Article by Joe Lewis regarding "streetfighters"

Though I'd share this article with you all. Interesting read...

Exposing the Myth
By Joe Lewis
Joe has just published an article called Street Fighting for Black Belt Magazine. The document below is the full-length article Joe wrote but much of the content was cut out due to space limitations within the magazine.

People pursuing martial arts have been for years conditioned to ask all the wrong questions. The classic misleading question, "What combat martial art is the best?" The real question should be, "Why do I need martial arts?" Martial arts is like dieting; it is not, "What do I eat," but more importantly, "Why do I eat?" When access to facts is withheld and we fail to investigate the unproven claims, myths arise.

Martial arts are flooded with myths. There are students who believe if they can emulate or fight like a snake or praying mantis or even a monkey, this method automatically grants them superiority. This accepted practice is as ill fated as the myth that all members in a martial arts class should execute techniques exactly the same. Short people cannot fight as if they are tall, small people cannot fight like they’re big, and nor can slow people be expected to emulate those who are genetically quick.

Also, small people are even taught to practice their drills standing directly in front of opponents who are often much larger. If you’re short or small, you must learn how to fight like a short or small person. In the animal kingdom, snakes don’t fight like birds nor do tigers fight like butterflies. Humans have many technical challenges to overcome without trying to learn to fight like some kind of bird or insect or other animal type. Learning to fight like a human is difficult enough.

Out of this abyss of untested nonsense surfaces another untouchable phenomena called the "streetfighter." Professional fighters and martial arts instructors are often harassed by this peripheral group who lack the same dedication, the willingness to train in public, or the confidence to compete. These types consistently claim that they are legitimate fighters, even better than those who compete in the ring. Unlike real fighters, they pretend to be immune to judgment. Some of their familiar self-endowments are, "deadliest man alive" or "king of the streetfighters."

Fighters fight and runners race. They each love competition. Records of wins and losses are administered and include dates, locations, and opponents. A small handful of the ambitious best become world-class professionals, called fighters. This status is earned, never self-proclaimed.

The only "records" streetfighters have are down at the police department. The seasoned officers with whom I’ve worked describe their many encounters with streetfighters, for the most part, as being nothing more than a joke. These officers report that in the end, all they have is a big mouth.

The word, "streetfighter," always bothered me. It reminds me of the term, "killer instinct." There is no such thing as a killer instinct. Journalists conjured up the term to describe the boxer, Jack Dempsey. "Streetfighter" is a word in the dictionary; however, at age 57, I have witnessed many fights, but to date, never a single one has taken place in the street. I think of a so-called "streetfighter" as either being some hoodlum, terrorist, or immature kid often being the one who creates fights. Usually, their "records" consist of beating up some drunks, a few kids, and even probably a couple of poor bums. These types respect violence.

When kids are exposed to adults using violence, such as a parent beating a child, they absorb two messages; one, that adults condone violence and second, that adults use violence to solve problems. This is where all world wars begin. If you’re proud to call yourself a streetfighter, I hope, along with all our kids, that you never move into our neighborhood.

Two things about the streetfighter amuse me. What purpose is being served with a practice of suspending rational thought in order to self-appoint oneself the title of "streetfighter," and then with the same zeal, grant the streetfighter higher combat status, claiming ring fighters can’t streetfight? What major flaws does anyone detect rendering pro fighters helpless or at a disadvantage in a street fight when observing sport fighters, the likes of Mike Tyson or Frank Shamrock and others?

There are those who claim ring fighting isn’t practical or real. What is unreal or impractical or less deadly about a kick, a knee, or a punch that knocks a ring opponent out and sometimes kills? Also, what about a choke or joint lock, which could also kill or render an opponent instantly helpless?

From physical strength to mental toughness, there is no identifiable attribute of streetfighters unavailable to ring fighters. Sometimes, the technique mechanics are different. For example, if you research boxing’s history, you would note that the bare-knuckle fighters kept their palms facing upward. If they had punched like today’s gloved fighters, who learn to rotate their punches, turning the palms downwards at contact, then they would have destroyed their hands.

Also, the intent of a technique can vary. I could strike you and abstain from hurting you, strike as if I’m abusing and spanking you, hurt, punish, torture, slaughter, or even bury you. Each of these elevating intents vary in degrees of effect. Sometimes, of course, your aggressor may show up with a weapon or others to outnumber you, but then these factors do not make streetfighters better. This only creates the old "what if" scenario. What if the ring fighter pulls out his own gun and so on?

Take 10 top professional fighters ("K-1," "U.F.C.," "Pride," etc.) and put them into a street context. Most rational experts would overwhelmingly select the outcome to largely favor the pros. And if you put the streetfighter in a ring sport context, I can’t see anyone having any hope for the streetfighter.

Streetfighting does have its place, but is streetfighting nothing more than a well-timed trick or sucker punch? One of my older brothers had a nasty reputation back in his day. One night he sat down next to a woman sitting alone in some nightclub. Seconds later, her enraged boyfriend appeared at the table standing over my brother, demanding he step outside. My brother stood up with his beer bottle in his hand and said, "Sure, just let me finish my beer." As he put the bottle to his mouth, he suddenly drops it, simultaneously decking the guy, punching him with the right hand in which he had held the beer. During my younger years, my older brothers taught me a great deal about these types of altercations. This situation with my brother illustrates the oldest tactic known to man, "surprise attack."

Just because you put the word, "street," in front of the word, "fighter," does not make you omnipotent. The word has no magic powers nor does it mean that any untested combatant could automatically last 10 to 12 grueling rounds absorbing dozens of world-class educated punches and kicks or grappling maneuvers. Nor could the streetfighter maintain professional speed, power, and accuracy, which take years of hard training to develop, working with tough sparring partners aided by profoundly smart trainers.

Neither is one granted a winning composure at all times in the face of any struggle, fatigue, stress, or physical pain and be backed up with the fact that you have a long tested career demonstrating during all your fights a marked willingness to always remain engaged while maintaining an inner conviction to never quit. These are a few of the attributes real fighters acquire after years of hard work and consistent dedication. These can only come! Working in real scenarios against well-prepared world-class fighters.

In the military, we also emulate the success of armies that win, not those who only talk. My black belt fighters acquire through action the ability to go 8, 10, 12 rounds with a well-prepared world-class fighter and to be able to look him in the eye and let him know five things. One, he can’t handle my speed; two, he can’t handle my power; three, he can’t hurt me; four, that I will never get tired; and five, I will never quit.

If you have never endured the experience standing toe to toe with this type of world-class fighter while having him fire educated punches, kicks, elbows, and knees with cold-blooded, world-class accuracy and conviction, then you can’t speak from knowledge or with any confidence, nor have the slightest clue about what you’re talking on the subject of fighting.

Lastly, I can assure you that a much greater number of ring fighters have tested and proven their skills in the "street" than the number of streetfighters who have ever entered the ring. If you took 10 top ring fighters and 10 top streetfighters and let each group test their skills in the other’s forum, which would have the higher winning percentage? A ring fighter’s abilities will always, hands down, work far better for him in the street than a streetfighter’s abilities could ever help him in a ring fight.

Joe Lewis

Joe Lewis is one of the greatest fighters of all time and was voted so by his peers in a 1983 survey done by Karate Illustrated. Lewis is best known for being World Champion in 2 separate sports, Karate and Kickboxing, plus being the founding father of Kickboxing in the Western Hemisphere.

I couldnt get anything useful from this article, Joe Lewis is a ring fighter who wants to bang a loud drum about ring fighters being just at good at street fighting as "street fighters"? Just who are these "street fighters" anyway? And why does he care?

A human being is trained to do a specific task or is not.

A human being is capable of doing the specific task or not.

RBSD vs MMA vs Krav Maga vs streetfightsecrets vs "get in my guard" vs Sport Karate vs American Kickboxing vs Muay Thai vs my UFC fighting school vs your UFC fighting school vs Quinton vs Forrest vs Steven Seagal vs Bruce Lee vs Palm vs Fist vs hard style vs soft style vs Mike Tysons Broken Hand and Wrist vs the other Boxer's skull after Tyson tried punching without the wrapped hand and 8 oz glove on vs Frank Shamrock vs "his very sensible outlook of never wanting to get in a street fight because they are scary as he has publicly stated- good on 'im" vs Im a bitter old man who is behind the times and doesnt get enough attention so Im going to have an angry rant about nothing vs I am SO FUCKING BORED OF THIS LINE OF DEBATE vs I remember Joe Lewis doing this same thing about grapplers 10 years ago in the same magazine vs I dont care vs just being specific in your training proportionate to your specific objectives vs ghandi's old nappy

Richard Grannon wrote:

RBSD vs MMA vs Krav Maga vs streetfightsecrets vs "get in my guard" vs Sport Karate vs American Kickboxing vs Muay Thai vs my UFC fighting school vs your UFC fighting school vs Quinton vs Forrest vs Steven Seagal vs Bruce Lee vs Palm vs Fist vs hard style vs soft style vs Mike Tysons Broken Hand and Wrist vs the other Boxer's skull after Tyson tried punching without the wrapped hand and 8 oz glove on vs Frank Shamrock vs "his very sensible outlook of never wanting to get in a street fight because they are scary as he has publicly stated- good on 'im" vs Im a bitter old man who is behind the times and doesnt get enough attention so Im going to have an agry rant about nothing vs I am SO FUCKING BORED OF THIS LINE OF DEBATE vs I remember Joe Lewis doing this same thing about grapplers 10 years ago in the same magazine vs I dont care vs just being specific in your training proportionate to your specific objectives vs ghandi's old nappy

Holy shit, I almost passed out from lack of oxygen reading that! Ran out of breath...

No offense taken, I disagree with the article as well...

Im sorry but I just CANNOT reisist:

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If you have never endured the experience standing toe to toe with this type of world-class fighter while having him fire educated punches, kicks, elbows, and knees with cold-blooded, world-class accuracy and conviction, then you can’t speak from knowledge or with any confidence, nor have the slightest clue about what you’re talking on the subject of fighting.

what the fuck is this utter elitist bullshit?

Quote :

People pursuing martial arts have been for years conditioned to ask all the wrong questions. The classic misleading question, "What combat martial art is the best?" The real question should be, "Why do I need martial arts?" Martial arts is like dieting; it is not, "What do I eat," but more importantly, "Why do I eat?"

is he trying to say "what are my objectives?" because if he is and your objectives are " I want to learn how to fight, but not in a ring or a cage... maybe in a car or a bar or on a plane or on a bus or a kebab shop" Then guess what?
Learning to do sport karate or kickboxing a la Joe Lewis is NOT the answer! God I wish it were, how simple life would be... but learning to kickbox or any kind of combat sport can give you skills and attributes that are applicable to a str33t context.
Why oh why, christ on high do we have to make such a big mental division inside our heads??? people arent that dumb!!! they CAN deal with the ambiguity!

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In the animal kingdom, snakes don’t fight like birds nor do tigers fight like butterflies. Humans have many technical challenges to overcome without trying to learn to fight like some kind of bird or insect or other animal type. Learning to fight like a human is difficult enough.

This has been said many many times by many many people in the last 20 years... why say it again?

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The only "records" streetfighters have are down at the police department. The seasoned officers with whom I’ve worked describe their many encounters with streetfighters, for the most part, as being nothing more than a joke. These officers report that in the end, all they have is a big mouth.

anyone who claimed to "be a streetfighter" would by definition be a total twat unless they were actually Charles Bronson or Chung Lee

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treetfighter," and then with the same zeal, grant the streetfighter higher combat status, claiming ring fighters can’t streetfight? What major flaws does anyone detect rendering pro fighters helpless or at a disadvantage in a street fight when observing sport fighters, the likes of Mike Tyson or Frank Shamrock and others?

who has ever said "ring fighters cant street fight"??? I know some virulently anti sport combat RBSD instructors but Ive never heard anyone say that
as to the second part, right off the top of my head?
1.punching with gloves on is SIGNIFICANTLY different than punching bareknuckle as Mike Tyson himself proved when he busted his knuckles and wrist in a brawl!!!
2. the concrete sucks to grapple on- I know, my base is combat sports and grappling is altered by tarmac and bottles, I know this from fisrt hand experience

these are just two disadvantages of sport combat training to street scenarios

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Take 10 top professional fighters ("K-1," "U.F.C.," "Pride," etc.) and put them into a street context. Most rational experts would overwhelmingly select the outcome to largely favor the pros.

Against who? this isnt even a rational argument!!!

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Streetfighting does have its place, but is streetfighting nothing more than a well-timed trick or sucker punch?

Simply answered:No it isnt.

Stick to teaching kickboxing. Stay within your operational experience, you already admitted you've never even seen a street fight let alone been in one so you arent qualified to instruct on the subject.

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Lastly, I can assure you that a much greater number of ring fighters have tested and proven their skills in the "street" than the number of streetfighters who have ever entered the ring. If you took 10 top ring fighters and 10 top streetfighters and let each group test their skills in the other’s forum, which would have the higher winning percentage? A ring fighter’s abilities will always, hands down, work far better for him in the street than a streetfighter’s abilities could ever help him in a ring fight.

This is just nonsense. Who are these street fighters? If a lad trained in cage fighting goes and has a load of street fights is he a "ring fighter" or a "street fighter"... there is no clearly identifiable thing called a "street fighter", but being a "ring fighter" is clearly identifiable

I think Joe Lewis has a chip on his shoulder and insecurities about dealing with rough arseholes who dont respect or know of his kickboxing titles in less than ideal scenarios.

I know of plenty of MMA fighters who can and do have it in the street regularly. I cant think off the top of my head of anyone who I would call a "street fighter" as such, it just doesnt compute for me.

Well done Joe Lewis for holding everyone back with meaningless inflammatory bullshit arguments riddled with circular logic and inaccuracy... its not even a proper debate!

You may as well argue the case of ring fighters vs werewolves... they (werewolves) dont exist ergo its fucking meaningless

there are plenty of fit, strong, well trained people out there who dont believe that speed power and accuracy are under the sole ownership of men who choose to play "fighting themed" sporting GAMES in sterile controlled environments:

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Nor could the streetfighter maintain professional speed, power, and accuracy, which take years of hard training to develop, working with tough sparring partners aided by profoundly smart trainers.

So only pro combat sports people can learn to fight? Then why does Joe Lewis teach self defence?

Didnt Joe Lewis attack grapplers in much the same way 10 years ago in Black Belt?

I do not consider myself or anyone "a street fighter" but I do strongly object to this guy claiming ownership of skills and ability- the sheer fucking arrogance !!!

Elitist pompous bullshit.

Dont buy into this, you dont have to be a ring "fighter" (game player) to protect yourself or to learn to fight.

Joe Lewis, Go comb your hair you silly old man.

brought this back into general section and reopened it for a larf

So, I take it from your analysis that you disagree a little with what Joe wrote?

ha! yeah... and Im a big supporter of using aspects of sport combat for street focussed training, Im a kickboxer at heart but what he is coming out with is just badly thought out drivvle.

I think his intentions are good, but his thought process got mixed up.

When my instructor first came to the US he had no boxing experience. He joined a local gym in a rough neighborhood where one individual proceeded knock him out every chance he had for six months. After a while he'd had enough and told the individual that if it were a straight out street fight he would anhialate him - they took it outside and my instructor delivered a beating to the guy (aka - tenacious resolve).

I myself get frustrated sometimes when doing combat sports because I feel limited - can't do what I want to do - you know, against the rules and all that shit...

well his intentions may be good, but we shouldn't make excuses for him

the funniest part of the article is referencing Mike Tyson and Frank Shamrock... Ive seen Frank in interview specifically saying that he sees MMA as just a sport and though he has been in street fights he's not interested in them.

It was a moronic and offensive article that doesnt move sport / street training forward.

Do whatever it takes to meet your specific training objectives.

Fuck this sport vs street bullshit.

Its ego based nonsense propagated by insecure people with small penises more interested in what style you do and your grade than your actual INDIVIDUAL skills and abilities.

My kick and thai training with gary sandland and bob spour when I was younger gave me some wicked strikes that could be applied if it went off in the gents- does that mean I need to trot about in my thai shorts / shiny kickboxing trousers saying its "the best"? fuck no! why do people have to be so rigid in their thinking?

"im a kickboxer, i have a kickboxing tshirt and sown into my underpants it says "kickboxing is the best""

maybe as instructors we have a moral obligation to put our personal preferences/ egos to one side and focus on how we can best train students to fulfill their objectives rather than our own? maybe... just maybe

PLease dont tell me this man doesn't have an agenda...

oh a ring fighter thinks ring fighting is the best thing since sliced bread and ring fighters are as hard as 10 bastards??

well I never... quelle surprise

"maybe as instructors we have a moral obligation to put our personal preferences/ egos to one side and focus on how we can best train students to fulfill their objectives rather than our own? maybe... just maybe"

I agree.

if we all did that things would move so much quicker, this industry needs a shot in the arm/ kick up the sphincter