"DIRTY TRICKS"

hi all!

as it says ont he tin really. what would you say are your fav or worest dirty tricks? what has helped you in the past? what have you seen being used? what ARE the tricks that you would need to know for the street?

i think we could get a lot said about this really.

hope you enjoy

DT

Dirty tricks...

First thoughts are along the lines of "there's no trick to it" and that one shouldn't rely on tricks. Secondly, dirty tricks tend to require the target expecting fair play. You need rules in order to cheat. But there's validity to the concept.

Mainly it seems to be about doing the unexpected. Or creating one expectation only to set them up. Most of these things are part and parcel of the idea of the pre-emptive strike. The sucker-punch. Which has become so mainstream that it's no longer percieved as a dirty trick. Of course, you can argue that there are no dirty tricks in a real fight as there are no rules of conduct. But it has the mechanics of a dirty trick.

I've found many people reflexively accept a handshake when offered. At least if it is in a social context. I did it to a guy when he and his mate were setting me up for a beating (they were still in a conversation mode). I said something like "Hey, I know you man..." don't ask me what I did, as it was before I began thinking about de-escalation and sneaky manipulation. In hindsight it must have been some kind of play on vanity with a rapport effect. Anyway, that suddenly made the main man into drinking buddy for the night, while his friend still hadn't heard and came from the side grabbing me by the jacket. He looked real confused.

No fight ensued of that but there's a few nasty things you can do from a handshake. I know there are a few things in WW2 combatives material based on that. A kind of high-powered hanshake jerking, pulling thing for instance. I read a news article a few years ago where a woman did that to someone in a courtroom, nearly dislocating the arm of the victim. It's got potential. Then there's pulling people off balance and of course putting pressure on the elbow, locking or breaking if needed. That's one idea.

In the fight... Dirty tricks in a free-for-all doesen't sound right, but if we redefine it to be "unexpected stuff." Then stepping on the foot and pushing someone into a fall might be of value, and is likely to lead to a broken ankle if you're able to pin the foot down good. There are more severe variations of that one but I think it would be very hard to pull them off when the fight is on and people are moving. Stepping on the foot though should be reasonably within a normal person's ability.

Few years ago my ass... I got the memory of a... uh... I can't remember. What was I saying again? Anyway, here's the news article. The WW2 stuff is in Fairbairn's "get tough." Although it may be elsewhere as well. I think the case in the news article was just plain old vicious instinct. With strength, training and ill-will you might get more out of it.

Quote :

Handshake Sends Attorney to Jail

February 9, 2008 - 3:53pm

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (AP) - A lawyer has been charged with assault for shaking a federal prosecutor's hand so hard, authorities said, that it injured her shoulder.

Kathy Brewer Rentas, 49, was arrested Thursday after attending a court hearing for her husband, who was accused of violating the terms of his probation for a cocaine distribution case. The husband, Anthony Rentas, was sentenced to 90 days of house arrest.

After the hearing, Brewer Rentas asked to shake hands with Assistant U.S. Attorney Jennifer Keene.

A court security officer reported that Brewer Rentas shook Keene's hand so forcefully that the prosecutor's arm was nearly ripped out of its socket.
"With Keene in hand, Brewer made an upward, then a quick downward motion and pulled Keene toward the ground moving her forward, almost causing Keene to fall to the ground," Deputy U.S. Marshall Robert Kremenik Jr. wrote in an arrest report.

"Assaulting a federal officer is something that we will take very seriously and prosecute vigorously," said Alicia Valle, a U.S. Attorney's Office spokeswoman. "As a member of the bar, she should know better."
Brewer Rentas' attorney, Gwendolyn Tuggle, told the South Florida Sun-Sentinel her client never meant to hurt Keene.

Brewer Rentas spent a night in jail and was freed Friday on $100,000 bail. She was ordered to stay away from Keene and undergo a psychological evaluation to determine whether she needs counseling.

Brewer Rentas works as a commercial litigation attorney for a law firm in Hollywood, Fla. If convicted, she faces up to a year in prison and could be penalized by the Florida Bar.

(Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.)

BTW it seemed pertinent to note that this is an example of attacking someone in a soft state.

unexpected script rewrites/behavioral patterns.

ones i did:
walk up and fire away--calm walk up, no hesitation is one thing, no telegraphing just really brings
it all together. i knew it was going that way. i've done this twice. once whilst laughing with the guy
making fun of me, then all of a sudden. another time ending with a sweeping low round that made
the guy sideways before he hit the ground. from nothing, something.

ones i think about doing:
saying a phrase that carries with it expectations of completion that everyone sort of knows... or
knows where it should be headed, if not exactly at least in terms of whether or not it sounds like
a finished thought...
"look mate, i don't really wanna ffff----boom"
"please please, i don't want any tr--boom"
"if it's money that you want, i have--boom"

haven't tried this either but i reckon it seems sound:
feigning like you're about to run away, then running into the person. that's gotta work,
i've done a feign in another way. fake low front kick that never makes it in, followed by an immediate
fast jab. i have that in my head when i'm nervous that someone is relatively fast. fast folk will contort,
committing their bodies.

people sort of expect hands--even in this age. so hands on, then the head or the elbow. that's got to still carry some weight. hands on for a moment for range--imploring something or other. i do things like that in drills, yet to happen otherwise. what RichardB said reminded me of something. i've had my hand grabbed and really put the pressure on that thumb--funny to watch as it looks like you have a killer grip, but really all you have is that thumb dreaming of happier days.

in short: for me, in agreement with RichardB, dirty tricks are the way to go and simply mean head starts that carry with it sound unexpected pattern switch ups. the martial arts of today, really. it used to be martial arts if the moves themselves were not anticipated. odd new ways to recieve people. feet in faces and all the rest of it. now i think cutting edge means playing with timing and expectations. looking tired and unathletic and wimpy, then exploding. looking away until the last moment, not really giving people the chance to take in the new information that is quickly coming in. nice thread, this.

As Russell mentioned, striking in the middle of phrase or word is great one.His brain is expecting the follow through and boom! Also saying something totaly our of the blue and unrelated,like he is asking you for your money and you say, "how do you say that in eskimo? then boom.Diverting his mind is great set up.

its all "dirty" isnt it? all's fair in love and war

-psychological deception and misdirection to lure people into a soft state then pouncing on them for maximum surprise, going from quiet voiced timid mode to a snarling pitbull to maximise shock

the notion of dirt I guess is down to perception and is context specific

last fight I got into was in London with some Eastern European fella a few months ago, I nutted him a few times, my well to do mates watching thought that was the epitome of "savagery" and "dirtiness" - most people here would think it fairly standard fair and that for a tactic to be "dirty" it would need to be pulling a knife and stabbing the guy or curb stomping him when he's half conscious- at another level special forces dudes would presumably think anything less than injuries causing death to be pointless- Imagine headbutting/eyegouging/ biting a sentry...?

"Yeah ok, can you just kill him now please? we are on a bit of a tight schedule you know..."

Richie said///

"I nutted him a few times"

...then said, "you weren't going to be using those anyway...you ugly bastard"

[well to do's turned off; navy seals yawning...it's the lens init? we're the balanced lot in
the middle, the spiritual calm and nicey ones ]

To me there is no such thing as "dirty fighting",there is only appropriate or not.Somebody who bumps into and spills your drink doesnt deserve to be attacked,some who attacks you deserves what he gets.When was in high school and there was a problem, we would meet in the school yard and fight according to the rules.No kicking etc only punching and never ever hit a guy when he is down.Well the world has changed alot since then and so be it.I assume anybody who wants to give me trouble in the street is a dangerous animal,and so I am ready to act accordingly.Cheers.

Isn't the definition of a dirty trick, the one the loser didn't see coming?

maija wrote:

Isn't the definition of a dirty trick, the one the loser didn't see coming?

Pretty much as far as I see it. "Dirty" is kind of a value judgement on rulebreaking that lingers from times and environments where there was some kind of rules being adhered to in fights, or at least an expectation of it in common society. 50 - 60 years ago or something kicking someone in the nuts was apparently considered very dirty. To quote from "combat without weapons" from 1942.

Quote :

...Scince "Combat without Weapons" appeared I have been accused of being everything from an ordinary thug to a downright sadist...

...In my lectures I have always maintained that the home guard should have a new motto, and my suggestion was "kick him in the crotch!" That may at first sound dirty, but in actual fact it happens to be the quickest, simplest and most foolproof way of dealing with any man, no matter how big and no matter how strong...

Now when looking in that book there's nothing in there that I percieve as "dirty" in this day and age. Kicking someone in the nuts is a good shot of opportunity, but I'm not going out of my way to get it. It's not the ultimate fight stopper, in a similar sense that eye gouging isn't the ultimate fight stopper. Although the RBSD community seem to have been obsessed with it for a while. "Go straight for the eyes." It's not bad, but it's not all that either. But we seem to have moved or are moving across that line as well. It seems to be because they have some shock value in relation to the climate of the time, that they are percieved as nuclear weapons. I believe this is why you see so many groin attacks in krav maga. It was put together back around the time of WW2. It's a reflection of it's time.

Now without that antiquated value judgement, "the one the loser didn't see coming" is what's left. The unexpected. In this day and age, it is your moral and professional responsibility as a fighter to see to it that this happens.

This was a good mechanical definition of it:

Quote :

Richie: psychological deception and misdirection to lure people into a soft state then pouncing on them for maximum surprise, going from quiet voiced timid mode to a snarling pitbull to maximise shock

someone on my utube channel commented yesterday that a technique shown was just "Hoorah Tough" but not effective

perhaps happysack kicking had the senstionalist shock value that eye gouging has had "you crazy animal!! is there anything you wont do??" to qualify as "Hoorah Tough"?

Im usually most concerned with getting a nice clean decisive shot in when he's not expecting it ... an honest shot delivered dishonestly if you will... different linguistics reflecting a different intention?

I think DT was looking for a list of DT's - which for its own sake would be fun I suppose

...or you could start with doing everything these dudes tell you not to

http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules

Quote :

Fouls: [Top]
1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

Mmmm... Lot's of nasty shit in the UFC list. Although some of them are so specific to the ring and competiton environment that they are mostly irrelevant on the outside. It might be useful to note that they're not stand-alone tools either, it just puts an extra spike on an already well established delivery-system. It always cracks me up when people discuss "dirty tactics" Vs. BJJ or something as if it was an either-or proposition. BJJ in example, with all the catches off and honed to a razor edge is a fucking monster. Every crank and lock is a break if taken that far, especially if you just explosively go for breaking it right off the bat. And as an aside I think that would to a large degree also negate the requirement for good position beforehand. Due to surprise and his inertia. Sprinkle shredder stuff, bare knuckle boxing and soft state exploitation on top of that and you've really got something.

RichardB wrote:

BJJ in example, with all the catches off and honed to a razor edge is a fucking monster. Every crank and lock is a break if taken that far, especially if you just explosively go for breaking it right off the bat. And as an aside I think that would to a large degree also negate the requirement for good position beforehand. Due to surprise and his inertia. Sprinkle shredder stuff, bare knuckle boxing and soft state exploitation on top of that and you've really got something.

mate I couldnt agree with you more

my BJJ instructor in Tenerife was a chilean dude, looked like your average slim Spanish bar man, a good looking Uri Geller- he was also a doorman which suprised us English louts as he was a crap boxer (he got in the ring and did it with us despite the potential of ruining his instructor image though, so fair play to him)

one day in practise we got into this debate: the English lads training with him were all doormen or grafters, the Spanish lads were all surfer types- just to set the context

He said "of course if you want to be kind you just punch or kick him, but if your feeling mean you use the submissions Ive shown you"... all the Spanish guys nodded sagely, all the English lads made the scooby doo noise and were like "wtf???!"

we couldnt get it, as doormen who were getting into fights every week out there we were incredulous "PUNCHING is the kinder option? Surely armlocking is?"

He demo'd for us: imagine you've taken a guy to the ground and you want him to stop fighting you and just leave, you have knee on chest.
If you punch him every time he resists you can "control" the amount of damage he recieves quite precisely.
If you "lock" him and apply more presure every time he resists, eventually ligaments and muscle will tear and bones will break. He said, and I'll never forget this, " there is a point with submissions beyond which you cant come back and he will be completely fuck-ed" (paraphrasing- he used to say "fuck- ed" in two seperate syllables )

It totally changed the way I thought about subs and fighting- the injuries inflicted by submissions are FAR far crueller and longer lasting than by getting punched kneed and kicked, even bitten and gouged.

the worst injury Ive ever recieved grappling was an ACL strain in my knee when trying to resist an aggressive hip throw from an angry grock
was pure bloody agony and meant 3 months on a crutch with a boring and painful hour of sports rehab work every day with my gf. Lucky for me I had that help to hand.

the worst injury Ive recieved from striking, were some powerful right hooks and headbutts from a Greek lad all the down the left side of my face- couldnt chew without pain for a week or see out my left eye properly, but to all intents and purposes could still function, drive, walk and go the loo

we've probably all heard that Russian Sambo focuses on leg locks
http://www.x3sports.com/brazilian-jiu-jitsu.html

Quote :

These techniques were emphasized by the Russian military with the theory in mind that one crippled soldier would require two other soldiers to carry him, thus removing three soldiers from battle

As you say RB if a good Sub's practitoner chooses to rip, pulse and break on every submission he catches rather than just carefully squeeze for a tap, tremendous injuries can be inflicted.

Richie///
just read yours--wicked....


Premodified entry///

Is it my imagination or are we all sort of, erm, drooling over this thread--slurp
...sorry, case in point.


there's an account of one of the old masters [japan] getting his thumb in between
someone's cheek and gum--then ripping him down to the ground. that's a risk, that.
but it's hylarious to think about. i bet that guy's life was flashing before his eyes--probably
expecting a fisticuffs boxing bout--then suddenly, 'why is my cheeky stretching off my
head .

my mom [most have you have heard this] bit a guys finger half off. he was trying to choke
her. some of her mates found the bird who was having a fling with a mate's husband. they
[crikey, this is a story i didn't think i'd be sharing] all held the woman down and shoved
chili peppers up her, erm, offending part. problem solved. no black eyes. no brutish husbands
to contend with. just sort of spiced everything up for a bit, and no more problem.

another dirty trick, that regularly occurs in these parts. run away...then ambush later. a mate of
mind was chasing a guy that had done some nasty thing or other. he felt pretty pumped in the
chase--as the predator/prey relationship appeared to be established. he was surprize jumped later,
probably on waiting until it was just my mate--end result was facial reconstructive surgery and
much signs of PTSD. in other words. the fight appears to be progressing nicely. it appears to have
dissipated. then suddenly full on, on someone elses terms--surprise attack. i suppose the bloke
figured this was going to happen anyway, then took his own terms into the equation--to devastating
affect. my mate was a musician, and as such there was a big fund raiser to pay for the many
operations.

how do we up a game that's pretty upped, hmmm...
hannibal lector style: eat the nose off his face during the row pre fight build up
i'd say the moves are there for all now, dirty remains a factor of timing--for when someone
has erroniously exhaled--among other script rewrites. this is the [in my opinion] the only expectation
one can fook with.
"hey mate, i give up---MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH" BURP
"didn't you blow your nose, you sick fook...you're going to make my tum queezy"

...also i found this nasty man on youtube...
watch at your own risk. kids don't try this at home--between 3 and 6pm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh7ZY1j4HFQ





"Richie help me...wait just a minute...IT'S YOU, AAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!"




.....

quick...what to do...what to do...offer your attacker an exploding sweetie
...
"erm, would you like a...lolly?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oep4mRpmrkQ&feature=related