The throat thing and other stuff.

Continuing from the axes and undies thread

Although I intended to chew some more on the info, procrastrination seems to have gotten the better of that little project for the time being. So here goes nothing. After the last larynx discussion on here I googled for the laryngologists info on trauma to the larynx. To make a lot of latin mess considerably shorter it seems that although striking the larynx can be risky because it could cause an oedema and other complications. It takes a lot of focused force to reliably cause an acute medical emergency. So just because you shouldn't mess with it unless you're willing to kill the guy it doesen't mean getting that to happen with reliability is as easy as people think.

Blunt trauma to the laryx is a rare injury and is usually caused by people slamming their throat on the steering wheel in car crashes or by catching a stretched rope, branch or something along those lines on the throat when driving snowmobiles, motorcycles and so on. In other words a considerable impact, yet the stuff we're looking for - death before the EMT's could get there - only seems to happen about 20% of the time.

What the laryngologists seem to consider highest on the "oh shit list" of what blunt trauma can cause is if I've understood correctly, a complete smashing of the cartilage of the larynx and a cricotracheal separation. Apparently the stuff that connects the lower windpipe to the larynx can be torn with enough force. I don't think you can reliably close someone's airway without creating these effects. Otherwise you'll probably only get that stinking possibility of oedema where the swelling seals off the airway. Which is scary when you're trying to save lives but only frighteningly unreliable when you need someone to start choking now, and not possibly several minutes from now.

So unless you're punching like a heavyweight you may have to go all out elbowing the shit out of the larynx to create that effect. Reliably that is... Again it seems that the body isn't made of porcelain. Not really a surprise, but a few years ago I considered the larynx an "easy killshot" like martial arts mythology says it should be. Hah! I wondered why nobody else had seemed to figure out the potential of this. Especially in mass attack scenarios. Well... It's because it just doesen't fucking work that way, that's why.

But generally it seems that blood and airway problems kill after fights when it happens. Apart from a good hard clokehold, they don't seem to have that "right now" quality we're looking for. Look at shooting too, both people and animals. The heart and basic brain structures is where it's at. Everything else exists in the land of infinite variables. When you need to stop someone NOW, neurological trauma is the shit. When people suddenly die in fights, it's usually from bumping the head off of the asphalt or some other hard object. Such as faceplanting into someone's boot repeatedly.

Couple that with the fact that the human body really isn't all that good at delivering percussive force sufficient to cause massive trauma without heaps of training and/or a distinct size advantage. Besides you're beating a body with a body. It's only so tough relative to the other body and the impact goes both ways. It seems to me that throwing and tripping has a far greater chance of success. Bodyweight. gravity and asphalt...

Axes and Undies

I was part of an art show once called Chainsaws and Frilly Knickers

Interesting info about the larynx.

RichardB- "reliabilty" - you,ve summed up in a word my doubt about focussing to much on attacking the throat as an end in itself

last week I did a short fight scene and there was a sequence where I got hit in the throat 3 times- when you do 5 takes this starts to have an effect even if you are pulling the shots! what it was doing was making me feel dizzy and sick and giving me a headache but it didnt make me cough or gag- I suspect, I dont know its just an opinion, the blood vessels and nerves running alognside the larynx and trachea may be more vulnerable with more of the immediacy of effect we are looking for than the trachea(by attacking the larynx or sternal notch) itself-
just an opinion based on a couple of experiences

There are supposed to be some stuff in the carotid arteries (among other places) that reacts to sudden increases in blood pressure and quickly lowers the blood pressure. I think the effect is somewhat similar to that of nitroglycerine. And from what I've heard that has the side effects of dizziness, headache and so on as well. It sounds like the effects are coming from impact to the carotids.

How useful that is in fighting is another question. From what I've heard this reflex becomes increasingly sensitive with age, and arthroschlerosis makes it even more sensitive. Above the age of 40 you may have a reasonable chance of making someone faint with a hard impact to the carotids, all depending, but younger people in good health will probably just get dizzy.

There's no question that the neck is a vulnerable area of the body. One of the all time favorite targets among predators. It may not be as vulnerable to an unarmed human though. Give someone a knife while going for the throat and it looks a lot more grim. The approximate death rates before EMT's could get there got all the way up near 80% once penetrating trauma and so on was included. It's kind of hard to know what weight to give this scince there wasn't all that much specific context to go by on those figures, but it gives a rough idea. There's also another thing.

Something I experienced when working with sheep is that they're very protective about their necks. Having the luxury of "four wheel drive", they can drag themselves ahead with surprising effectiveness if they really want to go or don't want to go somewhere. Putting strength on strength usually meant having to jam the creatures against a wall or grabbing a leg or something. Which looks either somewhat brutal or completely oafish. But by simply putting my hand up against their throat they'd just stop themselves. That and taking their base away looks a lot better. Their bodies, and I expect human bodies too, seem to have an instinct for minimizing force against that stuff. That's probably what's going on when jamming the fingers behind the suprasternal notch too. When it comes down to it, I guess it is a psychological weapon, like pain, which can be extremely handy. But subject to unpredictability when psychoactive drugs and large amounts of emotion and adrenaline enter the mix.

Getting their head under control and front legs off the ground basically rendered them absolutely powerless, without having to excert any particular amont of energy. Imagine a man pushed/pulled up by the neck, standing on one leg. It just takes all the power out. It's similar to how bending over prevents you from being able to lift effectively. Most animals seem to have a hard time getting off the ground with a big cat clamped onto their necks. That's probably another reason they seem to prefer it.

More to the point. While blunt trauma to the neck can have very variable results. It seems like most animals including us have difficulty giving effective resistance against force to the neck. As in grabbing, shoving, pulling. It's also well away from the center of gravity. Control and destabilizing is probably the best use of the neck. It needn't be fancy. Just an aggressive push/drive, or grabbing a fistful of neck and moving with it could work in a pinch. Right into conveniently placed walls and vehicles or whatever. But for getting people to go limp fast I can't think of anything better to do with the neck than a solid chokehold. The only stuff worth striking seems to be the head. Either to KO or just blasting at them.

that was a flocking good post RichardB

it should be an article, may it be an article?

Quote :

Something I experienced when working with sheep

Sounds good to me.

For the ninja, there is a lesson in everything.

"softball" player (this is baseball isnt it?) dies after getting hit in the neck... the article says the ball hit him "under his left ear"

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/30319718/

another Baseball player dies from a neck injury http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Coolbaugh

Quote :

when a line drive hit by Drillers catcher Tino Sanchez struck him in the neck while he was standing in the first base coach's box.[3][4] The impact pulverized Coolbaugh's left vertebral artery, which services the brain from the spinal cord. The result, according to Pulaski County Coroner Mark Malcolm, was a severe brain hemorrhage that essentially killed Coolbaugh on impact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertebral_artery

Those balls travel pretty fast. According to some stuff I read a fast punch might be in the area of 20mph, while the balls go anything from 70mph to, I think the record in baseball is 150 or something. That's about 240 kmh! I think it is the leverage and whipping motion that enables that kind of speed to be developed. Because I don't think human muscles work that fast. They don't weigh much though, about 145 g from what I could find. But they're fairly hard and dense, or are they? I haven't handled any. There doesen't seem to be a whole lot of meat covering that part of the neck, so it does seem vulnerable to rogue baseballs. I wonder how much kinetic energy is involved.

If I stumbled correctly through the formulas (which really is a matter of stumbling in the dark), then I think 100 kg is the the most you could squeeze out of the ball without throwing like a superhero. Not that much really. but if you duct tape a baseball to a 100 kg rock and drop it from an inch or two on a prone man's neck (I figure in real speed he's trapped between his own inertia) it would do something. Shit "only" 50 kg would be bad to take. But the speed factor is probably important. When you just put something on meat, you can kind of squeeze it. But when something arrives at blinding speeds, the meat doesen't get a lot of time to "give" and dissipate forces. More of a shock. So when it can't bend it breaks. It's a hunch but it seems to make sense.

I think there's a Mick Coup clip where he explains the difference between impulse and impact.
Impact is what you want to get a crisp hit that jurgles the brain inside the skull to get a KO, and as I understand it, this is where the acceleration vs constant speed is key to get that 'snap'. This could also damage an artery lower down, no doubt.
It seems like impulse, e.g. a ball hitting a target from a distance, could have more affect if it landed on the soft area of the neck where it damaged the artery by squishing it, as in the case mentioned above. Otherwise, if the impact hit the skull, it could be absorbed somewhat by the rest of the body, falling back or over.

... Didn't that actress that died ski-ing get an impact behind her ear and died later also?

As i understand it, which is not well as I'd rather watch Rugby than Baseball, the soft ball is softer than a baseball AKA hardball. It is also larger. A baseball is more akin to a cricket ball.