Duel In Venezuelan Prison

Someone posted this clip a while back on The Dog Brothers forum, and some time after the link stopped working. I've been trying to find it ever since because I think it is very interesting to watch - the dynamic changes so much when both parties are armed.
Anyway someone found it again:
http://www.livevideo.com/video/E8365A8226A04C6DAD424D148DA6E6AA/fight-jail-in-venezuela.aspx

you have to have some guts to go in a fight with real knifes..
or stupid, but respect to the fighters!

So dangerous to do that Bruce Lee-style jabby-jabby, slashy-slashy stuff in knife fighting. It's totally counter-intuitive, but the truth is you must close and 'clinch' with the enemy. I don't mean necessarily the sports type clinch, but you must control the weapon-bearing limb.

Although, having said that, those guys look like they have developed the attributes to maybe pull it off. Closing and clinching is difficult to do on somebody with such fast footwork.

Either way... I've done enough Dog Brother style weapon sparring to know that it all sucks. In a knife fight, one man bleeds and the other man gushes.

Don't think I agree with you on the clinching thing, especially with both parties armed. Dueling with blades is rather a different animal than most anything else, due to it's potentially lethal nature.
They were at it till very recently in the Phillipines, (in fact they are probably still at it!) and I know from my teacher, who had his share of challenge matches, and of documented stories of Antonio Ilustrissimo, who recently died at the ripe old age of 90 something, that often only one person gets cut, and that's the end of it. Draw blood, game over.
I believe, from the historical accounts that I have read about dueling in the west, that that was often the way there as well - honor was satisfied.
I'm interested in this clip because it is so rare to see 2 people actually dueling with blades ... for obvious reasons ..... and to compare what I know from the style of Eskrima I practice (Visayan Corto Kadena Eskrima) to what it actually looks like.
The psychology here is also fascinating to look at, comparing the dynamic between the players, and how it plays out in the duel.

PS: Regarding the 'control of the weapon bearing arm' thing .... https://streetfightsecrets.darkbb.com/general-f3/knife-dvds-t689.htm

Firstly, I want to say that this isn't a subject I enjoy anymore. I've had this conversation too many times. No offense to you of course, but personally I never intend on going knife-to-knife with anybody and can't think of many scenarios in which I would have to.

From personal training experience, I have found that (personally) if I really had to take out somebody who had a knife and i had a knife available, and i had a choice in the matter, it would go something like this (assuming that for some odd reason, we were in the middle of the Sahara and there aren't any items to throw at him first like chairs)....

I'd put my knife in my waistband/sheath/whatever. And lure him in to come and attack me. I'd play the submissive "I don't wanna fight" thing and as he came in to attack, I'd suddenly close on him, clinch him up (standing or grounded at this point) and if I couldn't diminish him with strikes to the head, I'd try and draw my weapon and proceed to open up some of arteries (if they were accessible).

Why? Because knife-fighting in the duelistic sense is crazy. When sparring with simulated blades, experienced instructors get 'killed' by newbie students quite often. It's just so easy to lose. With both hands free, I have found that I can defend against dynamic knife attacks much better. And even if I am knife sparring, I still end up using so much unarmed techniques that the knife just becomes something extra to think about. The only time I'd 'knife fight' is if the guy had a combat folder and I had a bolo.

Knife dueling reminds of of BJJ. There are counters to counters to counter counters. It's almost sport like. Just like pugilism, it's not really that necessary for the street but it can be fun to get into and explore. And with knife fighting you can explore forever and still get killed by a lucky ameture. And if you explore too much there is the danger or becmoing deluded like the Sayoc guys (who I've trained with) These are games of tit for tat. I'm purely street in that sense that as much as I like a bit of tit, I'd rather just tatatatatatatatatatatat until the job is done.

RE: the weapons bearing limb thing. I'm not talking about catching the attacking arm. Suicide. I'm talking about forward pressure, crashing into the opponent bodily and then tying him up and diminishing him with whatever you can (which tends to be headbutts and biting when you're bear-hugging, but not always)

To be honest, if the above didn't make much sense then this threat will go on for a LOOOONG time. I think in the near future I'm just gonna make a video clip of knife defence pressure testing. Describing the process is quite difficult.


Peace out homie

PS - sometimes the diminishing happens before the tying-up. Every now and then, striking the head with a palm, fist or elbow whilst entering and closing the gap does a good job of ending the situation. Sometimes accidentally too. Think of two trains crashing into each other.

Tacpro -
I'm in absolute agreement with you on many of your points, and disagreement with some.
IMHO most people that simulate knife fights do not do so in a realistic manner, we know about the uncommitted 'I'll just stand here while you do your fancy moves' on one end of the spectrum, and on the other, when both participants have blades, is the 'I'm just going to run at you with my training blade even if i get killed in the process' approach.
One of the reasons I posted this video was that I think it shows realistic behavior when both parties are armed. One cannot underestimate the psychological effect of the blade.
There's a Gary Spiers interview posted by Richie way back now which has a great story about him seeing off a group of guys by waving around a Katana. My teacher also had his fair share of stories from the PI, and check out Antonio Ilustrissimo and his well documented duels, if you feel so inclined, to see what I mean.

Now to empty hand vs blade - I very much like Richie's "Knife Offence" DVD as a wonderfully pragmatic process of understanding what the best options are in a knife vs no knife scenario ... which as you point out, is what in all likelyhood a confrontation will be. I recommend it highly if you have the chance to get a copy, and it is the approach I would take if I found myself in that kind of situation. In fact it is almost identical to what my eskrima teacher suggested would be the best course of action from his experiences growing up in the blade culture of the Philippines.
I also agree whole heartedly with you on the bogus nature of the tit for tat mentality SO pervasive within the world of weapons arts. It is truly a crying shame as to much of what is being taught out there.
OTOH in my personal experience of training Eskrima, which as far as I have been able to research at least, is not much like what else is out there. I have learned an enormous amount from dueling with blades, swords no less!
Now, the chances of me walking around my neighbourhood a la 'Blade', with a sword down the back of my flowing leather coat are not exactly very high ... at least until the zombies come , but dueling with swords is not just about learning how to duel with swords - learning is not always that linear.
A while back Richie challenged me to write a short essay in under 1000 words about why it was a useful pursuit, and you will find it on the streetfightsecrets website in the articles section if you are so interested.

Yep, it's true about the knife attack simulation. The most common mistake is that they only attack in one way out of the possible three basic ways of being attacked...

They always charge at you, sending all their weight into you like a rugby player

They always come at you with soft slashy-slashy figure of eight motion that is designed to miss you anyway

They are always doing their best Bruce Lee /Paul Vunak impression and being all evasive while sending out long-range jab-type attacks.

In reality I suppose you could be attacked in all three ways. But I would say from the footage I've seen that the first is the most common type. Never seen many evasive-like knife attacks, but I guess it's important to train for it

By the way... a disclaimer. I've got a promo clip on my site which has some knife defence in it. Please don't judge me based on it. Without a wide-angle lense we had to stay within the shot so the knife defence looks pants I'm gonna change it soon


One day we'll all get together and train. Any plans for a seminar Rich?

I'll look for that article too

Cheers

I think alot depends on the intent, these guys , it seems were not out to kill each other jsut prove who is "mas macho".

Good point Danite.

There is a difference between fighting for pride/points/image and fighting because in your mind that other guy must die.

And so again, I don't ever intend on being in one of these macho situations and so I don't get into the slashy-slashy FMA stuff anymore. Did it for two months in Manila with Ernesto Presas. Was great, but I don't feel the need to do that again.

Train physically for the psycho killer. Most other things can be dealt with by submitting and walking way.

Tacpro hi! I agree with you.When we do scenario training and I see someone reach for a knife or gun I run away on the spot, thats it thats all.Of course we train to shut down and smother the attack if their is `no choice`but if I have the choice I run.However I think some training in knife sparring is worthwhile, in the same way boxing , is in my opinion, is excellent `basic training`for street orientated combatives.The body mechanics the skills the understanding of range , the foot work one can learn are helpful.As well its good to have it ìnt the tool box`if should find himself in that rare occasion in that type of deul scenario.Otherwise I agree with you, that self defence training should be highly focused on the realities for which we train, not for the occasional exception.In the Filipines and other places such macho deuls might be the reality for which they train but in the west thsi type of thing is rare in the extreme.Regards