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trumpeter



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PostSubject: The image we project   Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:48 pm

Hi all, I just found this site by chance from the youtube videos.

I live in London. Recently I've become more aware of body language between males when out and about in the street, on public transport etc.. London is a very crowded place with plenty of opportunity to bump into others.

Last night I was getting a tube at a busy station and as I approached the tube door, a suited guy was coming the other way. We could have avoided coming into physical contact had he slowed a little and turned his body as I did, but instead he continued at the same speed and shoulder barged me. This is the second or third time I've had this happen recently. Usually I just go home feeling annoyed and frustrated, questioning what it is about me that suggests to others males, especially suited ones, that I can be disrespected in this way.

Anyhow, on this occasion, instinct just took over. I spun round and punched the guy as hard as I could. He was bigger than me but still went flying. Fortunately it did not escalate. He just mustered a 'fuck off' and went off red faced.

This was really uncharacteristic for me. I don't think I've hit anyone for 5 years and usually avoid violence at all costs because I seize up with panic and am not strong or experienced. The adrenalin was coursing through my body and I was so tense I almost tripped over stepping in and out of the train carriage.

So what I am wondering is, what is it about me that is encouraging this to happen? What can I do to fix it? I know lots of people who never ever seems to have this happen. Even though they are not physically imposing, they just give off a 'vibe', something about the way they look and act, that encourages others to step out of their way. While others, like me, seem to give off a 'vibe' that says the opposite.

To give some idea of how I look. I'm 30 years old, 6ft, 73kg, broad shoulders but with a light bone structure, e.g. thin wrists and small hands. I have some oriental genetics, so perhaps I lack some of the staple masculine characteristics of westerners such as a large angular jaw, a 5 o'clock and a heavier structure relative to my height. As far as I can tell I dress ordinarily: jeans, t-shirt, plain jacket. I am wearing my hair a bit long at the moment though.
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darktim99

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PostSubject: Re: The image we project   Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:15 pm

lol hows it going mate?

just touched upon this on the "in my defense" thread in general section

its called the "easy target". you just said your not big and strong. also your tall but your slight built. you dont LOOK hard! people see you as an easy target and will take advantage of it. do you train in anything? use this motto, i do, "talk quietly and carry a big stick!". this means look weak and keep your slef to yourself, BUT if shit starts rip there heads off.

also its has to do with confidence too. you said you reacted on instinct. this is good. be happy and proud in that. alot of people dont have that instinct. at least YOU know that IF something happens you will do soemthing in your defence. again to go back to you post you said you hit him and he fucked off. aint that the true sign of a defeated bully? i believe you did what you said you did. on the few occasions ive been to london ive found that people are ignorant and push others out of the way as if THEIR time is more precsious then yours! fuck em.

you did the right thing. its about being confident trumpeter. thats why WE train the way we do. we familiarise ourselves with certain situations. learn functional methods to help defend our selves and tap into our insticnts and hone them so we can call upon them. all this makes us more confident to walk with our head held high everyday knowing you can at least look after your slef and others.

i give you top marks for what you did. why must HE push you? what gives him the right? if it was an accident he would have said sorry and not got punched. it wasnt and you defended yoursefl. he came off worse. so he wont do that again.
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RichardB



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PostSubject: Re: The image we project   Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:21 pm

Interesting question. It is something I have messed around with a bit.

It seems to me that state of mind may be of greater importance here than direct outside features. Clothes, etc. Of course everything adds up though, but state of mind seems disproportionately influential.

Think about dogs. If you have the slightest fear or trepidation as you walk by, they pick up on it. Same with confidence. They can smell fear but I don't think that is what is going on. They are excellent readers of body language. Whatever you're thinking, you tend to leak it through body language and small mannerisms. And this seems to play a huge part in what other people percieve about you.

Personally I don't like fighting. Dangerous on many levels. Health, law, social factors, etc. I don't challenge people, don't escalate , don't invite to that game. So if someone else offers it I do NOT intend to play around. As far as it is up to me to decide, they're not even getting a chance. Not if I can help it anyway. This combination may find it's way of leaking through body language and mannerisms.

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darktim99

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PostSubject: Re: The image we project   Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:49 pm

agreed, just be confident
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thugsage
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PostSubject: Re: The image we project   Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:05 pm

T,
a quick answer...if you aren't jogging or doing something that gives your body natural physical
movement that hints of athleticism--start. your original question hints at, "what is it they see?"
easy athletic gate, blank relaxed facials, and a gentle but firm 'fence'. you've a right to it. in the
light situations of which you speak, the fence is still an applicable starting point from which to
draw. modern fights don't carry as much warning--as stated by Richie. a gentle lead 'tenticle'
guiding someone out of your personal space-to-be-respected is a guide to range, a message of
the respect you're entitled to, and a stiff arm to putting a head off line--should a fight actually
develop, your rear hand is now in the position to follow up [if needed].

the more you do this, the less you'll fire off incensed by all the other times this missing piece
was not in place.

not the geof thompson esque fired fence, but rather a gentle, "off you go mate, that's me you're
not paying attention to" sort of a fence.

my opinion

good luck,

-russ

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PostSubject: Re: The image we project   Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:45 am

ahh this is a good topic! Cool

I used to experience this more often than I would have liked. I was thinner, had longer hair, and well, proabably looked like a wimp to some. I was a musician, not concerned with being 'macho' or tough lol!

...until one day someone took me for a wimp and decided to mugg me and threaten myself and my fiance. I was a wimp, I felt like one, and not being able to do anything about it made me feel so low. That feeling to this day, when thinking about it, makes me feel sick and repulsed at who I used to be. Never again Twisted Evil

I dove hard into training, and in the past year's time, I've studied some new styles, re-visited some old ones, and found my way here Wink I've also managed to put on over 30lbs of muscle on my frame (I'm 5'10'') and I'm not done yet... not by a long shot in any aspect of training... but what a difference a year makes.

Now I used to get bumped into and 'walked through' as you're describing far too often and it used to piss me off. Geneerally that doesn't happen anymore. I for one, have noticed people get out of my way a lot more. I don't necessarily expect that, as I still believe in common courtesy and if you make the effort to move partially out of the way I will as well, every time. What makes this happen? Well I'm not 100% sure but my Fiance tells me I walk differently now and I think she's right.

In kickboxing I was always having to make a conscious effort to keep my chin tucked in. Now your head position and angle controls the alightnment of your spine and your posture to a large degree.If you straighten your neck a tad and tuck in your chin you will also end up straightening your shoulders and back. I've foud this also affects my stride and the way I walk, and I think walking with a bit more confidence and 'purpose' sprinkled with a bit of 'don't fuck with me' attitude helps immensely. Twisted Evil

That ...and getting a hair cut Wink

My fiance has also noticed, lol, that I get dirty looks now, on a regular basis, from other 'alpha male' types. I get a great kick out of this as I consider this to be a compliment. Out of everyone on the train in the morning on the way to work, this goon has decided that I'm the formidable adversary. This never happened in the past. I just laugh it off and carry on with my business as I've got far more important things to contend with than territorial pissings Laughing

I've also found that this same 'alpha male' type is now far more likely to apply common courtesy when walking past me and move out of my way!! lol! ... this never would have happened before.

There is still the odd instance when someone thinks they are going to walk through me. This happens a lot when trying to get off of the train. People crowd the doors trying to get on before you can get out the doors. If people think they are going to walk over me in this manner I will lay a stiff shoulder into them to give em something to think about. flower

The Bottom line for me: The image we project is very important. Think about how you want to be seen and viewed in life. If you feel you need to make some adjustments, go on and make them, you'll only be happier you did in the end. study
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trumpeter



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PostSubject: Re: The image we project   Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:25 am

Thanks for the response fellas.

I think I should probably start training. Can anyone recommend where to start? There seem to be so many styles you guys talk about. Which is/are the best ones?

From about the age of 18 - 24 I used to attempt in outward appearances to look tough. I used to shave my head and wear thick and baggy layers of clothes to make myself look bigger. I guess it worked a bit, but I never really felt comfortable with the whole idea of having to act in this way just to get by instead of being myself. Also I found looking like a scumbag was not helpful in persuing the type of women I like!

David, how did you manage to pack on 30lbs of muscle? I weight trained for 3 years solid but never managed to pack on any visible mass. I think at my best I got to around 78kg (I'm 6ft) doing intense compound lifting and eating totally clean. I just don't tend to pack muscle on. I guess I've inherited genetics which insist my frame must remain thin and soft looking.
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D.M.B.

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PostSubject: Re: The image we project   Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:39 pm

trumpeter wrote:
Thanks for the response fellas.

I think I should probably start training. Can anyone recommend where to start? There seem to be so many styles you guys talk about. Which is/are the best ones?

From about the age of 18 - 24 I used to attempt in outward appearances to look tough. I used to shave my head and wear thick and baggy layers of clothes to make myself look bigger. I guess it worked a bit, but I never really felt comfortable with the whole idea of having to act in this way just to get by instead of being myself. Also I found looking like a scumbag was not helpful in persuing the type of women I like!

David, how did you manage to pack on 30lbs of muscle? I weight trained for 3 years solid but never managed to pack on any visible mass. I think at my best I got to around 78kg (I'm 6ft) doing intense compound lifting and eating totally clean. I just don't tend to pack muscle on. I guess I've inherited genetics which insist my frame must remain thin and soft looking.

I think one of the reasons we all talk about different styles a lot is that we are all borrowers. There are elements of each style that we've found apply to the 'street.' I don't think there is a 'best.' There would just be a style or a few styles that you are suited for and will gravitate to. Your journey doesn't have to end once you find a style you like though. I've done karate and kickboxing but now find myself really wanting to give jujitsu a go.

If you watch Richie's vids/dvd's after doing some martial arts on your own you'll start to recognize aspects and principals of other styles in some of his work. cheers Also, the psychological aspect in his work is really top notch. Check out his youtube chanel if you haven't already.

How did I put on 30lbs? Well first off it's a bit of a shock for me too. When I was in my teens and playing Hockey a lot I was always trying to put on weight and never could. I'd train everyday and wouldn't get any results. It didn't click for me until I did a little more research and realized that I actually needed to count calories !! lol! I thought dieters only did that Laughing

For the amount of training I was doing combined with my lifestyle (having a job that involved moderate physical work throughout the day) I needed to be consuming just over 3,000 calories per day! Surprised This means eating more of course, and eating consistent and healthy.

I also realized that immeditately after working out was the best time to replenish what my muscles would need in the way of carbs and proteins to rebuild. This meant a suppliment/protein shake after each hard workout at the gym, which I do 3-4 times a week, or every second day. On off days when I'm not at the gym I'll do other things like hit the bag.

Rest is important too. If you're going all out in the gym it'll take it's toll and you'll burn out. Also, I find it useful to vary my workout and attack the weights in a different order.

Finally, I think that my motivation this time around is different. If I don't feel particularly motivated to work out/train on a given day, all I have to do is think about how I felt a year ago and that sickening feeling comes back again. Evil or Very Mad

Anyways I hope some of this helps. It's obviously just my personal experience here, and what works for you may be entirely different, so do as much research as you can into training and nutrition and you'll find something that works for you. study
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RichardB



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PostSubject: Re: The image we project   Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:42 pm

Upon first reading and replying to this thread, I was thinking about limited size-up/eye-duel/half-interview situations, and the like, in which case I am determined to hospitalize the motherfucker. Not alpha or beta but more feral in nature And there's state-transmission/body language leakage etc working it's magic. But in truth it seems apparent that I'm neglecting the larger pattern. In virtually everything but that I'm pretty sure I'm projecting a bunch of nonsense. Laughing

General appearance, in terms of clothing, mannerisms, the social image projected through conversation and so on. Those are things about which no shit has been given. And impressions count. People usually see mostly what is presented to them. Hmm... This is an area for more work.

Looking like a hard target Vs. the interview phase is one thing. A BIG thing. Very common to hear crimnals say they just take whoever looks like they won't put up a fight. But think about all the other things in life than depends on other people's perception of you.

Now, styles. IMO don't pay much attention to the idea of "styles." They're someone's assembled tactical solution to "the other guys" whoever they were and whatever they did, somewhere, someplace. May not be all that relevant to you, today. The main thing is just becoming skilled at beating the shit out of people. That's all it is about in the end. Boxing might be worthwhile. Muay thai. Something like that. Simple and aggressive.

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maija
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PostSubject: Re: The image we project   Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:21 pm

I'm going to make a stab at connecting this thread, to the 'Being prepared without being paranoid' thread.
A few things interest me personally here.

Firstly how physical training can alter mental and emotional well being. Now obviously there can be a direct correlation between aggressively hitting a bag, and generating a more aggressive state (...or is it the other way around?) But I also think the 'adrenal state' as the Dog brothers call it, or some heightened emotional feeling can also be generated by a certain quality of movement, not necessarily aggressive striking. I think Steve Morris has some interesting stuff on this. It's more predator contemplating lunch than hard arse contemplating fight.
So then how does some kind of aggressive training translate into confidence? Is it because you can now access this aggressive state as you walk around, other people feel it and back off, giving you more confidence, or is it that training gives you confidence in your skills to deal with stuff, so you walk around with more confidence, and so people don't bug you...?

The second thing is that you can't pretend to have confidence, and project that mental attitude unless you HAVE it for real. Spend some time around any non compliant animals (dogs and horses are good) and see how far pretending gets you ...
Funny thing is, though I'm sure you can practice some NLP to directly work on confidence, often it's doing something else, like weight training, martial practice or riding motorcycles fast, that generates confidence. So again, the connection between physical experience and mental state ...

Lastly here's is another idea, more off the beaten track perhaps, but something I play with.
The contrary side of me likes to project the 'wrong' image and surprise people. I have come to enjoy being under estimated. It seems to have something in common with Russell Sage's psycho mixed signal approach .... being a mismatch of signals as it were.
I also like playing games to entertain myself, for instance, particularly in crowded situations, trying to slip contact at the last minute and avoid any touch - being 'invisible' as it were. I'm sure it might look weird to people trying to bump into me, but I'm upping my 'ninja skills' so who gives a frack. Seeing every obnoxious idiot out there is a training tool to practice evasion and range skills is a fun practice.
Funnily enough this way of seeing day to day interactions as a game, also creates confidence in a side long manner.
I'm sure I don't need to point out that the place to 'play' is NOT during real threat situations, but at other points during the day when the general idiocy called human nature meets you in irritating, but not life threatening situations ...

Well, reading this back, this is not particularly coherent, but here it is anyway ... Very Happy

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thugsage
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PostSubject: Re: The image we project   Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:36 pm

Maija wrote///
"I have come to enjoy being under estimated. It seems to have something in common with Russell Sage's psycho mixed signal approach .... being a mismatch of signals as it were."

ha ha...mental judo...expect one thing, present another. push this way--body resists, be thrown another way. but let me just say that i enjoy the monikar 'psycho' all the better. lol!

Maija wrote///
"So then how does some kind of aggressive training translate into confidence? Is it because you can now access this aggressive state as you walk around, other people feel it and back off, giving you more confidence"

i think so, but not as an obvious selling point. i think the customer that is buying the agro product to be
convinced is oneself. as you feel the dog on the leash--metaphor building, your confidence starts to giggle at what you have at your disposal. that wicked ease that you now display on your countenance
feeds into the other person's self doubt because it doesn't compute to the expectations previously indulged upon aproaching you. they shrink, you grow...they shrink, you grow...and sometimes, maybe counterintuitively there is a desire to speak softly when one is particularly built up from inside. part spectator, part participant...it then becomes possible to enjoy the show from within and without. my version of out of body experience isn't literal--i suspect...it's sort of doing, whilst being aware of doing. i personally think it's my own mind playing a trick so as to process what is happening. here's me feeling this, looking like that, dissassociating to further avoid my direct past relationships with adrenal seizure. i'm now 'high' from this dissassociating--becuase i've removed my overly rationally puss head from the whole event by creating an image that is almost beheaded from the real picture. now i'm really chinamasta lol!


Maija wrote///
"but I'm upping my 'ninja skills' so who gives a frack"

and there it is, freedom affraid taken from another thread...something about power being one
thing, and freedom being unleashed and immeasurably bigger.

piggy backing on what RichardB said, psychologist mind is where it's at--it's so much bigger. you're in
the control towers looking at everything--potentially taking in things that aren't generally at one's dispossal. not in some pretentious superiority complex self indulgent way, but more in a manipulative
master criminal sort of way--but for good purposes. batman the dark knight lol! maybe it's a metaphor. when i was little--and really fooked up in the head. i imagined i was walking a tight rope between good and evil. like some OCD nutter carefully performing ocean's eleven capoira across life. feeling like both coexisted. i think the world can--if that's where your head is at, be negotiated like a
calculating tight rope walker. i've always like robin hood because he danced in the middle somewhere. there's less pretense away from the extremes. you have a different vantage point. you have the [RichardB] discerning sword of truth at your dispossal. and the [Richie ninja] ability to take what works but not at the expense of what doesn't. no dogma means this, taking a hard stance against anything doesn't. i've always thought athiests were ridiculous people, because they speak with all the faith based apodictic ferver as the average funda"mental"ist. whilst the other group [name escapes me] that simply says, "maybe He does exist, maybe he does not...who knows...but lets look at why what religions have had to offer have worked for people over the millenia" [is it agnostic]. throw out the bath water, but not the baby.

not being paranoid--hmmm...i think Maija originally connected the dots because if you train, you'll find avenues to agro that will convey to others. i personally think one should try combatives first--a selfish
one sided act, then dabble into boxing gyms and kickboxing arena for reality checks. and balance the two. just going into a boxing gym sort of sets one up for following the hierarchy of sports champions.
circle and punch...ding...he hits better on the bag--oh well...keep the shots clean...move around...throw this, throw that. i'd get into brain washing like a explosive little shit first, then play the arena for a wee bit of conditioning to being hit, and some exploration of what is as close to fighting whilst practicing as can be afforded. let your foundation be in reality. my humble opinion. especially since you'll be sports coached in other arenas, and as such be seduced into training in a way that must be untrained later. i knew a guy that i've seen fight many times--successfully. he lost his first white belt fight in DC, and promptly left with his confidence in tact, rather then get into what he seemed to feel was a humiliation game. that was an extreme response--on his part. but i see the value in mix-and-matching. balancing for good measure. taking oneself out of comfort and breaking down. building it back up with drills and padwork.

to the original question, long since drowned out with words lol! , several things have contributed to my mental state--positively, and corresponding image. my self image projected [superficial]; my time training [internal]; my sense of the psychological states of people. sort of seeing the whole thing like a scramble for the same confidence and mindfooks--so then lets just make the first move and watch for changes. to watch and participate in one's own act. to dissassociate to a point where you are an extension of what you train for. i think criminals do this. i can't count the times someone's been trying me and i can almost see an expression on their face that reads, "did it work?". they have failed to dissassociate, putting to much into the successful act of winning. i think you should walk the tight rope intelligently, but not with much expectation...and let the training sit behind you not far away like the big dog you've been walking 3 times a week for pocket money.

scratch

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PostSubject: Re: The image we project   Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:27 pm

good thread

trumpeter, you mentioned your oriental genetics, you should look into the chinese cultural mindset that enjoys underestimation (as Maija mentioned)- who is the owner of the restaurant? the polished suit or the unshaven guy in the tracksuit? remember the main baddy in "Kung Fu Hussle"?
Looks are nothing. Ability, intent and confidence are everything when you actually engage with the reality of someone instead of the projected illusion.

Force people to engage with the reality of who you are by making eye contact with them coming into your space, smiling and sayin "alright mate". Simple. Engage. Project intent. Be in the right. Be polite, be professional, be assertive but not aggressive.

There you go,

I just saved you 4 years worth of weights and ruining your digestive system with expensive portein supplements. That will be 20,000 pounds please Laughing

following this theme let me mention two mates of mine

Reg W, an instructor in his own right, big and strong, loves to train, shaved head, scowls a lot and looks "hard" he's in some of the Beta8 dvds

Mandick T. also chinese, but shorter, quite overweight, glasses, usually carries a "man bag", wears flip flops and loves to wear the colours yellow and orange and smiles all the time- he's in the one punch knockout dvds

who do you think people are more intimidated by?
Ive watched peoples reactions round London to both, nobody really gives either of them trouble, but generally people are far more intimidated by Mandick.

Reg puts this down to being high energy or having "strong chi" which is a result of his training, he believes. When his mates get intimidates or get racist comments slung their way he says its because they have "weak chi".

Mandick puts his effect down to confidence. His confidence switch has somehow been broken in the "on " position. He is insanely confident as he believes there is NO useful reason not to be.

Both come down to belief.

Bear this in mind before you go down a road of thinking you have to "bulk up" to look "hard" and project confidence. I think its nonsense.

You dont have to. If you want to do it then go for it, but it isnt necessary.
Do it for a good reason like: you will get a kick from the training and the "look" or because your girlfriend will like it.

Not to stop people bumping into your space on the tube. Its "angry/ fearful" intent manifesting and it will give you bad results.

People are simultaneously drawn to and initmidated by raw confidence. Plain and simple.

If you think getting muscly and learning to fight will overcome this commonly experienced Social Anxiety Disorder you are wrong. No that it cant or doestn work to a degree, but it just isnt necessary as such.

Also I can point you to many chaps who are very big and muscly and very skillful fighters but their insecurity EATS them daily.

And you dont need to cut your hair or change your clothes unless wearing those clothes or having your hair like that makes you FEEL like a tool.

Your probably just a bit shy and need a course in self assertiveness mate, not "throat ripping" Very Happy I recommend you have a listen to the Verbal Conflict cds available from the website

hope this helps

awesome thread study
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PostSubject: Re: The image we project   Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:15 am

Richard Grannon wrote:
good thread

trumpeter, you mentioned your oriental genetics, you should look into the chinese cultural mindset that enjoys underestimation (as Maija mentioned)- who is the owner of the restaurant? the polished suit or the unshaven guy in the tracksuit? remember the main baddy in "Kung Fu Hussle"?
Looks are nothing. Ability, intent and confidence are everything when you actually engage with the reality of someone instead of the projected illusion.

Force people to engage with the reality of who you are by making eye contact with them coming into your space, smiling and sayin "alright mate". Simple. Engage. Project intent. Be in the right. Be polite, be professional, be assertive but not aggressive.

There you go,

I just saved you 4 years worth of weights and ruining your digestive system with expensive portein supplements. That will be 20,000 pounds please Laughing

following this theme let me mention two mates of mine

Reg W, an instructor in his own right, big and strong, loves to train, shaved head, scowls a lot and looks "hard" he's in some of the Beta8 dvds

Mandick T. also chinese, but shorter, quite overweight, glasses, usually carries a "man bag", wears flip flops and loves to wear the colours yellow and orange and smiles all the time- he's in the one punch knockout dvds

who do you think people are more intimidated by?
Ive watched peoples reactions round London to both, nobody really gives either of them trouble, but generally people are far more intimidated by Mandick.

Reg puts this down to being high energy or having "strong chi" which is a result of his training, he believes. When his mates get intimidates or get racist comments slung their way he says its because they have "weak chi".

Mandick puts his effect down to confidence. His confidence switch has somehow been broken in the "on " position. He is insanely confident as he believes there is NO useful reason not to be.

Both come down to belief.

Bear this in mind before you go down a road of thinking you have to "bulk up" to look "hard" and project confidence. I think its nonsense.

You dont have to. If you want to do it then go for it, but it isnt necessary.
Do it for a good reason like: you will get a kick from the training and the "look" or because your girlfriend will like it.

Not to stop people bumping into your space on the tube. Its "angry/ fearful" intent manifesting and it will give you bad results.

People are simultaneously drawn to and initmidated by raw confidence. Plain and simple.

If you think getting muscly and learning to fight will overcome this commonly experienced Social Anxiety Disorder you are wrong. No that it cant or doestn work to a degree, but it just isnt necessary as such.

Also I can point you to many chaps who are very big and muscly and very skillful fighters but their insecurity EATS them daily.

And you dont need to cut your hair or change your clothes unless wearing those clothes or having your hair like that makes you FEEL like a tool.

Your probably just a bit shy and need a course in self assertiveness mate, not "throat ripping" Very Happy I recommend you have a listen to the Verbal Conflict cds available from the website

hope this helps

awesome thread study

I think Richie hit the nail on the head here!

What I have done, and am doing with my own training was right for me, and may very well not be right for someone else, or anyone really, except me....I like what i see when I look in the mirror now and I enjoy life a lot more feeling good on the inside. The exterior is an extension of that but I look at the physical/appearance changes as a side effect of internal change and development.

...and the way people may treat me differently now as opposed to before is an interesting side effect, however if that was my only reason for training that'd be pretty messed up now wouldn't it? lol! I consider it a pleasant surprise but certainly nothing beyond that.

and finally, yes protein suppliment can be nasty if you follow the directions on the container. I don't know how people can have three servings of that stuff a day. I just have a glass of it after being at the gym and that's three times a week... I don't even bother if I'm on the bag at home... I just eat more lol.

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darktim99

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Join date : 2009-05-14
Location : st helens

PostSubject: Re: The image we project   Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:48 pm

yo trumpter lift big weights buy a punch bag and straddle it. beat the shit out of it every other day and you'll get a little confidence to build up the rest. its just that mate confidence.
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