"Knife Culture" Media Virus

I met someone over the weekend who is going to do a masters in dangerous virus containment

we got into a discussion about psychological/ thought viruses sometimes referred to as memes

I predicted that the media coverage of fatal stabbings will cause them to increase, Ive just seen on the news that there have been 3 more fatal stabbings in the Uk in the last 24 hours

I predict these stabbings will increase in proportion to their media coverage in much the same way "air rage" incidents increased with media coverage 10 years ago.

That virus has burnt itself out

the person I was talking to is 24, she didnt even know what the term "air rage" was.

18 years ago, we didnt use the term/ thought virus "road rage" either

Richie,
Do you think the increase in knife assaults is related the UK's ban on firearms?

Nah, I doubt it... the "ban on firearms" post the Dunblane massacre has been on for over 12 years wheras this spate of teenagers stabbing each other focussed in the south east london area has been ongoing for 2years now

I lived for 6 months in south east london, gang culture there has some unique idiosyncratic qualities that lend itself to this kind of crime

Sounds like most US inner cities in the late 50's and 60's when gang culture started to take off. Progressed from fists, to knives, to guns...

Your situation in US with gang culture is much more complex than ours, many more types of gangs existing for just as many different reasons with a varying degree of violence and preference for certain weapons


http://news.uk.msn.com/knife-crime-are-we-afraid.aspx

Also notice those school shootings. first there were only sporadic events separated by a lot of time. Then the media gives it a lot of coverage. And monkey see, monkey do, we've been having a lot more of them. I think there was some observation done on car crashes too. After a fatal accident was well covered in the news, there would be a period of a few weeks with more similar car crashes, which makes no sense if these are accidents, unless most of that increase wasn't accidental after all. So I guess this phenomenon carries over to most things people do. Knives in this case.

school shootings and self harming... its like once humans can fit a behavior into a box it becomes more doable

Richard Grannon wrote:

school shootings and self harming... its like once humans can fit a behavior into a box it becomes more doable

Such as the four minute mile thing. Whatever it was, it seems like it was all mental and memetic.

Also when you've got a nice complete ready made set of behaviors you don't have to do all the pesky deciding and figuring out of every individual step of the behavior. You just see what the other apes are doing and pick the behavior-set you like. Narrow it down to one single decision. Follow the relevant crowd.

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You just see what the other apes are doing and pick the behavior-set you like. Narrow it down to one single decision. Follow the relevant crowd.

sport combat or rbsd? palm or fist?

Bravo for ur UK knife Culture videos. U truly understand human nature and dynamics of gang culture..how one rises up the social "pecking order" of this culture..I'm totally for Rehabilitation model for those who are still "moldable" as the prison system will only dehumanize these youths even more and there they will learn the cutting edge methods to rob, murder, rape...Here in the US, there is no political Will for rehabilitating youths who still have a chance. The punitive model is supported by the majority of the people .What is the political will in UK?

Warren

Well the angry/ frightened white upper middle classes who make these decisions or who support the politicians who do are screaming hysterically for harsher sentencing...

yes, yes... thats right, but if that model of reality works then why not bring back birching?
Or go further back in judicial evolution and bring back branding felons or cutting out their eyes?

If pain makes people better then they should just get on with it.

Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime

There is little political will for taking rehabiltation seriously - it doesnt feed the desire for vengeance and control. Apparently we are draggin our heels in the evolutionary process.

And refusing to to be rational. Everything we have learnt tells us Prison does NOT work as a deterent or a means of rehabilitation in fact it makes people WORSE

(except in Japan which has the lowest reoffending rate in the world-)

MMMmmm... being banged up in a small building with a lot of other angry, sociopathic men in awful conditions, a recipe for psychological health? Im guessing probably not.




.... refusing rationality and demanding vengeance and control... good lord... that sounds... well... criminal!?


.

Richard Grannon wrote:
"Everything we have learnt tells us Prison does NOT work as a deterent or a means of rehabilitation in fact it makes people WORSE"

Well if you have all not heard, our dear Home Secretary has now put forward a "fantastic" plan. Instead of sending "knife criminals/carriers" to prison....get this for putting the fear of god into them.....they will be made to visit prison and Hospital A+E to see the damage they cause and where they could end up. I have a better idea Jacqui....why dont you sit them on the f*****g naughty step for 5 minutes....save the f*****g petrol!!!! !!! What a bloody joke!!! Does she have no f*****g clue!!

Prisons are a modern day gladiator training ground - at least according to this article by Darren Laur from his website personalprotectionsystems.ca


Gladiator School


Very recently, due to my line of work, I had the opportunity to speak with a parolee who had just been released from serving 15 years of hard time in some of the toughest maximum-security federal penitentiaries in Canada. In the beginning, we both tested the waters with one another and were more adversarial, much like the mongoose and the Cobra, but as trust and report were established, I was able to get some very important insight into how violence inside some of the most violent prisons in Canada is taught, learned and used. This person, who I will call Bob, estimated that he had been involved in approximately 130-150 violent confrontations while inside. Bob has experienced all levels of violence while in our prison system, both armed and unarmed, and has seen death several times. IMO, based upon Bob’s experience with violence, he is a subject matter expert on the topic of real world violence, and as such, has a lot of valuable insight to offer to those of us who are willing to listen; listen and learn I did. I hope you the reader will also glean some information from what it is I am about to share with you.


On The Topic Of Weapons:

On this topic, Bob stated that weapons give one the advantage and as such, anything and everything could, and was, used as a real or improvised weapon. If an inmate could grab something to defend himself with, then one would do so without hesitation. There is no dishonor in this tactic.

The weapon of choice, surprise, surprise, home made edged or pointed weapons (shivs) made from anything and everything including paper and hardened plastic or impact weapons (piping).

When I asked Bob how he would use the shiv, he replied; “using the element of surprise”. More often than not, a stabbing inside the prison was never an advertised event. Bob stated that if the intended “mark” heard that he was being targeted, then the target would make every effort to hit his identified attacker first. According to Bob, this was why “surprise” was a primary tactic used in prison; it gave the attacker the advantage of first strike.

I next asked Bob, if he was going to hit someone with a Shiv, what would be his primary target. I expected to hear; throat, kidney, groin, instead Bob stated; “ under the armpit is the target of choice inside.” This tactic was quite bewildering to me until I asked Bob why. Bob stated that a shiv attack to the throat, kidney, or groin areas were not guaranteed to immediately debilitate/stop an adversary (thus giving the target the ability to fight back), whereas a horizontal strike directly into the armpit would cause an immediate puncture and collapse of a lung which, based upon his personal experience and observations, always caused the victim to buckle (the first thing that came to mind here was the last fight scene from Gladiator the movie when Russell Crowe was stabbed in the side of his rib cage prior to entering the coliseum. Infact when I painted this scene to Bob, he laughed stating “ I saw that movie, in the real world that wound would have immediately collapsed Crowe” ) . From this position, further multiple attacks with the knife to the body could easily take place if needed.

Another interesting piece of information that I found bewildering was that most knife attacks in prisons did not end in death, which Bob stated was “deliberate”. Yes, some attacks were planned assassinations, but most were designed to cause maximum damage, via multiple hits, without causing death to send a message to the intended target. Having said this, Bob further stated that tactics of first strike did not differentiate between the two, what differed was how the fight was finished; assassination vs. message.

On the topic of Knife defence, Bob stated that if an inmate heard he was being targeted, and could not go and hit the attacker first, then several tactics were used:

• Magazines, especially National Geographic, would be bound (usually via shoe laces) to the front, sides, and under the arm pits of the body, at which time a heavy sweater or coat was placed overtop. This was “prison made” body amour which worked very well in protecting one from both puncture and slash attacks


• Hands on self-defence against a shiv attack were simple, direct, and offensive in nature. Bob stated that the most important thing learned and taught was to control the blade/shiv first and then just “pound” the guy to hell.


I had heard of the first tactic (magazine body armor) before, but found Bob’s second tactic (hands on skills) very inspiring due to the fact that this was what I teach as well. I asked Bob why controlling the shiv was so important to him, to which he stated, “ I want to prevent multiple hits to my body because that is what is going to likely kill me.” When I asked Bob why he just did not strike the shiv arm, and then proceed to slam and jam the guy into oblivion (a tactic taught by some RBSD instructors), he laughed and stated, “ have you ever seen what adrenaline and the focused intent to live can do to a guy, they become super human, they feel no pain, you can hit the guy all you want but if you don’t control that shiv, you are going to get hit multiple times, and it’s the multiple hits that will get you killed. This is even more of a reality if the guy is high on speed, coke, or just plain mental” IMO, one of the true golden nuggets of wisdom offered by Bob. Bob further stated that in a knife fight it was extremely important to keep forward momentum and to engage with rage taking the fight to the attacker.


On the Topic Of Empty Hand Self Defence:


Again, Bob stated that the use of weapons was the preferred method of self-defence, but if a weapon was not around, he would attack three primary targets :

1. EYES: Bob stated that if someone was blinded, it made it hard to fight effectively. Bob proceeded to show me how he would jam his fingertips into a person’s eyes; very similar to the finger jab taught by myself, Senshido, and some Military Combatives.

2. THROAT: Bob stated that this was his favorite target due to the fact that when hit, it almost always caused a gag reflex. Bob demonstrated the two ways he learned inside to attack the throat:

a. Web hand strike up and under line of sight
b. Open hand chop

3. GROIN: Of the three this was Bob’d least favorite, due to effectiveness, but if the target presented itself, he would take it. Bob stated that he would primarily target this area with his shin or tip of boot/shoe. Bob stated that when this one worked, most victims would bend over thus allowing one to easily control the head and body. In fact, we both laughed because it was this technique that allowed me to take immediate control of him.



Other techniques utilized if the physical fight went to grapple/ground were bites, gouges, mouth hooking, and ear rips. On the topic of ear rips, Bob had seen this little beauty work on more than one occasion when rolling around on the ground with someone who he called a “wrestler.” As Bob stated; “Grab an ear and yank down as hard as you can. People immediately begin to panic not because of pain, but because of the large amount of blood that begins to flow about their face.”


The use of bludgeons (piping) was also very common inside prison. Again attacks here did not travel any specific lines of attack. When a body target presented itself, it was hit from anywhere and everywhere. Primary target in most cases was the head and neck. As Bob stated, “ knock the guy out, and the rest is easy” No truer words have been spoken in my opinion.


Bob emphasized that if he had to go hand to hand, it was only to allow him time to transition to a real or improvised weapon, if able, as quickly as possible. Another important golden nugget, and one that is preached by some of the more “credible” RBSD instructors.


Bob also shared with me that many of the traditional martial arts are offered inside our prison system; karate, TKD, Judo, Tai Chi. Bob stated that many who took these arts did so for self discipline, fitness, focus, and stress reduction. When I asked him if he felt these arts helped in any way when it came to real world self-defence, he laughed and stated, “they look pretty and teach people how to dance.” Interesting comment. Bob further went onto say that even those who had black belts resorted to good old fashion dirty fighting when defending themselves on the tier or in the yard. Another interesting observation and comment. “Nothing fancy, just simply brutal is the name of the game inside the Pen.”

One last thing that Bob shared with me in this topic area was that multiple opponents (swarming) were not a real issue in the Canadian prison system. This is not to say that this does not happen, it does, but amongst the prison population this is seen to be a cowardly act. If you are going to go physical one should do so man to man. Many times, those that swarm, become free targets for the rest of the population. Exception to this rule, riots where informers, rapists, and child molesters are targeted by groups



On Mindset For Survival:

Bob stated that if targeted for violence, you either become the “predator or the prey.” , You either “eat or be eaten”, You either “win or loose”, and at times you either “live or die”. Focused aggression, with the intent to live, and to cause as much damage as possible, as quickly as possible, utilizing the element of surprise is the key to survival. Threat of jail, more time, isolation, is impotent to those already doing time. Your goal is survival by any means necessary. There are no rules, and there is no honor amongst thieves as Bob so eloquently stated. You do what you have to do to live and survive. If you get in a beef that goes physical, put them down fast, and put them down hard, so that they don’t get back up right away.


MINDSET, is where Bob placed the heaviest emphasis on physical survival. As Bob stated, “ the most feared and NEVER targeted are those that are seen to be the craziest and will do anything, and I mean anything, to survive”
Final Comments:


I couldn’t help but compare what I was hearing from Bob to the roman gladiators of the past; prisoners taught to fight out of the need for survival and in some cases entertainment. Thus the reason for the title of this posting, “Gladiator School”.

Never in a million years did I ever think that our interaction together would have lead to Bob sharing the above noted information. Two adversaries, with a common link, self-protection and survival. Curiosities lead to exploration, and exploration lead to knowledge. As I have always said, knowledge and the understanding and application of that knowledge is power.

When it comes to “Real World” violence, Bob has been there and done that. He shared with me a world that many cannot even begin to understand or comprehend, but yet it is an “in your face” reality that many self-defence/RBSD instructors do not want to comprehend or understand due to ignorance or willful blindness. Now the question is:


“IS YOUR TRAINING BEST PREPAIRING YOU TO FACE THIS MODERN GLADIATOR GIVEN THE ABOVE NOTED INFORMATION !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

Just for clarification on attacks with the shiv to the armpit:, there were two main tactics that ‘Bob” stated were taught and utilized:

Due to the fact that most shankings took place utilizing the element of surprise, they would approach the mark from the rear or side, and then with the hand not holding the shiv, they grabbed their target by the wrist, quickly lifted it and then proceeded to impale under the armpit.

• If it was a face to face encounter where the element of surprise was not used, primary tactic would be to quickly shoot for the mark’s leg and lift it with forward drive, this would usually cause the victim to grab onto the attacker with both hands for balance, thus opening up the armpit for attack. (this was similar in description to Pentecost, but different in the target attacked)


If the above two tactics failed, they would just penetrate to grapple range and start pumping any target of opportunity.


Having seen my fair share of prison shivs, most are designed to impale/thrust rather than slash. This “might” also explain why getting into the chest cavity is so easily done. I too was a big believer that the ribs offered some protection against bladed attacks until I went to a few autopsies and watch the pathologist do their thing. There is no doubt that the ribs do offer some protection from a “slashing” cut with a knife, but against a committed weighted strike with impaling type of weapon , penetration is easily acquired in most cases.


On the issue of the number of fights that “Bob” stated that he was involved in, there was no doubt in my interview with him that “ego” did play a small role. I had some concerns over his numbers too, but after checking with some friends who work within the correctional system here in Canada, they were not surprised by Bob’s numbers. In the end, only “Bob” knows the real numbers, but given who he is and what he has done, I don’t think there is a lot of deviation.


The purpose of the posting was to provided readers with a perspective on violence from another “experts” point of view. “Bob” is a skilled predator who survived life on the inside, and was willing to share some of his thoughts, be they slightly tainted or exaggerated, on the issue of violence and self-protection from his point of view. What I got from the interview was:


Bob, and other predators like him, are “asymmetrical” thinkers and fighters who utilize the elements of , simplicity, surprise, speed, and violence of action to their advantage. Those who teach or participate in the RBSD field should take note and acid test what they do against the tactics and skills mentioned by BOB.



Strength and Honor

Darren Laur



Caveat:


The information in the original posting from “Bob”, was but a small clip it of the overall interview that I conducted with him. Much of the interview had nothing to do with violence and self-protection; it was only a common thread that I was able to utilize to gain rapport with Bob. On the information specific to the original posting, it is only but “one man’s truth” which Bob could have exaggerated, but after speaking with some friends who work within the correctional field here in Canada, they stated that he was pretty well spot on. It should also be noted that other topics discussed in our interview were 100% verifiable and substantiated. Even if the number of fights that Bob stated he was involved in were exaggerated (which I don’t believe they were to any GREAT degree), the overall message of Bob’s viewpoint should be carefully considered. In the end, Bob could have been full of SH*T, but based upon my experience in interviewing people like Bob, who Bob is, where he has been, what he has done, and the steps that I took to verify other topics discussed, I believe Bob’s information to be very reliable.

k9nfm wrote:

Well if you have all not heard, our dear Home Secretary has now put forward a "fantastic" plan. Instead of sending "knife criminals/carriers" to prison....get this for putting the fear of god into them.....they will be made to visit prison and Hospital A+E to see the damage they cause and where they could end up. I have a better idea Jacqui....why dont you sit them on the f*****g naughty step for 5 minutes....save the f*****g petrol!!!! !!! What a bloody joke!!! Does she have no f*****g clue!!

I can imagine a nurse saying "I'm terribly sorry about the increase in MRSA and waiting times, but I was having to escort a chav around A&E. For some reason the patients found his visit a bit intimidating and intrusive..."

Its frightening how disconnected and easily bullied these spineless decision makers are... thanks for the article Victor

Quillhook, nice avatar

I should post the vids from this weeks blog

Great video blog and a lot of common sense being spoken here. This can go for loads of different things in the media where the more they report on something the bigger the story gets until it fizzles away into the background and is seldom reported - air rage being a great case in point - a social menace one day and gone the next!

I'm looking at some NLP/Psychology stuff at the moment and have come across the term RAS (Reticular Activating System) which from what I can glean so far is the 'filter' system in the brain that whittles down all of the data coming into the brain into easily readable chunks -supposedly down from millions of bits of information down to around about 7 per second. Now, I am no scientist so I cannot obviously check these kinds of details but I'm wondering if this has a part to play in this discussion - could it be that by reading more and more stories about knife crime, youth crime and all the bad stuff going on that this RAS is chaging the way people see the world - it is almost setting the brain's filter into focusing more on the negative stories such as stabbings.

Or, it may not be connected at all and just a random muse from me...

I don't know how the RAS works or if it is involved in such a manner but people seem to work that way. I.e., getting a new car and suddenly seeing the same cars everywhere. Ye olde reality tunnel... We might benefit by having a look at what's shaping peoples reality tunnels.

I blame the media, if I have to dish out blame, because they focus mostly on shock stories and blow them completely out of proportion. (While having no references to it, I read something about violence having decreased by 30% while media coverage of violence had increased by about 475% during the same time period.) But people in general aren't blameless either, because good news doesen't sell. Or to turn it around, people don't care much about good news. Then again evolution may be to blame because we seem to be set to pay more attention to bad news than good news. Although of course this makes sense because it's bad for an ape to miss out on the warning about the bear near the waterhole. I blame reality then... No wait.

I definitely blame the media more than other things. People in general (me included whenever my monkey-brain is left unattended) are too irrational to be able to handle stuff like media shock stories. And I must also blame society because people are allowed to wield democratic power under the influence of this powerful drug. When things change it is society's version of an allergic reaction.

Then again the media can't really be expected to do anything else than what it does. In the good old days the news may have been about informing people about the news. But these days the media is Coca Cola, and they're in a highly competitive industry selling a product. The more they can rile people up, the more money they make. And if they don't, they go bankrupt, so

The media is hardcore business, the uncritical populace spooks easily, and the lawmakers are effeminate pushovers. While of course, off to the side, any self-respecting government will accept whatever more control people give away in order to feel safe.

and BTW

I don't think the "shock tactic" about showing people what they're doing is all that bad of an idea, it's just applied in a silly way. I.e. if you're showing people how to knife fight and so on, it could be good to also show what it will result in too so thoughtless students don't go off in their cartoon-physics reality trying to be the alpha-monkey without understanding what they're actually doing. It has happened... Just so IF they have that security catch, they might decide not to go for it) But the idea of doing this to people who use knives on people seems just stupid. A suspect there are quite a few psychopaths among them. I seem to remember also that some test project about educating psychopaths about feelings and etc faiedl miserably because it made them even better at being manipulative. In the same line, who is to say giving them a tour through the ER won't just feed their sadism even more?

Richard, very interesting video blog documentary.

Has given me a whole different perceptions on human psychology and the media and crime.

Thank you.

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o thoughtless students don't go off in their cartoon-physics reality trying to be the alpha-monkey without understanding what they're actually doing.

hahaha! thats fuckin awesome "cartoon- physics reality"

I think what your referring to RichardB is the attempt to give sociopaths talk therapy actually giving them a forum for their self aggrandisement and to practise their manipulative skills... academic source? the psychiatrist in the Sopranos being warned by her therapist to drop Tony Soprano as a client... again... thats his job in the Sopranos story.

MrDan, I would look to pretty much EVERY psychological illusion performed by Derren Brown, most depend at least in part on the effect of information/commands that are unconsciously absorbed... I think the RAS selects what information being unconsciously absorbed to make conscious... like all those yellow BMWs you normally ignore but now see all the time because that drug dealing gangster who is after you drives one

Southpaw, ta lar

Cartoon physics seems to be frighteningly prevalent in people's thinking at times. I guess it has a logical explanation. I have a distant memory from when I was very young. 4 or 5 maybe? I actually thought when people broke an arm it would fall off and look like those characteristic cartoon pieces of ham with a bone in it. Well until I asked someone about it anyway, but I think that came from a cartoon. I read a book about how our minds work called "making up the mind" by a Chris Frith. It basically says we do not percieve reality directly, but only percieve a simplified and heavily edited estimation of reality based on experience, fears, wishes and sensory data. So long as the theory can be tested against reality the theory stays reasonably accurate, but if not then it can be severely off. Again in children it is especially easy to notice. Such as a story I heard about a kid remarking that it must be really hot outside, because he saw mist out there.

The mother thought that was an odd thing to say so she asked what made him think that. Well he had noticed steam rising from boiling pots on the stove, and steam was hot so it must have been really hot outside with all that steam. Note that I'm giving a rough paraphrase here so the kid didn't sit there pontificating like that kid Stewie from the family guy cartoon, but the basic idea is there. Based on the meager experience of that brain, it slapped together a theory on what was going on. "Ah it must be over 100 centigrade today."

Now that doesen't just show how stupid kids are, it betrays the mechanism behind adult thinking too. If you start feeding the machine bad data, you're going to get a bad theory of reality being slapped together in there. Now if people watch thousands of hours of action movies where all sorts of completely insane and ridiculous things are possible, and also fail to get experience or other input which tells them otherwise... Well guess what. A lot of that goes in and is assumed to be how things work.

You can punch and kick and stab people all you want, and all they'll get is a boo boo. Then you'll win and get all the bananas and female monkeys while the crowd cheers and so on.

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It basically says we do not percieve reality directly, but only percieve a simplified and heavily edited estimation of reality based on experience, fears, wishes and sensory data.

And remember the massive amount of projection... we perceive a tiny fraction of a percentage of the data presented to us moment to moment then we take this tiny bit of data and paint and draw all over it so it fits in with our current world view!

Light travels in straight lines, all images hitting your brain are completely flat ... yet you "know" there is space behind the computer screen and under the desk so you use "clues" to determine which objects are flat and which arent and just project that reality onto them... sometimes those "clues" are false... giving us optical illusions.

And every image you see hits your brain upside down, thats how the eye works... the brain "turns it the right way round" for us so we can function in the world. If you put on spectacles that turn everything upside down and wear the for a few days of head aches and staggering about your brain will eventually learn to "right" the image for you again... brain plasticity... wonderful thing...

What a mess!

It's a wonder we manage to get anything right at all. Reminds me of another book I read about the absurd way our minds are built. Kluge, the haphazard construction of the human mind "Think duct tape, not supercomputer" was the phrase that sold me.

You guys are aware of the Canadian beheading, well... monkey see, monkey do, we have a new beheading

Quote :

Police on the Greek island of Santorini have shot and injured a knifeman who decapitated his girlfriend and walked around the streets with her head.

Terrified residents of the popular tourist island barricaded themselves into their homes and called the police.

The suspect, 35, was shot during a dramatic car chase in which he crashed into a motorbike and badly injured the rider and pillion passenger.

The crime is one of the most gruesome in Greece in recent memory.

Ricochet

The man reportedly beheaded his girlfriend, a teacher in her mid-to-late 20s, in the village of Vourvoulos, close to the island's capital, Thira, and then paraded with the head.

Speaking on Greek television, the local sub-prefect said the man attacked officers who tried to arrest him and slashed one policeman in the face.

The man threw the head into a patrol car and then stole a police jeep and tried to get away.

But after 400m the suspect slammed into a motorbike carrying two female doctors.

They were thrown into the air and badly hurt.

The police then opened fire and hit the alleged knifeman five times.

According to one eyewitness, one police bullet ricocheted off the road and hit a woman in the leg and jaw.

The suspect is said to have a history of jealousy and domestic violence.

The authorities say they are organising a military aircraft to fly the man and some of those he injured to undergo emergency surgery in Athens.

I know Janet Street-Porter is hideous but I find myself agreeing with a lot of what she writes in the Sunday paper. Here's yesterday's article on teenage girls and violence:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/janet-street-porter/editoratlarge-sugar-and-spice-why-have-our-little-girls-turned-sour-883767.html

Whether this is just another example of the media highlighting an issue and making it more acceptable is open to debate. I thought it was worth sharing on the forum though.