Earlier tonight...my girlfriend Vs Knife

Quote :

I agree wholeheartedly with what Blakops said, and these little buggers flourish when people do nothing. Appathy is the enemy, indeed it's how we've got to this point in society.

word

An example from the Uk in support of D.M.B. post

It would seem that legally you have to make a move just before or during the act. Why pre-emption has become such a favoured tactic, (other than the obvious :-) ) I suppose, could almost be said to put you in a better position legally, than restraining them afterwards.

What a muddled society we have created.

I have a duty solicitor who attends my class, I will ask him what he thinks.

Though yes, another reason why going after them in the manner you described, Sharif, may not be a sensible option.


Concerning what Roadkill asked, I am currently reading Land fit for Criminals by David Fraser, a former UK Probation Officer in London & a former Criminal Intelligence Analyst with the National Criminal Intelligence Service.

If the stats he is using are true then from the early 50's to 2005, the situation is getting much, much worse.

Blakops wrote:

An example from the Uk in support of D.M.B. post

Words fail me with regards to the quotes from the former Police Commander at the bottom of the page.

With regards to reporting it, may I add that my girlfriend was nearly dragged into an alley when she walked home from the pub, about two years ago. Her friends didn't stop for her (No comment) and she sort of pushed the guy away and caught up with them after he'd groped her.

I asked around the day after (I actually made a scene in a full restaurant where I suspected her attacker might work), but didn't go to the police to make a statement.
I still wish that I had, so possibly try thinking how you will feel about this in a year or so Sharif. If you'll feel the same then don't bother making a statement because you know right now exactly how you'll feel really. If i'd had a think I would have gone in just to get it off my chest and try and nail a conviction on somebody if the event occurred again to another girl. But we live in very different places in the UK.

Here's the thing.

From a police officers perspective... things could look very different upon arriving at the scene where Sharif has just rendered three street punks unconscious.

Sharif says "this one pulled a knife on my girl an hour ago, so i came here to make a citizen's arrest and had to subdue all three..."

Police office asks the three punks, "is this true?"

Punk's response *moaning in pain sound* "no i didn...."

Now the cops always need evidence to charge someone, and here, the only evidence of anything having happened are the injuries to the three little street rat's and Sharif's confession. It'll all go into a report handed over to a prosecutor who is likely more interested in conviction rate than the truth, and it's a slam dunk assualt charge times three on Sharif.

The truth doesn't matter so much as what is provable in court.


What's the solution?

Well we've apparently got to catch scum lke this in the act, at the moment, to have any legal ground to stand on. Catching up to them after the fact simply will not do. The only way I can think that this works in this case is if they are baited, and that's not something I'd want to see happen as that can go horribly wrong.

ok guys time for me to get my moderator head on

*moderator mode on*

Quote :

Well we've apparently got to catch scum lke this in the act, at the moment, to have any legal ground to stand on. Catching up to them after the fact simply will not do.

woah! thats not true

careful of the thread drift here

yes, things arent great, but not contacting the police about an incident about two clearly identifiable youths "twins with big afros" (afros are not exactly common right now in London) is just apathy and I might add irresponsible- you dont know, they could be in care, they could be known to the police already, you just dont know, it MIGHT have an effect

one phone call? not even a phone call? hard to justify not picking up that phone and dialling the number.... its a freephone number....




sorry but thats my personal view

my professional stance is that I recommend that people always work with the police, to assist them in doing their job

not doing it for them



which leads me to the article blakops posted

in which a man and his son, picked up a "child" put him in thier car and drove him to another location a day after a very minor incident took place - your BLOODY right they should be charged with kidnapping for fucks sake!!!

you want to live in a country where its legal for joe public (most of whom are, lets face it, not the birghtest)
to pick children up off the street, drive them to another location and interrogate them???

oh hell no

Now, the CPS was right to throw it out as there clearly wasnt any malicious intent it was just "unwise" as the judge said, and its a shame it took 6 months to come to that decision, but should he have been charged with kidnapping?

Abso- fuckin-lutely.

Come on guys, what do we know about being picked up and taken to another location?
Its usually a recipe for rape, murder or worse.

No way should people be picking kids up or holding them against their will.

Blakops said

Quote :

It would seem that legally you have to make a move just before or during the act. Why pre-emption has become such a favoured tactic, (other than the obvious :-) ) I suppose, could almost be said to put you in a better position legally, than restraining them afterwards.

No, legally you DONT have to make a move just before or during the act, as I said to DMB. That just isnt true and the story does NOT illustrate that as a point.

How are you going to preempt a kid from "spitting" in your chip shop? Realistically?

What does "restraining them afterwards" mean? Physically restraining them? A day later? A week later?

You can see how this could go south very very quickly.

Bottom line is the public cannot be trusted to make these decisions.


Mike2010,

John O'Connor's comments leave you speechless? In what way?

Quote :

The CPS is trying to send a message that this is not to be undertaken lightly

John O'Connor
Former Flying Squad commander
"We have often seen cases that do get prosecuted, where somebody, and usually it is a youngster, is taken from where he's arrested back to a premises where there's some form of interrogation or argy bargy that goes on that could be construed as him being held under duress."

Taking someone to another premises against their will = kidnapping

in this country kidnapping can get you life

you might want to think long and hard about why the lawmakers have made this particular offense carry such a heavy sentence


*moderator mode off*


you lot,

stop

a. whinging

b. talking bollocks


You want to criticise current police protocol and UK law, fine... please do present us with your alternative view of how things "should be done properly" - I personally will find it fascinatin reading

apres vous mesdames et messieurs

Heya Richie,

I agree completely that a report, phone call, what have you, should be made (I didn't know if you could phone it in when I suggested it), I was just trying to illustrate how rigid the criteria is in place for making a citizen's arrest. I definitely think the police should be the ones doing the arresting, and indeed that's why the criteria is so strict.

I actually do think the laws are just fine. The reason they seem to be a problem to us in Sharif's example/case is that citizen's are taking the law into their own hands mainly due to a lack of response by the police. That's the thing that needs to change. The laws would work if they were backed up by a responsive police force that people could have some confidence in.

@DMB

sure

but in Sharifs case, he didnt phone the police, so they definitely arent going to be able to do anything now are they?

this attitude feeds rather than solves the problem, do you see what I mean?


@everyone else

I also have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about people sitting around swapping stories about how shit the police are- I used to hear it on the door all the time from whingey doormen, everyone knows a lad who knows a lad, who caught a burglar sexually molesting his dog at 4 am and threw him out and then the dog rapist sues for psychological damages caused by being disturbed during his happy time left him emotionally traumatised... and wins.

Its bullshit and urban myths.

The consequence?

These doormen often had a surly, mistrustful and derisive attitude towards the police. They wouldnt work with them because after all, they were just "c@nts".

If you treat the police like this, they will respond like this.

So guess what? They were more likely to get nicked (ha ha!) AND the police were less likely to help them (quelle fackin surprise!)

Its a two way street, they are police not the X-men!

I was on a door once with a great team, some ex coppers, ex army, some were working as firemen, a couple as probation officers and a couple of prison guards. Over time, the relationship we developed with the po po was very strong. Im not goin to tell stories, all I can tell you is, for the effort of a warm attitude, some cups of coffee and some long chats it was WELL worth the effort.

My point is not to offend or upset any of you.

but LET ME BE BLUNT : this attitude, this belief set you are buying into and strengthening, the apathy, the mistrust?

It makes the situation worse... for YOU!

Learn a bit about police procedure, use your social intelligence, be skilfull in your communication with the police and you might find you get more of the results you do want from them.

so

to be clear

on the one hand: Im trying to make a helpful suggestion for all youze benefits(ez - scouse, plural)

on the other: I want to stop people whinging and/ ar from stating opinion about how the law works as fact - which is dishonest and dangerous, so PLEASE nobody do it



guys,

seriously

this forum is getting harder and harder to manage at the moment and I dont really have the time

it seems like every 3 to 4 days Im telling people to stop doing things or banning them

please, please use your heads

this whole concept is a fucking time bomb waiting to go off in MY face

not in your faces in mine

use your fucking heads please its a public forum

at the moment, its looking like if things dont calm down I will have to lock it (again) - I just havent got the time to moderate it right now


in fact

I think we better stop it for now until I get more time