Beta-8 options question

seein as how the Beta-8 syllabus is meant to organic and ever changing depending on research/experience/differing environamental factors I thought I'd open this one to y'all... its a question from a Senshido instructor who has havin a little look at some of the SFS material

Quote :

Hi Richard, I watched the full beta 8 series and thought it was really very very good.The proof of its excellence is that a rank novice or an instructor can learn alot from it and follow , understand and apply it I like the way you create that four part framework for understanding stages of a fight, while being flexible enough to mention that one can go from phase 1 to phase 4 directly.Identifying how to deal with a situation where the person covers up is very clever, as that is what often happens and if we dont train for it, we can freeze in the face of the main targets being difficult to reach.Dealing with this issue really handles a major and common situation someone involved in a fight is likely to face.I see it all the time in training, after I do the "left right blast" and fail to get a good trap, they often simply bend over and get their forearms up.
I wanted to ask you, I find (in training ) that when they are bent over like that , that hammer fisting to the kidney or back area can force them to come up in order to twist the exposed area away from the threat,or I use a knees into the side of their thigh( mega charlie horse) or side area.I find either these techniques will force him to stand up and allow me to continue to attack on the high line, or I get the impression that if delivered with full force, could in reality put a serious damper on the enemies enthusiam ,if you know what I mean.What do you think of this?I noticed you were not much into the hammer fists.I am not either, but sometimes when applied to the back or kidneys they seem to be good.Also I find big heavy slaps to the top or back of the head when they are curled up can also be good, I also like your suggestion of using the forearm instead of the hammer fist sometimes.Any opinions? And how would you alter your tactics if you were not ina confined space and didnt have a wall at hand or an obstacle strewn environemnt to use against him with pushing.

Speaking of pushing your material opened my mind to its possibility.In senshido we consider it to the enemies advantage when space is created as it gives him an opportunity to reorganise or draw a weapon. which is whay we try to take a trap and stay close.However I could see in a bar situation or ona crowded city street with many obstacles that a good shove could send them sailing over something,which could also be an excellent opportunity to run, so that was a real eye opener for me.

Well I hope I havent blabbed too much, just wanted to share some thoughts and tell you how much I enjoyed the material, it will stand the test of time and will come in very handy for many people.I assume you are getting good reactions in general for the beta 8 series? I look foward to getting on to the dvds I ordered, ie violent intent and psychological warfare and blank face.I find your combination of the psychological aspects and the physical to be a missing link in alot of training.Your point about the thuggish approach shows why.A thug who has the intention and capacity for utter callousness can be devasting even though he has little or no formal training,while a super trained martial artist who will flinch from extreme aggression might find himself smashed to pieces by the thug.Well on that happy note,have a good evening!!!!!

humdinger of a question, your thoughts?

"when they are bent over like that , that hammer fisting to the kidney or back area can force them to come up in order to twist the exposed area away from the threat,or I use a knees into the side of their thigh( mega charlie horse) or side area.I find either these techniques will force him to stand up and allow me to continue to attack on the high line"

if i didn't understand this right--forgive me in advance. i'm taking it as a--if the pattern is interrupted
by the person being doubled over...what to do:
my sense--if i haven't missed the point entirely, is to keep one hand on that head and brace to the opposide side of all strikes. meaning, push it down for upper cuts in large doses (open handed and with heals--which i think lends to grabbing the head if the momentum is lost for an RTD). stop [the head] from
realing sideways, bracing it for j-slaps in large numbers. sort of, "as long as your down there, lets make you feel like it was a big mistake and keep you there" rather than getting a person back to 'high line'. it is a great place [again, unless i really just didn't follow] to be because you can keep pushing the head all the way to the ground, keep one hand on the head as the other strikes repetitively. or kneel on that head and hammer down with your fist [that's the only time i really feel happy with the hammer fist].

"In senshido we consider it to the enemies advantage when space is created as it gives him an opportunity to reorganise or draw a weapon. which is whay we try to take a trap and stay close.However I could see in a bar situation or ona crowded city street with many obstacles that a good shove could send them sailing over something,which could also be an excellent opportunity to run, so that was a real eye opener for me."

again, if i followed this correctly...the thing with space is that if you are using it to send people into and over things, you are essentially keeping the strikes coming whether they are indirectly strikes [falling over and into stuff]. creating a space, like an elevation drive, is a space that can be filled with one's own moment and follow up. use the space for momentum and furthered attacks. space not filled, or with time lags, i guess would be disadvantagious. one thing i sort of like is shoving someone sideways--hand on the neck, as if passing them and shoving them. it is a gap that must immediately be answered by the person shoving as they attempt to regroup their center of gravity and direction of assault. they,in affect, will turn into your fist--or whatever, because you used the space to generate something and not provide them with opportunities to regroup and refocus.

this is my take on some of the points raised...but i can't say i fully understand the question--i can only say that i think i do. if he's down, keep him there. create a space, then promptly fill it with a monstrous
blast. that sort of thing is what i think of hearing those points raised.

Russell , thanks for your comments.If I understood you are saying if he is bent over and covered up, keep him that way and attack him to the head and face, instead of trying to "jack" him back up with blows to his back and kidneys etc.Thanks

hiya,
sounds like we're both effectively communicating with each other mate

Hi Russell, I guess like everything else in this subject, alot depends on how things go from second to second.I have had people get their hands so well around their heads and move around that I couldnt do much with the head at all and so had to resort to other targets, on the other hand if theya re more stunned then I was able to to either slap them heavy on the head( in training of course) or slip my hand between their arms and get at their face.The key i think is being sponteneous to the situation.Thanks again and Regards

agreed mate,
nothing worse than too much of a game plan--sort of a set up for disappointment, that .
nice exchanging with you,
-Russ

Not much to add other than what is covered on the "blast" section of the Beta8 dvds: continue blasting through the cover or "shunt" him

Thanks Richie and Russell, I have learned alot from this.Its a pleasure.

My thinking here may be a little too 'buddhist' but I always feel like for me, following the path of least resistance works best.

In other words, why bother going against what your opponent is trying to do? Instead, make what they are doing work to your advantage.

Why bother going for a shot over top and to the back or kidneys just to make your opponent straighten up? Aren't we ALWAYS working towards the same end, that being a knockout?

Just running this in my mind a couple times, my first reaction after throwing shots 1 and 2 when my opponent bends over and puts his forearms up, is to quickly and forcefully bring my knee up to meet his face.

In my limited experience, when someone has gone into this defensive posture with me it's been only for a second before they 'lunge' forward to get in tight and thus grappling begins.

Thanks for the discussion guys, you're all a great read as usual any thoughts?

sounds good to me mate.
very practical follow up--for me the point is the immediate response to the new
position as it most exploits him: knees make sense for the high line low line thing;
my sensibilities lend to hands. if it is at all possible at this hypothetical level [i say
for good measure ], i want him to think, 'oh shite, why'd i do that', the response
feeling so disadvantagious [for him]. my hands are faster [for me] than my knees are cooridinated
so this will be what comes from my responses--just as it suits me to let a head that
is traveling to the ground make it there.

i guess we're both in a zen watery goodness mood
[third eye cyclops thingy]

Actually when I have done full speed light force training and the other guy covers up really tight, I find myself usually going right for the knees into his side and then follow with whatever happens next.My training is strongly based on the idea to mix high and low line attacks to support the other.I was asking different questions to see if there was other good ideas out there.All the options mentioned here are good ones.

On the concept of trying to re-open someone who has doubled over and covered themselves. Why not just pull/trip them all the way down and kick them?

I figure instead of getting into a wrestling match if they are well covered up and still capable of fighting,I gravitate to smashing them on those wide open targets on their back and side.But then again if they are not well covered up and their face is available I go for the head.I guess it depends on the split second situation.