Training recommendation?

I've recently been doing some krav maga training which includes partner drills, hitting pads, pressure testing for generating aggression etc. I've never really done full-contact and have never really had any fights/muggings etc to deal with.

Given my background, my question is am I better off sticking with the krav stuff or doing something like thai boxing/judo first and working on the self protection stuff on my own? I've got limited time I can devote to attending classes so I can really do one or the other.

try a bit of thai boxing / kickboxing. You might enjoy it.

Sometime people seem to forget that there are other reasons to train than purely street self protection. Becoming a decent sport combat fighter won't automatically make you worse at self protection. You'll certainly learn good core skills that you can apply to self protection training in the future.

My advise would be to find a club that definitely doesn't confuse the two. If a kickboxing / Muay Thai club has "learn self defense" on the flyer, it might not be the best choice (although not definitely). I personally feel that a few years with gloves on, sparring regularly, loads of pad work and stepping in the ring with strangers who want to knock me on my arse, were all good preperation for the self protection training i do now. Also, I enjoyed it. I never had the luxury of training partners my own size. If I trained properly I'd be a 155lb fighter (that's not actually what I weigh) but I've always had middleweight to heavyweight sparring partners. These days when I get to train with someone under 12 stone it feels like I'm fighting with a big advantage (even though they're the same size as me)

If you want to do more sport orientated martial arts but keep self protection in mind, then try developing a style that doesn't use a lot of flashy moves. What I mean is all fighters have their own favourite techniques. For some it's jumping this and spinning that. Others favour a good lead left hook or well drilled short combinations. The latter will have an easier time applying their skills to self protection.

Cheers Adam, some food for thought there.

I know what you mean about confusing the two. I have seen a flyer locally for one of those tae-bo type things that says you will also learn self defence in a friendly non-contact environment! (Probably while wearing lycra and listening to Eye of the Tiger...)

Another reason I asked is that a lot of the guys who are respected in SP have solid backgrounds in hard sparring/grappling sports. Guys with this kind of a background always seem to have an advantage.

I did systema for a while which included work on taking strikes so I know what it's like to take a dig but I also know it's not the same as real hard sparring. There are some truths we can only hide from for so long. I think you probably learn a lot more about yourself and what you are capable of when you glove up than you would learning a thousand secret squirrel killer ninja moves.

Probably a good idea to look around and see what's available in terms of thai boxing or judo.

That's something I've thought about before too. Guys who have several years in combat sports and/or traditional arts who are teaching self protection. To what degree does their background make it easier to be effective RBSD practitioners?

I appreciate that Richie's Beta-8 syllabus seems very effective at teaching unskilled students effective physical skills. I'm certainly having some success with the amterial with even my most junior students. I also know that Richie dismiss the benefits of other forms of combat training. It's more about remembering what it is you're training for. I'm sure Bob has no problem seperating his self protection techniques from his Muay Thai techniques.

Wehere are you based Traceur?

wow,
i think Adam has a good answer. even though it wasn't going to be how
i responded to the same guestion, i feel it covers all the bases philosophically.
my response is different. i feel like you can enjoy krav maga as well,
you can try to get a perspective and not become overly absorbed with
a feeling of being in a war-zone. but if you have self defense as a motivation at all, you're better off practicing what you'll use--especially as it relates to the appropriate mental states, pacing, targets, and speed.
i got into years ago, grew up being able to fight well enough--not a brut
but someone who wouldn't back down. when i took a martial sport, it changed the way i practiced such that i wasted some of my attacks kicking
the breadbasket (stomach), and punching well enough (just too drunk and
too ganged up on--all side kind of a thing. i might have lost anyway, if i had prepared differently, but i'm sure that my strategies would have been better with krav. sticking to someone--like Richie says, hitting places that
bring more instantanious results, being a wee bit thuggish (which has a pschologica side of it that has benefits). i've just simply known too many
people sports-combat trained that have suffered an emotional scar from taking a beating after years of training that previously had brought them
some sense of confidence/pride/whatever. i liken it to falsely building up
a person's confidence, so that one knows just enough to get them into more trouble. that isn't to say that people like Adam haven't pulled this off and excelled, only that others i've known haven't. in fairness i've know tae kwon do practitioners (two) that have been able to make the adjustment, but they grew up tough and fighting and i can't help but wonder how much of that it had to do with. if you are a person that hasn't really had to deal with that, i feel (respectfully saying this, not in a dogmatic way, but in an 'in all likelyhood as it reflects what i've seen' kind of way) that you'd be more suited to something that makes up for those kinds of exposures you haven't been introduced to. you need the agro, the surprizing bursts of 'offensive' style speed. all that is critical if you have defense on the brain at all.

if you grew up sort of fighting, and kind of knowing what is required, and how you'd have to tweek the targets (not stomach...groin, etc), then i'd have to say that it probably is okay to work on that sort of defense stuff on your own. but the stakes are just too damn high to leave too much up to guess work.

that's my humble opinion.

oh no Russell, I'm not saying combat sports training made me ready for the street, it just made the street training easier.

I used to train 4 nights a week when I was younger, twice in kickboxing and twice in self protection. My ring style was there fore pretty straight forward. I might throw the occassional head kick, but only if it was REALLY there or if I was show boating.

I don't think anyone (other than as you say, real exceptions) can train purely in combat sports and it prepare them for the street. Training in Combat sports is good for the character, develops decent core skills and is fun (if you can put up with being punched in the face that is)

With respect to my self protection abilities
RBSD me > kickboxing me > pre-martial arts me.
and I have a long way to go still

Also, I never excelled. Just made the best of what I had.

Many thanks for the responses. This is all very helpful.

Adam - I live in South London. I've just found a site called the Tokei Centre not far from where I work which seems to do a bunch of classes at a reasonable rate including Muay Thai and Judo. I've not heard of the Beta-8 syllabus before, can you point me to a link?

Russell - Apart from playground scuffles when I was at school, I've never really had a real fight. I also think that some of the stuff I've seen/done in the past leads to a false sense of security - works well with training partners but would probably fall apart if tried under pressure with someone who doesn't know the script. I honestly think I would be better off in relying on running if someone even looks like pulling a knife (I'm a much better sprinter than fighter) and concentrating on the unarmed stuff for my training.

Interestingly, when I did TKD as a kid I never liked or looked forward to sparring. Then one time I went to see an action film before the class and was all fired up and fared much better when I sparred later on. So I guess at 14, that was my first hint that how/what you think affects how you perform but it's taken me up until now to recognise I have to view that as an important part of training like the physical stuff.

The krav has helped me get in touch with aggression and to use it and it was satisfying to know I could turn it on and make it work for me but it’s a bit hot blooded at the moment. I read something Richie wrote about developing tenacious resolve rather than blind anger so I am trying to work that out now. I ordered the psychology of violence CDs and am hoping those will help.

Bloody hell I can waffle on sometimes...

i'm late for work. but this dialogue was so good and well rounded i've
sort of become stuck on it. sounds like you all know what you're doing.
good luck with the choices.

Beta-8 is Richies Self Protection Syllabus. I have the first 3 DVDs (which I heartily recommend), we deliver, best we can, the material on them and Richie will be doing seminars for us regularly to keep us on track with it.

South London, you should have plenty of choice. be decerning.

In a way, you're not supposed to exactly 'look forward' to sparing. If it's stressful and a bit painful then it's good sparring and you don't feel good until you've finished and you know you've benefited from it.

Traceur,
you have a lot of shit hot MMA, BJJ and MT schools in South London, when I was living Bermondsey I used to get myself up to Gymbox in Holborn.
You pay a monthly fee then all the lessons there are free: boxing, muay thai, MMA (with a good coach who competes to a good level), krav maga... there is even some silat and capoeira there... they have live dj's playing some nights, the women are really hot, and if you get on their extensive bag section you can pick up casual training partners, loads of local doormen train there who will see what you are up to and want to join in

http://www.gymbox.co.uk/gymbox.swf

If you are enjoying the krav training and it seems to be doing the do for you then stick with it.

All my favourite top instructors have a good solid base in sport combat... SP instructors are constantly trying to distill in order to meet the objectives of RBSD: devastating strikes, gross motor movements, learn in one hour etc, etc, etc,etc
And in doing so I think often miss a massive piece of their own puzzle that is filled by sport combat/MMA type training

Damian Ross wrote a really good article about the RBSD and MMA thing that was emailed to his mailing list the other day... anyone else get it?

It’s exactly the missing piece that I have been thinking about.

It’s a bit like these American ninjas who slavishly copy how Hatsumi moves in the Bujinkan. Well that guy is in his 80’s or something but when he was young he did lots of conditioning, sparred hard, punched makiwaras etc. They don’t do any of that stuff anymore but surely if you want a piece of what he has now, you have to do the hard stuff he did back then or else it’s a bit hollow (self-delusory?)

In the same way I wonder if you want to get capable in terms of self protection, are you better off having some experience of MT, judo or whatever first so you have a base, support system/delivery system etc and experience of non-compliant training.

Between work and life, I can only really make it to classes a couple of nights a week so I am trying to figure out how best to invest my time – ie do I stick with the krav exclusively or mix it up with some combat sports or just do the combat sports for a while. I’d definitely say a lot of the guys that seem like they have better odds of making the krav work tend to have a background in something (usually MT.)

That Gymbox place looks pretty sweet – they even have a parkour class now and they have Muay Thai (Boran?). I’ve also found a place near London Bridge called the Tokei Centre which offers a lot of classes (including MT and judo). Has anyone had experience of training there?

http://www.tokeicentre.org/index.shtml

Traceur, I was going to say, you name yourself after a practioner of Parkour, yet seem to tie it in sparsely to your training information.

No problem - here's some more info on that.

I saw David Belle running across London's buildings on the BBC a few years ago and thought I'd always wanted to do something like that - it's the superhero/Jackie Chan wannabe inside me - lol.

I went to one of Urbanfreeflow's PK days (as they were called then) and met a lot of the guys and did some training. There was a very relaxed and welcoming vibe to it all with people happy to share tricks and techniques.

After a while, I started going to the area at the back of Shell Centre by Waterloo on Sunday's mornings. It's closed off now for renovation but a few years ago there would always be anything from 10 to 40 traceurs working on their stuff as the place had loads of rails, walls, obstacles to train on.

Funny thing was, the 2 or 3 guys I got to go with me were all in their late 20's/early 30's whereas most of the kids who showed us stuff were in their mid-teens.

A lot of it is mental. If you have a basic level of fitness, your body can do the move but you overthink it - what if I slip, what if I clip the rail with my toes etc... When you land a new move it's a big rush. In more practical terms, it can't hurt if you are able to get over an obstacle with a running vault or get up and over a 10 foot wall. Don't worry about all the acrobatic stuff, that's just the grandstanding side of it - freerunning. "Pure" parkour is about getting from A to B as fluidly as possible so flips and aerials don't really come into it.

Most of it is trained at ground level too. All the big roof jumps are for the movies/media where location scouts and health and safety experts scope out the sites, put protection in place etc.

I'm by no means an expert but am happy to answer any questions on this.

Im back in the London area for a week if you want to meet up Traceur

or anyone for that matter