts us in a negative light to
even be on the same board as such things. And I can promise you it
makes those real professionals who may view your board immediately
brand him, you, and the group as clowns.



I mean this in the best way possible, it's just VERY bad in every sense of the word.



So the next time you wonder why people see RBSD advocates as often
attracting angry, fearful, bitter, and insecure men. . .then stop, read
some of the posts for yourself and wake up.
....'"

Quote :

MP wrote..
"OK Thornton! I will get more customer "Real as
you say... By telling them BS about fights? What do you think? You want
me to paint a picture that will bring in buseness? Like YOU do with
MMA?


The fact is: Your organization is confused about RBSD. Read your
articles!I will not go out and make myself more marketable by telling
an already confused public something that is false.


This is dangerous what YOU are doing. You have obviously never been in
a real fight. Your last post proves it. You are painting your sugar
coated perception through MMA filters. It does not happen like that. I
suspect you are in your late 20s early 30s at most. You are great at
what you do, tarining MMA fighters and you are a dangerous quack by
leading the regular joes into thinking they are learning RBSD because
you don't want to lose the buseness.


I nearly fell off my chair when I read that bit about attracting customers. Reality stings.


Advice: take or leave it, I don't give a $hit. continue your wonderful work with your fighters and leave RBSD to the experts


OR


Refocus and clarify your mission statement as oppose to try to
attract 2 different kind of buseness, with 2 separate goals using the
same syllabus.



This forum has contributors who did stuff like craddle a 19 year
old'head as he bled to death. I had a bottle jammed in the back of my
head in a massive bar brawl, some contributors here have been shot at,
stabbed and some are currently published authors/trainers of LEO. The
viewership here does not walk around wearing "tap out" paraphenelia and
does not care about who won the latest UFC.



We have grand fathers, mothers, engeneers, lawyers, LEOS, professionel
door/security people. We share the same view, we care about the bottom
line. Am I coming home or not. Those people are result driven, focused,
as much as your fighters are about their sports. They have the same
dedication."

W


"

without wanting to get involved in someone elses argument that has probably been long put to bed

Quote :

To be honest, now that I have seen such a post I regrets making any
appearance on this forum at all. It only puts us in a negative light to
even be on the same board as such things. And I can promise you it
makes those real professionals who may view your board immediately
brand him, you, and the group as clowns.



I mean this in the best way possible, it's just VERY bad in every sense of the word.

I honestly think whoever wrote this

a. has never been in a street fight
(so what?? fair play to him- but then how much of an authority on teaching it can he be? another question for another day)

b. there is a slightly hysterical undertone that I am all too familiar with - he sounds frightened and intimidated by the descriptions of violence- this getting uppity and stuttering about professionalism is a lame position to adopt. Its not about professionalism, its about fear

HOWEVER

I personally probably wouldnt let descriptions of ultraviolence type posts stay afloat on the forum NOT because Im scared of losing potentially profitable clients but because of losing potential "normal folk" who would see us as a bunch of scary nutters

Is this dishonest?

Yeah kind of.

I see street focussed training as a kind of seduction whereby I slowly acclimatise people to a stark reality: if you ever actually genuinely are forced to defend yourself unarmed against a determined attacker (AN EXTREMELY RARE SCENARIO FOR MOST PEOPLE LIVING NORMAL LIVES IF WE ARE HONEST) you will probably have to do things that normal people find very very unpalatable. Well they certainly SHOULD find it unpalatable!

I still get people at seminars saying "I just couldnt attack someones eyes"... it makes me laugh... inside I think "well then you've never been scared that you are going to be beaten to death by a gang of idiots then have you???"

Simple- they havent been pushed. Havent had the experience. Fair enough!. T

hey are imagining in the comfort of their living room what it might be like and going "eeeew gross, its all sticky..."

But when it goes wrong, and your other strategies are failing and you are becoming coldly aware that you are losing , you wont think twice. If you've been there, you know this is true.

Most normal people living in the civilsed world have never had a fight in their adult lives- why would they??

Im not down with the "super gory overexposure" on your first lesson technique (usually prevalent in womens self defense classes? like they need more of a reality check than men??? hahaha!)

It just frightens people... they are already scared.

Softly, softly draw them toward learning a behaviour pattern that goes against everything we as humans are trained to do since birth.

Its a tight rope that we all have to walk as instructors:

too gory = frightened clients (and instructors by the sound of it!)

too mild = not being honest about what protecting yourself MIGHT (if you are very unlucky) entail

Quote :

ma system named Matt Thorton who claimes to teach SP, yet states that Force on Force scenario training is USELESS

how do you define "force on force" training?
that sounds like non compliance to me... and an MMA instructor literally can NOT believe that noncompliant training is useless, it defies the very nature of MMA and offends the structure of the universe