The "Buccaneer Scholar", 'self education' for adults..?

I'm in the process of dropping out of education again (Uni this time..), and as if by coincidence was made aware of *THIS* bloke by MarkH in *this* thread.

I'm a Sixth Form & Uni dropout, and have no idea what I'd like to do for the next 60 years of my life (I think very few of us do). Motivation and self-discipline are the problem, but I've found that whenever it comes to learning for a purpose i'm quite capable. At the moment i'm reading up on basic mechanics (theory) due to getting a new car, and read a full book on welding when there was a possibility of having to fix a van up for a mate. Both of these subjects I found technically interesting. I'm very capable when it comes to learning, but my motivation is always nil unless i'm specifically interested in the subject in hand.

Aside from personal impressions about the author, is it possible to self-educate yourself to a skill level that makes you employable in a field you'd enjoy working in? Practical (hands on) training is vastly more important than theory, but is it possible to learn so much theory that you can hop back on the education wagon to get specific certificates etc..?

Sticky subject, and i'm by no means saying that it's wise to forego formal education or qualifications. But if there's a chance.. I'm straining at the leash to get stuck into something and i'd exploit it to it's full potential.

If anyone's read the book do they mind telling me if it's worth buying (as a guide)? Or if it's more just a presentation of theory by the author. Many thanks, Mike.

(I've had a look at the Amazon reviews, but they are less specific to the question above)

Im an advocate of self education

in fact I would say self education is the only form, schools and teachers merely provide an evironment in which self education can occur

I know a bit about the subject, having taught meself loads of things that people then paid me for, including how to teach and how to learn

my job up until a few years ago was training school students how to learn and teachers how to teach, what a whacky 2 and a half years that was

Quote :

Aside from personal impressions about the author, is it possible to self-educate yourself to a skill level that makes you employable in a field you'd enjoy working in? Practical (hands on) training is vastly more important than theory, but is it possible to learn so much theory that you can hop back on the education wagon to get specific certificates etc..?

yes and yes


as long as your not kidding yourself or kidding anyone else about what you are genuinely capable of OR your paper qualifications its all gravy

(see how I distinguished "capability" and "qualification"?- this from the man on whose forum you write who has not a qualification to instruct to his name? did I mention Im an advocate of self education? )

Mike 2010,

I originally became interested in this book due to my youngest daughters difficulties with school. She is very bright , but had a hard time in school due dis-interest and boredom. She is continuing her education through a non-traditional path. The thing about this book is it does lay out some alternate thoughts on education and learning that are proving not on useful to her(I gave her a copy to read), but serves to motivate her to pursue her interests to create a path of employment/success.


Keep safe and train hard/smart, Mark H

Thanks for the quick replies guys, genuine food for thought here and very er.. run out of words now.. emancipating? Enlightening.

Encouraging!

Edit: Thanks again for passing on the idea Mark.

good luck Mike2010,

my situation was similar and different. i have dyslexia, and i have the same 'need to
be interested' mode to put for that above average effort for my slow reading skills.
my IQ--not that it matters, was up past 142 consistantly, and other so called indicators
of culturally accepted smartipantness.

at first i was taking courses that slatted me for oceanography/marine-science, then suddenly
had some vision of m'self, testing dirty water samples in a room full of nerds...instead of
diving with jaques-somebody-or-other, and the camera rolling. it was, "end of..." for desire to
continue. even as it helped me 'not at all', i enrolled in anthropology JUST to make me finish.
in this country, even as i also ascribe to self education, that degree is the first indicator that
folks can take you seriously. i used it to walk into a completely unrelated field. hmmm
...so find your favorite subject if you're going back, AND self educate yourself,
my humble 2p.

I agree that you can't know what you want to do, and who knows if you'll spend 60 years doing the same thing. I certainly did not.
I love learning 'stuff'. I find it interesting to research and investigate things I don't know about, but as you say, it has to be a subject that grabs your attention, though this subject may or may not be able to 'pay the rent' as it were.
That's the tricky part.
I'm personally irritated with the lack of respect for blue collar work and craftsmen in particular. I have huge respect for highly skilled mechanics, welders and carpenters etc. Back in the day you apprenticed to a journeyman and learned by doing. IMO it's one of the best ways of learning, especially if you can find a really high quality individual to show you the ropes.
I am hugely 'overqualified' for the job I do, at least in most peoples' eyes, but as it turns out I like to be physically active, which is probably why I ended up with a physical job (painting and decorating/construction). It also is very satisfying, and feels like I am accomplishing something 'real' in the world. It also means I can geek out on my martial arts passion instead of being stuck behind a desk!
I can't say that I would still do this job if I could afford not to, but as a way of paying my way through life it's awesome for me.

Not really answering you self learning question, but I guess I'm saying don't limit your thinking about how to make your way through life to the 'box' society puts around what life should be, or what has status, or is worthy.
Whatever you choose to do, do well. Have pride in it, and be the best you can be.

markh wrote:

I originally became interested in this book due to my youngest daughters difficulties with school. She is very bright , but had a hard time in school due dis-interest and boredom. She is continuing her education through a non-traditional path. The thing about this book is it does lay out some alternate thoughts on education and learning that are proving not on useful to her(I gave her a copy to read), but serves to motivate her to pursue her interests to create a path of employment/success.

at the risk of sounding wilfully controversial

1. the "traditional path" is a total waste of time, having tried to work within it then around it I got so frustrated in the end I just left (and they say the UK has the best education system in the world! its scandalous!!)

in my humble opinion children who do well in this system do well despite of it not because of it- I too struggled due to mind numbing boredom, your daughter is lucky to have a dad so open minded about education and who also recognises that...

2. there is no clear objective to education any more! MarkH has specifically said "serves to motivate her to pursue her interests to create a path of employment/success." um, that sounds like an objective, well I couldnt find anyone in the 300 schools I worked with who could give me a clear concise objective to the education process suasage machine they were squeezing the kids through

-is it to make them good obedient little worker bees capable of being force fed so they can spew back out on demand?

- or is it to make them happy succesful psychologically healthy, aware, balanced, useful, contributing members of society who have the capacity to think?

well

we all know the answer to that one I think

good for you MarkH, if there were more parents like you I genuinely beleive the world would be a better place

vote Richie for Predident of the United States of Europe: "because kids need to know stuff for the future and things"

ah by the way, gotta tip the hat again to Stephen Fry again, who this section is named after

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-is it to make them good obedient little worker bees capable of being force fed so they can spew back out on demand?

Bingo!

Oh, thought I'd just throw this in here to show off; I've met Johnny Vegas (the fat guy in the video above) How cool am I?

Anyway, back on subject...

Beyond being just a fan of self education, I positively hate the world of academia. I'm pretty much self educated. I don't know anybody else who ever skipped school as much as me. In my last year, I was actually absent more days than I was present. Reasons? Apart from having a weak-willed mum who I had wrapped around my little finger (yeah, I wasn't a very good son until she was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer) to whom I would simply say "I'm not going today" and the fact that I had the sneaking-out-of-school abilities of a ninja (seriously, don't ever play hide and seek with me, I really am a ninja. shhh...), but like Russ I'm probably dickslexeek (is that how you spell it )

I was never actually diagnosed, but several teachers tried to get me in to special classes etc. I told them to kindly fuck off. They thought I must have been bunking school so I could smoke crack or something (well, maybe weed) but what they didn't quite realize is that I was just at home reading encyclopedias and watching the discovery channel (and later surfing the net for info on eastern philosophy). Oh and doing solo training of course.

Anyway, on some level I knew I was doing the right thing. And now I know more about how the system works, I know it was the best choice I ever made. I grew up faster and went out into the real world before any of my friends (95% of which are totally out of my life now) I started working straight away (after the army told me to F off) and have been ever since. People are often surprised to know that I'm only 26 and that I have almost NO formal education to speak of. I think I got about 2 maybe 3 GCSEs (leaving school grades).

The dilemma for me is that my son is rapidly growing toward school age. And I'm seriously looking for alternatives. Home schooling? Any advice MarkH?

And what about if one wants to become a doctor or scientist? Then surely the 'traditional' path is a must? (Richie?)

And just to throw something else into the conversation....

Learning difficulties, Dyslexia, ADD, ADHD... what a load of shit! Just because somebody has a brain that is right-side (hemisphere?) dominant doesn't mean that they are having difficulties. It just means they're not supposed to be number-crunching categorizing robot worker bees.

God forbid that a kid might actually have some creative energy in them. Who wants to live in a world that has individuals who are capable of expressing themselves creatively? What nightmare that would be

And on the subject of left/right brain hemispheres... any left handed folk in the house?

Sharif H wrote:

God forbid that a kid might actually have some creative energy in them. Who wants to live in a world that has individuals who are capable of expressing themselves creatively? What nightmare that would be

Exactly... I wonder how many brilliant minds they have smothered here in the states with all the add meds they hand out like candy?

Sharif H wrote:

And on the subject of left/right brain hemispheres... any left handed folk in the house?

Interesting question coming from a righty, or is the picture reversed or do you just shoot right handed? Dam that's too many questions in one sentence.

roadkill wrote:

Sharif H wrote:

God forbid that a kid might actually have some creative energy in them. Who wants to live in a world that has individuals who are capable of expressing themselves creatively? What nightmare that would be

Exactly... I wonder how many brilliant minds they have smothered here in the states with all the add meds they hand out like candy?

Sharif H wrote:

And on the subject of left/right brain hemispheres... any left handed folk in the house?

Interesting question coming from a righty, or is the picture reversed or do you just shoot right handed? Dam that's too many questions in one sentence.

I'm both. Write / draw (i.e use a pencil) with my left. But all things combative and sport-like - right handed. Oh and with cooking I'm right-handed (chopping, stiring etc)

Interestingly, with eating I use a fork with my left, but if I'm eating with my hands (Bangali style) I use my right.

One of the biggest failings of modern schooling IMHO is the direct linking of learning/schooling, to work and getting a job.
OK so we've all got to function in society, read, write, add up etc, but if there are no jobs, or they are shite, or society just wants factory drones, then why learn anything, if the job is the only reason you are there?
Now, if on the other hand, becoming a creative member of the planet is your goal, then learning takes on a whole different flavour, and becomes a way of exploring and understanding how to contribute something to this 'ere place we live.
I interact with a martial arts friend who was a school teacher in Alaska for a while, who had constant fights with admin about his perceived 'wayward' teaching style. I agree when he says that one of the best things, if not THE thing, you can, and should teach children, is critical thinking.

First to Sharif H,

Talk with your son regularly, try to keep him mentally challenged, and watch him while he learns/figres things out and then ask him how he figured things out. Doing this may give you clues as to how he proesses information and learns. If he does go to public school stay engaged in his learning. I was lucky enough wiht my oldest daughter that she thrived at school because of some teachers and in spite of others and eventually graduated as validictorian of a class of 300 students ( yes I'm a proud dad), but this was because she is a dangerous combination of intelligence and self motivation with a passion for reading (that part I can take some responsibility for).

The younger is more of a free spirit (she's just turned seventeen) with a sharp wit, raw intelligence, strong willed with the nack for questioning why (particularlly from authority including me) she doesn't thrive within structure, but flourishes when given an objective without being told how to achieve it.

If you take the home schooling route you will need to make sure he gets opportunities to gain skills in socialization through interaction with peers as well as keeping the curicicullum challenging. Here in the states we also have the computer based learning option with several variations. Again at your son's age you will need to ensure social opportunities.

Always stay supportive, but when they ask to try something new make sure you make an agreement to stick with it for a predetermined length of time, otherwise they won't learn the value of perseverence.

Finally, don't talk down to your kids. Explain things to the best of their understanding and they will learn to trust you and your decisions more. (They may not like what they hear but they will respect you for not feeding them BS). I always taught my kids to answer questions not just respond to them, and always try to listen and understanding what is said before answering or giving their opinions.

Ultimately though you can completely ignore me and find your own way, but the one thing I can say is be part of the process because as the article Maija posted you never know 'Who is Training Whom' and you might just learn as much from him as he learns from you.

Keep safe and train hard/smart, Mark H

maija wrote:

I agree when he says that one of the best things, if not THE thing, you can, and should teach children, is critical thinking.

If you teach someone to ask themselves why they do things, I can't help but feel they will start to ask themselves why others do things. Which is a Good Thing.


I'm a bit fresher out of school than everybody here, but on the subject of the other thread (always pushing your boundaries), may I say that I was always pushed up to the age of 12. I was one of the top of my class.

When I then went to Secondary school there was nothing in place to compete with the level of teaching I had previously received. In the UK you don't get divided into skills-groups until the age of 15.
I literally learnt nothing in the first two years there, and at the same time had almost limitless freedom.

Somebody who is intelligent yet untested will soon learn to exploit the system, and that's exactly what I did for the next.. Well i'm still doing it. It's crippled my career prospects because for the last 8 years (teenage years being probably the most important in terms of self-reliance and self-discipline), all I have learnt is how to avoid doing work. I am extremely good at making rapport with authority figures though..

Possibly this is more of a home/environmental thing rather than educational, but I was imagining the other night what could have happened if I'd gone to a Public (private) School instead. I really have no idea what my parents expected of me, and why they criticized every educational shortcoming since becoming a teenager. (I have 10 GCSE's by the way, despite all that. Mostly A's or B's).

By the way Sharif you are one extraordinary man (actually everyone that posts here is, for one reason or another). I bet being ambidextrous really helps in bed, eh?

MarkH

Thanks very much for your wisdom. There's actually quite a bit to think about in there. One thing is for sure - I'll always be highly involved in his schooling. As subtly as possible I guess. I wouldn't want him to feel I was controlling him or his life

Mike, you're a pretty extraordinary cat your self. Your ability to step outside of your head and observe your self and your life from an outside perspective is what pretty much guarantees you will be successful in the things you do but most importantly HAPPY throughout your life.

This may be a little off-topic for this thread, but the self observation means that you don't fully identify with your egoic mind... which is rare in this crazy world. To get a better understanding of what that means I highly recommend The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle (when you get the time to read it of course)

RE: the ambidextrous thing... yes. yes it does

I've just read the introduction.

It is.. Unsettling but in the same way that always is when something bypasses the conscious. The last time I felt like this was when using Richards visualisations cd, and before that with some Paul McKenna stuff.

Please accept a huge thanks Sharif!


Now where was I.. oh yes, 'Welcome to the rabbit hole, Alice'

Sharif H,

Are you right eye dominant? That would explain the use of the right hand for targeting related activities like shooting and throwing. Just asking because your picture looks that way , what with the weapon more centered to that eye and the slight lean to the weapon. Good luck with the education thing with your son.

Mike 2010,

Just remember something my grandmother told me when I was young ( by the way she was a teacher by proffession),

"The day you stop learning is the day you start dying"

this quote and a passion for reading are the two most important things she ever gave me.

Keep safe and train hard/smart, Mark H

I'm all for self-education.









Maybe investing in a couple more bookshelves would be an idea...

Mike2010 wrote:

Aside from personal impressions about the author, is it possible to self-educate yourself to a skill level that makes you employable in a field you'd enjoy working in? Practical (hands on) training is vastly more important than theory, but is it possible to learn so much theory that you can hop back on the education wagon to get specific certificates etc..?

Sticky subject, and i'm by no means saying that it's wise to forego formal education or qualifications. But if there's a chance.. I'm straining at the leash to get stuck into something and i'd exploit it to it's full potential.

Knowledge is knowledge. Formal schooling is all about red tape. And ironically, in the zest for qualification of knowledge, actual understanding of material often suffers.

The conveyor-belt world most people live in has very little to offer me. Maybe creature-comforts and the safety of habit. But I find it disgusting. Their models of the world are not useful to me. It is essentially pathetic. A very domesticated world. If all they want is to graze all day and let that be the story of their lives, then fuck them. I am in pursuit of personal power and excellence. To exist on another level entirely. Shit, I'm only 24 but I'm beginning to look at people with old-man's-eyes. Pah! I know better than to kid myself with that kind of talk.

Back on topic. You talk about what to do. I assume work. There are two reasons for working. Business or pleasure. You either just enjoy it or do it to finance yourself. Most professions these days will require you to get qualified through schooling. But remember; business or pleasure. A profession is secondary to that.

Communication is basically salesmanship. Selling your ideas in conversations, persuading people and so on. And money is the fuel of your life. Both can be self-taught and applied without needing to be qualified by anyone. Read up on selling and how all things money work and that can really get you somewhere.

The more I learn about the members of this forum, the more extraordinary you all become. Invaluable advice Rich, even more books will be arriving at my house next week.

Mark

Yep, I'm right-eye dominant. And thanks again!

RichardB

You're only 24 too? Still, that's no excuse for being so untidy! Get some book shelves dude! If you check out the videos on the link in the first post of this thread that Buccaneering scholar guy has a really cool revolving bookshelf. I'm looking into to getting one! Looks like it saves a lot of space.

Mike2010 wrote:

I've just read the introduction.

It is.. Unsettling but in the same way that always is when something bypasses the conscious. The last time I felt like this was when using Richards visualisations cd, and before that with some Paul McKenna stuff.

Please accept a huge thanks Sharif!


Now where was I.. oh yes, 'Welcome to the rabbit hole, Alice'

Oh, forgot to mention that Tolle also gave a big FUCK YOU to the schooling system when he was a teenager.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtNEanQrjjg

Ok all please have patience with me because all of this education talk has suddenly taken a sudden turn for me in my thought process.

A little background on me. I'm a 48 year old man who did some substantial world travel (mostly in the early 1980's) who managed a college education (degree in criminal justice). Married with children, divorced remarried (the love of my life) with two more step children. I have going on 22 years in law enforcement preceded by several interesting jobs running from auto mechanic, investment counselor, high steel construction, and assistant to an MIT electrical engineer. I have been an avid reader since age four (thanks Grandma) and have a high level of retention.

Now recently I have been concerned about what is going on in my chosen field of endeavor since my fellow officers throughout the U.S. have been making more and more mistakes in judgment and abuses of power. I've been giving this a lot of thought trying to figure out what’s going on. Then I transitioned to considering the field of education and slowly it seems to be coming into focus. You see in my youth it seems both fields did a pretty good job of meeting their goals.

Now I know aspects of both jobs have changed such as laws governing how to accomplish the goals when in fact the two most important changes appear to be the two following things.

1) The goals themselves.
Police work became law enforcement changing from a system of justice to a legal system and conformity.

Teaching transitioned from education to indoctrination and conformity. (See a common thread here)

2) The people themselves.
In the case of both fields they were respected and both were callings ( people went into them from a sense of duty and a passion for the field in spite of conditions and low pay) that became occupations attracting people to the improved money and benefits.

Sorry for the shifting from educational theory to why the change in the profession, but does anyone have any insights or opinions. Thanks in advance.

Keep safe and train hard/smart, Mark H

RichardB wrote

Quote :

Shit, I'm only 24 but

say what now?

Quote :

Sorry for the shifting from educational theory to why the change in the profession, but does anyone have any insights or opinions. Thanks in advance

not really,
other than the education system in the Uk is chocka with people who became teachers because they didnt know what else to do and that is a BIG let down for the kids- if your there for the money, you shouldnt fucking be there

I imagine its the same with the police, I never got in, but I imagine its the type of role that you do need to care about

other possible reasons other than an agenda of social conformity...

a tendency for modern western culture to breed selfish, materialistic, narcisstic, self centred, uncaring sociopaths who have no sense of community or contribution and no value beyond that which is immediately and personally gratifying

in reading about narcisstic personality disorder I came across the term "moral autism"

its a good term, describes the tendency we see now perfectly:
over achievement issues, neurotic competitiveness, back stabbing, manipulation, back door methods first, every man for himself attitudes and a view that "everyone is my enemy and the world is out to get me", the world is hostile and harsh, so I must be hostile and harsh to survive, do unto others before it is done unto you

(an attitudinal trap that SP heads can sometimes fall into, be wary)

should people who lean that way really be policing us and teaching our children?

if people who have been infected with the greed and hostility virus, symptoms including a ansty case of "moral autism", then join the ranks of new officers as the old guard retires are you likely to see an increase in abuses of power and shitty decision making?

dont get me started on how the education system crushes critical thinking skills

anyway, it just a theory

I put it to yous for your consideration

Wow - There are alot of great thoughts here - Here's some more to add to the conversation:

"Moral Autism" - nice term, but why is it so?
Did this become a tendency in society because of a lack of trust? In authority? In others? Or perhaps fear?
Did that lack of trust stem from the glorification of the individual above the group? The acceptance of the pursuit of power and money for self gain as the main goals in life? Survival of the fittest as 'the rule of the jungle' above all else?
Did this perception that everyone is out for themselves create an environment where everyone is perceived to be working 'an angle' and so not to be trusted .....? And so the circle goes.
Point being, if we all seem to be 'out for ourselves', no individual can be trusted to work for the 'common good', because there is no 'common good'.

markh quote:
"1) The goals themselves.
Police work became law enforcement changing from a system of justice to a legal system and conformity.

Teaching transitioned from education to indoctrination and conformity. (See a common thread here)"

This is very insightful IMHO. Perhaps this change from justice to law enforcement in it's literal sense - i.e. taking the individual out of the process - is a consequence of this lack of trust?
Perhaps this conformity in schools is also a product of this lack of trust - taking the individuals out of the process - as a form of control?

I don't have much time here, so this is not put together real well, but to add one more thing.
There are obviously many people questioning this path out there - one direction is clamping down more and more controls on the system to keep 'stable' - (Fear?)
But there is also research in the other direction, looking at natural ecosystems for instance, that survival of the fittest is not the only way nature works. For instance, I have a botanist friend who studies rainforest trees and flowers. She says that her conclusion is that an ecosystem working well, produces way more flowers and seeds etc than is necessary for individual plant reproduction, and that her theory is that the members of the ecosystem 'understand' that abundance gives the system the best chance for survival.
It seems obvious that humans survived for millenia as groups. It will be interesting to see if we can gain back that trust of working together again ...?

More thoughts later