Compliance Issues in Training

what do you guys and gals make of this?



always been interested in Silat myself since training with Chris Parker, and hopefully going to Malaysia soon to give it a go in its homeland

You seem to be taking the opposite route that I did I came out of south-east asian martial arts and found the much more humble and realistic world of SP. But it seems that after totally diving into (and probably 'matering') the [kind of] boring and straight-forward world of SP, you are now maybe looking for some cool stuff?

I'd say that some of the Filipino MA/Silat (they're pretty similar) is definitely good, applicable stuff. But if you stay true to the goal of only training/teaching the nuts and bolts, works-pretty-much-every-time, doesn't-take-10-years-to-learn concept, you'll find that 90% of the south east asian stuff goes (regrettably) in the bin. It's hard to do, for various reasons (it looks cool, the drills are fun, you feel like Jason Bourne, and it feels like a waste after spending two whole frikkin months learning it in-country ). But the reason I've put most of my silaty/slappy/trappy/joint locky/limb desctruction stuff to bed is because, like you, I made that decision to stay true to what works and what is easiest to give to the untrained student without enrolling them into years of 'system' training.

One of my instructors (who has been a huge influence on my training) has tried VERY hard to find the happy medium between hardcore military combatives and south east asian style martial arts. And he's done a pretty good job. But in my humble opinion, I think HE could make that stuff work because he has just totally ingrained it into his muscle memory. I mean this guy has TRAINED TRAINED AND TRAINED some more to make it work (for him). The question is, can we expect that type of obsessive goal-driven training from our students. At the end of the day, you could make any traditional art that you had a particular liking for 'work' if you combined it with standard SP and trained, trained. trained to make it work for you.

I tell you what though, I do miss it. How about next time I'm up in Liverpool we get together and exchange some ideas? Maybe we could dissect the silat-y stuff, test it a bit and see if we can sift through the esoteric-ness to find some gold amongst the rubble? There are a handful of techniques which are fun to do/train and I reckon they can be made to work pretty easily (and they look cool!)

the real silat for the bodyguards of the sultan, is not tought for everybody, its called batang sumpitang.

and its like the techniques explode out of nowhere without knowing.

the key for this natural movements comes from stupid movements, and wing chun like contact training.

eye focus trainings, and balance, and reflex training with a simple stick, and loaden balls. glasses of water, and breathing.

richie, i think from the normal kampong silat you are not so impressed,

for the knife part its nice to go to Aceh

i have had the opportunity to practice this movements when i was 16 to my early 20ts till my teacher died.
after he died i took different schools and ma training.

but on the street i allways explode in the way of basupi, and for me it has proven itself, and also for my students who have served in the military and work as doorman.
the training is very boring in the beginning, to filter the guys who really want learn the reflexes.
after one year the training becomes more interesting, but everytime you start to like it, you have to do boring things again, over and over and over again.

but silat can be very very effective on the street.

but not how this guy is trying to sell the silat

Sharif Haque (Tacpro) wrote:

I tell you what though, I do miss it. How about next time I'm up in Liverpool we get together and exchange some ideas? Maybe we could dissect the silat-y stuff, test it a bit and see if we can sift through the esoteric-ness to find some gold amongst the rubble? There are a handful of techniques which are fun to do/train and I reckon they can be made to work pretty easily (and they look cool!)

ah hahahaha!

Sharif

Im not looking for anything laaa, cynical Richie posted the clip to make his own points and teach his own lessons

I've done the "Silat gold sifting" thing a looooong time ago ... and the wing chun and the tai chi and the boxing and karate etc etc "gold sifting" and I can tell you my friend, and I mean this with humility and respect for all practitioners whatever their objectives may be :

its a TOTALLY redundant exercise that will only disrespect these "Arts" and drive the seeker crazy.

Well, its not totally redundant... if by doing it it teaches you what a monumentally redundant thing to be doing with your time it is!

If you want specific answers you must ask specific questions.


But certainly if you in Liverpool before October the 24th then let me know it would be great to get together

before I take Streetfightsecrets travelling to the East


Interesting points Chulo, if I sincerely wanted to pursue Silat as a style I would have done by now

I will be in Malaysia soon and will see what kind of Silat instructors I can find whilst I am there, I have been warned that there is a limit to what they will teach to non muslims though

two arms, two legs, one head

styles vary greatly

humans vary slightly

ha! that would make a great sig.

my initial post might have made it sound like I just trained with Chris Parker last week - I first trained with him when I was 18... Im now... older than 18


resisting the temptation to project too much, just watch the video clip or bits of it at random and tell me what you think- I'd be interested to hear your thoughts about the video clip I posted in the first post of the thread

not particulalrly interested in peoples thoughts in Silat in general right now, just look at this as a Silat / Combative cross over video and give me your initial reaction

did somebody say if you want specific answers you need to ask specific questions?

doh!

*bites*

My opinion of this video in short...

Silat/FMA shaped peg, indeterminate SP shaped hole.

I dont know about the rest of you, but i feel like mr. Janich has been trawling youtube for some SP flavouring so he can repackage his usual product and sell it again.

First Impressions: Well, I liked the name “Damithurts”, I wish I had thought of that. The very first defense clip of him in a warehouse… not bad, forward motion, elbows and stomp the ankle on the way out. At 3:49 he did a neat little wrap and trap I’ll have to play with, just because it looked cool. At 5:00 he goes into what we call trapping or brush trap drills. Which I think are good coordination drills but for the street it shouldn’t be 1-2 it should be one.

Overall it’s professionally made and I’ve seen much worse content.

yeah , its true styles are maby nonsense because we all have two arms and legs.
but its proven that a style/ art closer to the source is more effective. we see that in blue belt rickson gracie jiujitsu kas vs gracie barra blue belts. the rickson gracie students do much better.

its for a blue belt bjj impossible to win from a black belt rickson gracie jiujitsu.
but its happenend a rickson gracie blue belt win from a black belt gracie barra

i heard many people say, its not the style, but the person.

i dont agree on that.

some styles are way more effective than others.

(in my opinion)

not to sound wise, but in my opinion this guy is a joke.

Flat out impression of the video; it looks weak. Like AndyF said, it looks like a square peg attempted to be put through a round hole. The attackers seems half-assed.

Michael Janich as far as I know started out as a knife guy. With RBSD re-focused Filipino stuff. A critique I've heard about him is that he is way too based on that range. I've never seen anything but his previews but all that he seems to do are those hubud drills. with the knife, against the knife, with improvised weapons and now empty hand. Great with consistency like that but this might be more an expression of limits than being systematic.

I hear good things about him quite a lot though, from people who should be able to discern. But I don't trust people like that. Maybe he is just a likeable guy.

___

Now, after inserting a small line of order to separate stuff. Chulo and the styles stuff:

Is one style more effective than another?

I'd say yes. And that it depends. Plus that the fighter himself matters. But back to styles specifically. What the hell is a "style" anyway?

One guy or group's solution to some tactical problems they were faced with, right there at that time. In the crudest sense, that's what it seems to come down to.

Different people were faced with different problems, had other resources to work with, so we have all these different styles. Fair enough, makes sense and all, but I've heard that in China alone there was something like 11000 (yes, eleven thousand) styles! What the fuck?

So if we imagine a group of guys trying to figure out the best way to handle just pure basic untrained animal violence, that might work well for us today as well. Simple stuff. But then let's say these guys make enemies with the neighbouring village. And those guys sit down and figure out the best way to defeat the group we first talked about. A style designed to handle another style. That style might suck against the old simple violence.

And that cycle might go on throughout many groups. A lot of that stuff is probably a large part of things we see today in traditional martial arts that just doesn't make sense. Odd old ends of responses against things that doesn't exist anymore.

But there might have been further refinements and developments on things like the first hypotnethical group's style. "how to defeat thugs". After just playing around with some conceptual filters such as weapons, size/strength advantage, multiples, space and time shortages, some of the stuff left that might still survive begins to look sort of like (very) old school jiu jitsu, from what little I know of it.

And if you've seen the Dog Brothers Kali Tudo stuff, there is also the question of whether people are training the stuff like it is supposed to be trained. The style and the drills and katas being more of a recording system than something to actually be practiced as is. I'm running out of time though. So I've got to run.

I agree with a lot of Sharif's (apparently wasted typage!) But remember team, as long as Ritchie's entertained ....

Also, I thought matey looked like he'd never hit a pad before, let alone a person. But some of his strategy seemed a sensible use of bog standard Kali/Silat stuff.

From what I've heard, some of these 'masters' in far off places are just hard-cases who've won a hundred 'death matches' using the same move that works for them. Not sure how much you take away. Seems reasonable that Dan Inosanto has learned from the best of them all (because of who he is) and applied himself for a few years to each before extracting what he wants. Someone like Rick Young in Scotland, who's fairly hardcore - boxed and Judo'd competitively - absorbed all he could from Dan, would probably have more to offer than going to Malaysia. Still, to contradict myself, there's something to be said from learning from a source - I see that in the people who've trained in Muay Thai in Thailand.

Funny how much you sense is in the individual - regardless of their moves which could be awful - you either see *it* or not in their eyes and body language just in a drill whether they'd hack it in a fight. Sometimes I think it's almost an inverse relationship.

I need to lie down.

still believe some of the best fighters of the world, are the ones we dont know about

Mmmmm…
The thread had me ask a specific question ( i'm learning... )
"where do we get our basics from ? "

I mean : we all agree that a lot of the TKM styles do not prepare you for the real thing, but what about those attributes that on them you can build …
Things like balance, mobility , fluidity , range etc..

Richie's stuff had made a huge impact on me , but if I was an absolute beginner , where could I get the foundations needed. Richie I haven't seen all your stuff and regrettably haven't had the Privilege to be a student of yours
( but if you will have the time, I started to save money for a 10 days of "vacation" outside my somewhat crazy land and what more vacation then having a few sessions with you….mmm Yes I think you're that good… )

so I don’t know if you're taking certain MA knowledge for granted before a person start's digging in….
Maybe we take for granted certain methods of training that do not relate DIRECTLY to the streets but through them we achieve street related qualities.
I'm in the middle of trying to clarify for myself what foundations are a MUST and what is the best way to achieve it.
Just an example: sticky hands for me was and still a great tool for achieving different goals. Certain FMA training methods that will not work in the street but thought me so much etc. I think thou that you MUST know the difference between the different goals of each thing you do in training .
the problem is that some teachers sell there teachings as street related without making the difference. an sd student must know which tools to use where and for which goals.

saying that here is another question for you guys : if you had 10 years to train someone from the beginning, this fantasy studant will never complain and money was not the issue, he was in an island so he will not have a chance to streetfight throughout those years and the goal is SD....you get the point ...what and if would change in the way you would have trained him... i'm asking this because for me MA is here to stay and i think that saying a technique would take a long time to absorb is not necessarily a reason not to train in it, providing you have an honest and Knowledgeable teacher that would know the difference between a technique that will work after a long time and the ones who will not in relation to motor skills in a stress situation etc.

sorry for the double feature , it's not a megalomanic thing i assure you

Bing_bang wrote:

I agree with a lot of Sharif's (apparently wasted typage!) But remember team, as long as Ritchie's entertained ....

Tell me about it

Sharif Haque (Tacpro) wrote:

Bing_bang wrote:

I agree with a lot of Sharif's (apparently wasted typage!) But remember team, as long as Ritchie's entertained ....

Tell me about it

PFFFT! looks like my bloody responsive counter "typage" was wasted, harrumph...

many good points

bing bang

Quote :

Funny how much you sense is in the individual - regardless of their moves which could be awful - you either see *it* or not in their eyes and body language just in a drill whether they'd hack it in a fight. Sometimes I think it's almost an inverse relationship.

I rate my intuition and instinct on determining peoples ability in this highly non scientific subjective way- it might be a dreadful way of doing things, but Im seldom wrong

people Ive tagged initially as basically nerds or blowhards or showoffs or bullshitters or genuinely sincere martial artists have seldom failed to dissapoint over time and with exposure to them personally

chulo
I agree, the best fighters are unknown- how are you goin to be a good fighter and be uploading videos on youtube and running a marketing campaign? the lifestyles just dont mix

nironi

Quote :

if you had 10 years to train someone from the beginning, this fantasy studant will never complain and money was not the issue, he was in an island so he will not have a chance to streetfight throughout those years and the goal is SD....you get the point ...what and if would change in the way you would have trained him... i'm asking this because for me MA is here to stay and i think that saying a technique would take a long time to absorb is not necessarily a reason not to train in it, providing you have an honest and Knowledgeable teacher that would know the difference between a technique that will work after a long time and the ones who will not in relation to motor skills in a stress situation etc.

a bloody good question and a bloody good point... when will street /combatives/ SP/ rbsd let go of the "must be learnable in 3 days" mindset?

we arent training spec ops operatives a few neck chopping techniques before they go on ops anymore - the old fairbarn ww2 paradigm is useful for filtering extrnaeous techniques, but can become its own trap/limitation

When I was studying eskrima, we did some Panantukan, Pangamot, Dumog and Silat.There are individual good moves that can be used, but if your intrest is pure self defence,there is much better.I remember sometimes I would get frustrated with some of the fancy long winded stuff, and I would just put my hand in the "attackers" face and swish it around a bit, worked much better that alot of stuff we were learning, but as I said there is some individual techniques which can be of service.

Bing_bang wrote:

From what I've heard, some of these 'masters' in far off places are just hard-cases who've won a hundred 'death matches' using the same move that works for them. Not sure how much you take away.
Funny how much you sense is in the individual - regardless of their moves which could be awful - you either see *it* or not in their eyes and body language just in a drill whether they'd hack it in a fight. .

i like this point, i'm watching the clip again, but i must say that the above sentiment sort of speaks to
me on most things. in truth, all i know of silat is that is spelled 'talis' backwards .
i'm usually--admittedly, only looking for things i can relate to by way of forward drive and viciousness.
the best fighters i've witnessed were decisive, fast, and simplistic in the exocution of strikes.
i even knew a [shudder] tkd guy who exemplified this on the street.

richie wrote:

I agree, the best fighters are unknown- how are you goin to be a good fighter and be uploading videos on youtube and running a marketing campaign? the lifestyles just dont mix

dont saying there are no good fighters who indeed upload movies!! haha, only saying there are some really good fighters who dont need/ can take / the camera, or feel uncomfertable of people seeing their way of fighting, because they expose their self for to many people.

chulodog wrote:

richie wrote:

I agree, the best fighters are unknown- how are you goin to be a good fighter and be uploading videos on youtube and running a marketing campaign? the lifestyles just dont mix

dont saying there are no good fighters who indeed upload movies!! haha, only saying there are some really good fighters who dont need/ can take / the camera, or feel uncomfertable of people seeing their way of fighting, because they expose their self for to many people.

all i know is that for everyone i ever met in a tournament, dojo, on the street, etc...i seem to run into good fighters everywhere with regularity. the size and strength of the average athletic male is daunting, it has to boil down to things like being completely uninhibited [fearless--or fear-not-inhibiting], fast, decisive, and sticking--sticking--sticking. every year i teach this class, and every year i meet at least one lad who's got the same potential as anyone i've ever trained with who's done well for themselves.

in some ways, it's liberating--because it makes one not presume they're somehow supposed to be able to work magic whilst fighting. everyone a potential threat. really makes one stay honest and on their game. the last field that not all tackle is the realm of the mind-fook. look at iron mike [sports i know but how else will i demonstrate the point unless we all share the same street observation experience]. on his game whilst agressive, fast, unassuming, and sticking. shite once becoming overconfident, slower [as if picking shots], etc...to buster douglass--i think that was his name. i always assume that none of this stuff is magic and waiting around every corner is the one that can and will knock you out the moment you become egotistical and complaicent.

whether it's silat, kali-something-or-other, kung-fu, tkd, LSD, cornflake-ryu, hop-skip-and-a-jump-kido.
i rarely make the unforgivable assumption that a tai chi guy can't go through me like butter, and i should only be wary of the boxers, etc... one of my students has NO training what-so-ever, but has the street name of pit for his tenacity [british leanings of the word]. it's the only skill he's got, and not because he's the sharpest tool in the box...he switches on and has great difficulty switching off. in his world he as carved himself quite a little thuggish path for himself just being athletic and 'nuts', no other way of saying it. i've trained him, there are NO skills to speak of. these daily wake-ups afford me a big picture that i don't dare let go of, lest i desire to wake up staring at white coats and lights and wondering how i got there

AndyF wrote:

*bites*

My opinion of this video in short...

Silat/FMA shaped peg, indeterminate SP shaped hole.

I dont know about the rest of you, but i feel like mr. Janich has been trawling youtube for some SP flavouring so he can repackage his usual product and sell it again.

silat shaped peg, Sp shaped hole! excellent

chulo and russ, accept your points, but the lads who i know who i would consider to be regular scrappers (my interpretation of "good fighter") wont even so much as look at a martial arts forum, let alone post there, let alone shoot videos of themselves! I know plenty of guys who are stronger, more skilled more experienced than me... but they cant teach for shit and they would be the first to admit it

OK, so

on the video clip from 5.19 to 6.19

what are you seeing? I know it seems like Im picking on silat/s.e. asian styles, Im really not... there is something there that I AM pickin up up that you see in lots of martial arts training...

what do you see or rather, what do you NOT see between those points?

What is missing between 5:19 and 6:19?

I can not see aliveness.

Perhaps forgivable to an extent due to the nature of the drill, but then that kind of drill should not be the meat of one's training.

It is a drill that isolates a small reflexive movement pattern. A big one in kali and silat but a small one nonetheless. What the hell are top notch racing tires good for if you don't have a car to put them on in the first place?

What is missing between 5:19 and 6:19?

I see the standard TMA mentality of "I'll throw this one strike (which I'll aim a little bit off/short of your face, just in case I do actually hit you) and then you do your stuff while I stay frozen in this position because I reckon that in reality your block would actually make my whole body freeze up"

Which leads to...

"Oh my god, this technique is great! Look, I can break this, hyper-extend that, smash that... I am now officially a ninja"

They're also standing on the spot, very upright. Arms are moving, but the legs are almost stuck to the floor.

Ultimately what's missing is aggression, non-compliance and as RichardB says, Aliveness.

You could maybe justify this by saying it's a drill... but I don't think it's all drills. I think what they're doing in some parts are more 'scenarios'. Which should have an element of non compliance.

Are we missing anything Richie G?

Quote :

"I'll throw this one strike (which I'll aim a little bit off/short of your face, just in case I do actually hit you) and then you do your stuff while I stay frozen in this position because I reckon that in reality your block would actually make my whole body freeze up"

made me smile, compliance goes beyond "letting your partner do things to you" which is a dangerous but necessary evil to "I will feed you crappy weak attacks that put no pressure on you and make you look and feel good AND I will let you do what you want to me after you've dealt with my slightly off shot"

"Aliveness", as RB says is an interesting concept-

(is it sort of trademarked to the Straight Blast Gym? anyone know? certainly the concept itself obviously cant be, but always good to give credit where possible where it is due)

I was thinking "Roughness" - so maybe you can move compliantly (I tend to think of "aliveness" as semi sparring, becuase that seems to be how the SBG guys use it) but move with a degree of violent intent and violent movement, on both sides.

I believe that would cover the upright stance, sticky feet Sharif mentioned- if you were moving with compliance but deliberately being more vigourous, you would be knocking each other off balance, necessitating foot movemnt and dropped hips, deeper stance and a curved spine.

I appreciate its a drill- but drills are there to develop attributes and this one looks like they are working techniques/ applications in the same way they do the drill

Im not picking on these guys in particular at all, Ive seen this done loads, I just happened across this clip and really that was the main thrust of putting it on the forum, with a few questions:

- do you think THEY know whether they are drilling attributes or applications? or do you think people who "drill" like this are just following orders from how their teacher taught them?

- how can we take this type of drill as a base and develop it into being something more combatively relevant, more able to prepare the practitoner for real world violence?

over to you ...

I learned from a great deal my eskrima teacher, one of the biggest things was his attitude about drills. Over his years of teaching he changed his format from something pretty traditional, to basically dumping most of it. His view was that drills like these, and the many you see throughout martial training, Filipino, Malay whatever, actually slow down a student's progress, because though you are training some body co ordination and reflexes, there is no context. There is no 'when'? and 'why is this happening'? apparent. He felt that a quicker path was to train valid reactions to real threat, and not just counters to patterns. He also felt that the much bigger questions to answer came before the part where you have your opponent in just the right place to do a nice throw or whatever. He would say "That's just technical" I.e. that's the cake.
He felt it was bad to build in reactions to zero threat, he wanted you to perceive threat and act appropriately in every interaction - at least that was the goal. For that, you need 'real threat' to practice with, in whatever type it comes.
Not that this cannot be compliant to the extent it can be obvious angles, not full power etc for training, but it cannot be mindless. Both partners in an exercise have to 'play their parts' authentically or you are just 'doing' for no real reason.
Steve Morris has an interesting blog about the role of the pad holder - http://stevemorris.livejournal.com/ and how the best guys in Thailand almost fight with the student, and the pads make it possible for the student to hit back full power without injuring their partner. Thing is, of course, the pad holder needs to know how to fight to do this realistically, so they are building good attributes in the student. Playing eskrima with Sonny was like doing very high level pad work with an experienced fighter - building in appropriate reactions to real threats.

All this is a long way around to saying that I don't believe the guys in the video have ever used the techniques for real and are just doing what their teachers told them ...as will their students after them unless they really fight. That's not to say there is no validity in the ideas, it's just the context is missing, and there will be no cake unless you have trained that.