Is direct exposure to confrontation necessary in order to become skilled at it? Poll

I think if you spend enough time in confrontational situations you become an "expert" through exposure to the signs...

But can you develop these instuitive skills without exposure I wonder?

I don't think you need to be in regular confrontational situations to be prepared, although obviously it helps. I'm reading No Doubt No Fear at the minute and Bob discusses confrontation just being a form of communication. Their must be ways of preparing for this form of communication without putting yourself in the firing line intentionally.

I play a lot of poker. I used to do it for a living in fact. There are huge overlaps between how people behave in confrontations over the green baize and in fighting situations. Much of the same posturing and giving off signals is there. The analogy might then be, it's possible to get a decent understanding of the game by studying and watching a lot of poker on TV. Depending on your personality you may be able to transfer that knowledge to a real game, or you may go to peices when the cards are actually in the air. Some people play live poker for years and while they don't get nervous and probably win a few quid from time to time, they're actually technically shocking players. On the other hand, some manage to play excellent poker with relatively little experience because their intelligence and confidence is high.

Intelligent, confident players with a lot of table time will always have the best game though.

I would vote yes, we are born with a survival instinct, or the instinct to nurture etc so I feel that it maybe in all of us without training it or exposure to it!
If you train regularly then there has to come a point when you go out there and start battering the shit out of those whom clearly deserve it. However I don't really read this sort of thing on forums, its quite the reverse, mainly people whining about why they didn't hit an agressor, and then there is a flurry of supporting souls fawning over whom ever is posting their tale of woe. So it makes me ask myself how valid is the majority of training and what is it doing to your instinct .I've seen some very advanced pad stuff, but it is just pads that you are hitting. I think you may have posted something along the line of this Richie that some instructors build a reliance on themselves into their students, so that the students will return to them and keep their bank balance tidy. So it could be that they work against our natural instinct if thats possible, although I know that i'm speculating. Its a fair comment that other people may not like what I'm saying, but the facts are when its time to protect yourself go with your instinct and become a f@&king rat, forget the implications and wade in, you might actually enjoy it! There is nothing more satisfying than the look of shock on an agressors face when you've banged him one in front of his two mates! I think you need to get in touch with the part of your personality that will happily sit inside for 7 years for murdering who ever assailed you if that is what is required! I feel that this a facet of anyones personality, it is already there you just have to access it!

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However I don't really read this sort of thing on forums, its quite the reverse, mainly people whining about why they didn't hit an agressor, and then there is a flurry of supporting souls fawning over whom ever is posting their tale of woe.

Hahahaha! yeah the thing is, there arent that many proper headbangers who are actually doing the do who will use internet forums, Ive tried to get my mates from the door involved with the forum but they cant be arsed.

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Intelligent, confident players with a lot of table time will always have the best game though.

Nice analogy Adam... or is it a metaphor?

I believe one needs a combination of the two. My reasoning is that while role playing is effective, there is still a safety net for the participants. No matter how aggressive one gets in role playing, consciously or sub-consciously, the participants still have the knowledge that at the end of day they will not get hurt or killed...

In my opinion, regularly experiencing confrontation is the best way to learn the signs. Studying them is not the same. For example it would be all good reading out of a book, looking at the different signs you would need to look out for, but then when it comes to an actual situation, you have fear, intimidation, being nervous, your adrenaline rush and other things you have to deal with, and it is a lot harder to see the signs when your in one or more of these states.

When looking at the signs when not in a confrontational situation, you know your safe, you can study all you want and nothing will happen to you, but then when it comes to a situation it's different, you know you could get your head kicked in if you make a wrong move, you will most likely get an adrenal rush and depending on how you react to that, it can make it harder to think and may make you panic.

This is just my opinion anyway, just thought it was worth putting down.

I think a distinction needs to be made between good and bad training. Although I did concede in my analogous metaphor (or metaphorical analogy) that regular experience is an advantage, effective training can still prepare you. Obviously poor training will do nothing to help when it kicks off.

In my club we have a police officer and a couple of former doormen who've since gone into the prison service. Obviously these guys are getting the regular experience. I work in a totally non confrontational occupation. I can hardly go out of my way to put myself in confrontational situations in order to gain experience. As it happens I've had plenty of situations in my past where I've been put to the test, but If I have an 18 year old student who is not interested in working as a doorman, security guard, policeman or prison officer, I can hardly advise him to go out and get himself into a few fights.

We have to drill the hard tools, construct situational training and prepare the best we can.

Some very good points gents, keep em coming...

i would tend to sway towards the need for real life experience as it has a stronger imprint into your unconscious (because of the actual danger present)... but Im open to being convinced otherwise

The parts before a fight, signs that tell you something is wrong, the other guy is looking for trouble, depend more on intuition. Some need special practice on that as their intuitions are out of order. (excuse my poor english, you know what i mean anyhow) Others are very aware of their intuitions and are good at reading people. Im pretty sure one can learn that without being in a conflict.

When it comes to verbal confrontation i think experience (including roleplays) can be very helpful too for some people (including myself) while others just sort of have the needed abilities. I just got too emotional in the past so its more the problem that im stressed than a lack of vocabulary to "talk to opponent down". I wonder if that changed after i feel more confident with what could come after that since some time.

Then when it comes to physical conflicts / a fight at least to know what it feels like to get punched in the face or whereever helps to avoid the shock many people get, that havent had that experience before. So if your roleplays include hitting eachother i think most things can be learned. But im not so much of an expert on roleplays to know if one can go so far to get in control of the stress factor a real threat gives. And i guess real life/streetfight experience would still be helpful. But who wants to go out beat people up only for the experience? So after thinking about it i vote for the 2nd answer praying for being right. As i said somewhere else, i never got into a fight outside the ring in my life. After i have, i will let you know what was helpful and what wasnt.

i just read this. i also feel you need the exposure to confrontation. i worked as a plain-clothes store detective for years. what i didn't get was coked up louts looking to take home a war story--like bouncers. what i did get was a mixture of desperate addicts looking to sell merchandise (boosters) and career criminals looking for a slightly easier penalty if caught (in DC, the police response to shoplifters is so pathetic, i've had a police officer and a thief both arguing with me not to lock him up--it serves as a snare for those with outstanding warrants...if he doesn't have a history, chances are you'll see him again). you also get kids...i'm not counting them. the comical group are the addicts, their body language can best be described as thinking out loud. watch them and it's like getting a workshop called, "thinking of being naughty--for dummies". the career criminals are sharper, desperate to stay off of the radar--and keep their names off of the books, and need to be watched for telegraphing a desperate quick move. this is the intermediate level workshop. i call it intermediate because the bulk of them are easily spooked. if i ever wanted a ticket out, i could spook one of them just being 'looking like a store detective', instead staying on the hunt. and occasionally, the advanced class. i'd get blind sided and be forced to raise my level of response...some failures; some luck; some successes--but i gained so much that was quite street transferable. it contributed to avoiding three hold-ups from reading the signs early...can't give a better endorsement than this--to include walking a date up through the middle of traffic (changing the script for possible responses).
-rus

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can you develop these instuitive skills without exposure I wonder?

I think we are born with it. Through evolution it's naturally there within all of us. Since it's meant for survival, some people may need to go through deadly situations in order to recognise it. As for me, I feel it like a ton of bricks, especially if it's a deadly situation or life-threatening encounter. There is nothing else that feels like it and I "feel" it coming long before anything happens.

Reading the signs... Hmm....
I think the ability is inherent to a degree.

The more important issue is the inherent ability to act upon those signs, which I feel is lacking in the majority of people in everyday circumstances.

I'll go out on a limb and say that 7 people out of 10 will freeze when they get an adrenaline dump due to some kind of confrontation.

My two cents, worth 1/100th of a cent due to the devaluation of the dollar.

You need experience.

Although I think with adequate training you can prepare yourself quite well for a confrontation, as Bob and Rich point out on their DVDs, in my experience, when it happens for the first time, often you are not aware exactly what is happening, and you miss important things as you are nervous and may think, as Bob said...."OH SHIT"! The more exposure you have the more used to it you become, you begin to think, as Rich said "Here we go"! Direct exposure definitely helps build your skills and confidence.
Regards
Nick

I can only say from my experience that being involved in a real life altercation is somthing that is very hard to prepare for physically and psychologically if you havn't experienced it before. The impact of being hit violently is very shocking to the body and brain. I think you need some form of exposure to having someone agressively attack and hurt you. Hard full contact sparring would help immeasureably imo but I'm no expert on this. Ask Rich. There should be a step by step procedure for training for combat.

simple, if you dont have a real job that exposes you to confrontation each day, then you must train yourself using reality based situations and force on force techniques with attackers that are determined.....the problem with most training is that there is no force on force and they dont always use reality training.......the reality based events will help you define pre-assault cues and body language, along with mentally setting up your preemptive striking techniques

my englisch is not so good, but what i understand is.. that you asked iff you train hard, you can handle the same in a situation?

i dont think soo

i lived a few years like a criminal.. and i know new boys react different than more expierenced..

soo, first we did something easy, later more dangerous, or difficult..

what people say, is many times different what people do!

haha, big mouth many time run!

muhahah

cocktail wrote:

simple, if you dont have a real job that exposes you to confrontation each day, then you must train yourself using reality based situations and force on force techniques with attackers that are determined.....the problem with most training is that there is no force on force and they dont always use reality training.......the reality based events will help you define pre-assault cues and body language, along with mentally setting up your preemptive striking techniques

You're right that training should be as close to reality as possible, it will definitely help, but if you've never really been in serious shit before, you'll pretty much be in the dark no matter how much training you get.

Also I don't think I've ever seen (in any videos I've watched online) any properly executed reality based training. Problem is, most of the people doing the role playing have some kind of biased view on how a fight would happen in the streets, so the pre-assault cues and body language is totally off.

Anyway, the hardest thing you can never reproduce in training, is really the most important factor in a street fight. It's that "Oh shit I may not get out of this in one piece" kind of feeling that immediately will make or break you when it happens and DOES NOT depend on whether you've gotten training or not.

No matter how far into denial you want sink, if you haven't been through it before, you simply don't know if you'll go jason bourne on the guy or simply freeze up and be just another 6'3 sensei fight master just staring away into space looking like some pathetic zombie while a guy half his size walks all over him.

In the end though, it's not all or nothing. If all you can do is train then train hard and hope for the best.

Soldiers have been trained and thrown into combat many of times where none of the group have had any real experience.The training came from the knowledge of those who went before.I've been recently reading up on a former Aussie SAS soldier and how he acted and reacted on deployment in East Timor.When contact occured he had a brief,'Is this really happening' moment but then he said the training kicked in.Training,obviously, is better than no training.
But i can see the other side of the arguement,I've been working the doors for about 4yrs and your developed 'Sixth Sense' or more correct discription-"Unconcious Observation' levels do get developed rapidly when you get thrown to the lions.Which also applies to those who are exposed to combat,history books show many of times how one or two early defeats in battle help the soldiers to win the war."Experience is King' but great 'realistic' training can and sometimes does beat experience.

BXC8 wrote:

Soldiers have been trained and thrown into combat many of times where none of the group have had any real experience.The training came from the knowledge of those who went before.I've been recently reading up on a former Aussie SAS soldier and how he acted and reacted on deployment in East Timor.When contact occured he had a brief,'Is this really happening' moment but then he said the training kicked in.Training,obviously, is better than no training.
But i can see the other side of the arguement,I've been working the doors for about 4yrs and your developed 'Sixth Sense' or more correct discription-"Unconcious Observation' levels do get developed rapidly when you get thrown to the lions.Which also applies to those who are exposed to combat,history books show many of times how one or two early defeats in battle help the soldiers to win the war."Experience is King' but great 'realistic' training can and sometimes does beat experience.

Nice answer

Expanding on what BXC8 has already said, looking at soldiers and how there training is designed to prepare them for conflict, is, in my eyes a good way to look at this topic. I don’t have any military experience, but from what I have heard from serving soldiers, from watching documentaries and reading books is that the training is designed to simulate as closely as possible, the potential situations that will arise, the exercises are then repeated over and over until, as you mentioned Richard the mind begins to unconsciously perform them. (Very much like the use of pedals in a car for instance). They are handed experience from instructors that have, certainly recently with the conflict in Afghanistan and Iraq, been involved in confrontation. A supra state is created in which an individual may feel comfortable in there abilities to handle the situation.

In the same way street fighting techniques and physiology can be studied, and if performed over and over in a realistic manner I think that it could potentially prepare a person to deal with a violent situation. However, as has been said many times before there is no substitute for experience due to various factors that cannot be simulated.
However I do feel that both would be ideal in order to deal with confrontation, as mentioned in another topic, experience is beneficial depending on how the individual interprets it. Many bad experiences in confrontation could actually be destructive to the mindset of an individual.

My first post here and I don’t feel that I have worded it very well; I hope that it contributes .

I feel that exposure to violence is a must, to become used to violence. I work as a bouncer (Or door supervisor) and have seen some horrific things and I must admit from when i started to now (Just past the 1 Year mark) My frame of mind regarding violence has altered dramatically. I was no stranger to violent confrontations before the door, but like most they were few and far between so I never really became that used to the fear/adrenaline/threats etc. But in the past year i've seen all manner of things and dealt with so many violent incidents and people that I sometimes have to remind myself that the aggressive monster in front of me is an actual threat. You get so used to hearing, I'll stab you, shoot you, murder your family, etc etc and you get so used to going from the normal state to adrenaline/violent response to Physical restraint etc that it all seems a bit too "Normal" Violence/fear becomes a part of you and I sometimes wonder where the nicer version of me has gone. I'd recommend anyone who plans to take on a job that deals with violence to get some face time with it first. even if it's just aggression drills in your club/dojo so you can see and feel what it's like. I've worked with guys fresh outta school, or who've never had a fight or trained in any martial art or boxing etc and they've got their S.I.A Badge and reckon it's all a bit of a joke dealing with the scum of society. Forge training. I visualise my opponents being taken out by my choke/punch/kick/ etc every time i use it on the bag or in the "live" training with partners. I try to re create the feelings of my last confrontation so that i can immerse myself into the fear and thus learn to harness it. Not, escape it. Imagine if you were fearless! Not a good idea. Too many stupid ideas in the world to try if you had no fear. effectively chasing death. You can have all the physical skills in the world be the hardest puncher etc but if you lack the mental edge to deal with real violence then your walking around with a hand grenade that lacks any spark. I hope this has proved helpful.

TRAIN HARD< FIGHT EASY

If you train very hard, and very much, with hard contact.. the fight on the street has to be easier than the fights with your training partners.

Hi all,
Just joined this forum, great to see NLP being worked into personal protection.

I do think those who have been in the real scuffles tend to react to the situation better, pick up cues of impending fights better so they are prepared for it, AND are more "calm" or focussed during the fight.

I see that when sparring against someone who has been in the game for a while- the opposition is much smoother in body movements, they pick up attacks coming in earlier (is their calmness allowing a wider field of vision/stopping tunnel vision?), they dont run out of breath easy and are less prone to twists and takedowns.

I see the same with a boxer who was assisting me on the street, a nut had already taken out one of our colleagues, he'd been taken to the floor, all signs of intoxication and perhaps drug abuse (booger sugar, methinks). Apr 12 of his buddies going nuts around us, kicking and shoving us while we are on the floor, no support. I am on the floor, yelling and panting, and this guy, gets up off the floor, and cuffs the nut in one easy, slow, steady move. NO sign of hand tremors, relaxed gaze, quiet steady breathing and speech. I doubt if he would be in that condition, if he hadn't spent the past 10 years sparring and competing in the ring.

I guess any combat experience is good experience, as far as you FEAR (not feel) a threat for your safety. Sparring Muay Thai did it for me, Boxing seemed to have done it for my colleague. The more exposed I become to it the more relaxed I was when things kicked off. But what really made me SKILLED (read; capably violent) was a few seminars in the hands of Dennis Martin, now that man brought out something evil in me and I am forever greatfully to him for it.

Whittle over