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happypap
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PostSubject: Knife DVDs   Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:42 pm

Hi Richard,

Great to see things have cleared up and the BS is finalized (hopefully). I like the new template for the forum also. Remember, if you need any website work give me an email or pm.

I have a question/issue with your knife dvd set. Now keep in mind, I have EVERY LAST ONE of your dvd's, audios and manuals, and love them all and you do such great work.

Also, keep in mind that I have not watched the new knife series you are offering and I am only making comments on the preview youtube video from the recent newsletter.

I teach knife defense (NoLie Blades Instructor) and also teach a couple other knife defense systems. I like to take a little from everywhere and mix them together a bit. I noticed that you don't aim for controlling the weapon bearing limb during all attacks. IMO as a knife defense instructor, that is the largest piece of the puzzle during a knife attack. Sure avoidance is the best answer (Nike technique...run, run, run!) But controlling that weapon bearing limb and THEN attacking the command center (or hell, just attack anything!)

I am not saying that controlling the weapon is not in your defense system, but from the demo video, it doesn't look like it is used much. I did see a couple different controls of the knife and limb but not is a good way. A couple different attacks you DID control the weapon and limb but only at a point where you were risking getting your neck opened up.

I was wondering why you don't incorporate the control as a main technique of the defense? It seems that your style is rather go ballistic on your attacker and strike, strike, strike. That is great and all, and I highly advocate that style of destruction, but only AFTER the weapon bearing limb has been 100% controlled. Then we work from that position. I am just very concerned about the repeated stabbing of the attacker who has the utmost intent to keep violently stabbing at the body.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this and I am sure you will have more great info to add to it as well as telling me that IS covered just not seen much in that demo video. lol!

Thanks bro! afro
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:31 am

hello Happypap

the first two dvds were done as an experiment between myself and Ed Baker in which we drilled to death attacking and attempting to defend the knife, the third dvd attempts to bring some of those conclusions together into a more directive advisory set up- however the set is very open ended and has led me to two conclusions regarding the knife

1. discussing and developing effective training drills for managing knife attacks delivered with realistic emotional intensity and ballistic mechanics is infinitely more useful than endless pontificating about techniques- you've just got to fucking do it and do it and do it until you develop that skillset

2. myself and Ed concluded that attacking the man was a higher priority than stopping the knife- when the attack is TRULY ballistic (VERY VERY few trainings or videos show truly fast intense unscripted repetitive knife attacks, usually just a static threat or single floppy wristed thrust or limp slash) stopping the knife arm can be near to impossible and an uneccessary distraction from what you CAN still guarantee will get a result ATTACKING the attacker

obviously if you can stop the attacking arm you should, but this to me is a "fairweather" concept, if you can immobilise his arm how dedicated an attack are you facing?

when the attack is intense and ferocious and unscripted its very hard to stop the arm

even if the attack is intense and ferocious and unscripted you can still tonk the guy and his soft vulnerable targets are no less vulnerable just because he has a peice of sharp steel in his mitt nor is he any less likely to cower, cover or turn away should you unleash a furious dose of violence into him...

if he is cowevering. covering or turning away he isnt stabbing or slashing very effectively

of course in moving forward to attack your attacker you could walk into the knife hand and effectively stab yourself but Ive run the drills countless times either focussing on attacking the man or immobilising the knife hand and Ive made my choice for myself about which horse to back should the shit ever hit the fan for real- and its not a close call for me either, in my experience only attacking the man makes you die less often in the drills,

but make no mistake you will still "die", unless the knife man is kissing your arse or a total fucking spaz

the thing is everyone must come to their own conclusions, do the drills for themselves and decide which horse to back

the most important question in "knife defence" is: are you being attacked in training with realistic intensity and speed, intent and IMPROVISATION?

its all very well knowing how to do something cool when you know where he is going to cut but it will all go to shit when some horrible fucker like me comes at you hacking and slashing like a berserker with intent to put as many potential lethal holes and slices in you in a short a space of time as possible

when I look at knife defence clips the first thinkg I look at? the attacker!
what speed intensity and improvisation am I looking at?

hope this helps Happypap, do you have any clips of your training school we could take a peek at mate?
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:00 am

ok so I found some Nolies blade training

IF we accept that a good indicator of training is how closely it replicates reality and THEREFORE, emprically, we MUST look at the ferocity, intenstiy and UNSCRIPTED nature of the ATTACKS during the drills rather than looking at what we think of the defenses how do we think the following videos hold up:

video 1


video 2
?

video 3





looking at ferocity of unscripted ballistic frenzied attacks how do these videos rate?

can anyone show me any videos of any knife defence system where people are training with unscripted ballistic frenzied knife attacks please?


Last edited by Richard Grannon on Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:00 am

Hi Rich,
I posted as a guest before in the original thread. I thought I was logged in under my regular handle. Anyways, I agree with you 150% about training with an attacker that gives it his all and REALLY tries to "harm" you. Sure injuries happen more often, but that is what it takes to be ready in the streets against a committed attacker who's intentions are to shred you to pieces. I agree that there are no "real life" training videos or clips out there. Granted, these people may train with intent and go 100% but I hardly ever see a video showing it. I have seen a couple that have there use - Check out Red Zone Knife, Jerry is a great guy who has picked apart many styles and attacks and found a VERY good knife defense system. I personally endorse it. The NoLie Blades "concept" is also very good. I agree those videos are not the best but you really need to take one of these courses and you'll see for yourself what I mean. Hank has trained with Vunak since he was a kid and a lot of the defense and attacks stem from the training from Vu.

I would love to make a video of some of my knife training to show you, problem is I am recovering from a severe ankle and leg injury at the moment and I am all swollen pig But I promise I will make one for you as soon as I am back on my feet and 100%. I have been wanting to make one for some time now and just never had the time. No

When I have some extra time I will post some of the red zone work we do also.

Glad to see the board back up bro.
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:08 am

In a lot of books where the authors have looked at a large number of knife attacks. Aggression seems to be one of the most decisive factor. James LaFond's "The Logic of Steel" for instance. The authors of "Prison's Bloody Iron" also said, based on their experience that aggression was an extremely decisive factor in determining who wins. Among other factors such as skill, athleticism and experience too of course. But aggression is a big one. It may be wiser to start off with a quick evasion and counter rather than attacking immediately, but staying in such a defensive mode throughout seems to have a bad track record. If you're going to be like that, don't half-ass it. RUN!

Controlling the knife arm seems more like a thing to do when you get the opportunity. But i.e., as seen in most of the attacks in the knife defense clip at the end of this post, that opportunity may not present itself readily. You may have to sacrifice to get it. AFAIK there is only one thing to do with that arm if you get a good grip on it. Break it. Even if it's your own damn mother. An attempt on your life is not to be taken lightly. Politically correct locks and disarms may of course be applicable to lightweight, uncomitted and unskilled enemies, but in general it seems wiser to err on the side of (your) safety. Simply stopping the knife arm seems to be a more reliable thing simply because it's more likely to be available, even though the arm is not under control, and a hard strike to the head is as good a pattern interrupt as any. From which you can start an all out attack. But... if the guy is insanely good with the knife, the only hope seems to be sacrificing some meat in order to capture and destroy that arm in a kamikaze rush, in any way by any means, explosively wrenching that arm in the most fucked up position imaginable. Then kill him and see what can be done about the wounds (or die in the attempt of all this).

Now, it is reasonable to a degree, but a factor that seems to have a HUGE influence on how people approach knife defense is the fear of the knife. Conversely, people who use knives make the mistake of acting as if the knife magically will make the enemy go away, or something. And they forget about everything else they ever learned about fighting. It's all psychological. A knife is a knife is a knife. but people seem to have a "knife complex" if you will, where the knife is made into far more than it is. The only thing a knife does is focus the kinetic energy of your strikes onto a smaller surface area than the structural integrity of the body can withstand. It makes your hand sharp. A healthy respect for what it is capable of is essential, but excessive fear will work against you (unless you go all out and run). The dilligence people can apply to knife defense is rarely seen when defending against punches. But a punch isn't necessarily any less dangerous. As examplified in the beginning of > this clip <

Actually it seems to make more sense at this point to use knife fighting concepts in unarmed combat, and unarmed combat concepts in knife combat. That way people may respect the KO potential of a punch more (which will stop you FAR quicker than any knife will ever do) and also understand the brute force that can be involved in knife attacks. Where knives are embedded to the hilt in skulls, bent 45 degrees against some item the knife couldn't penetrate and so on. Punches aren't harmless and knife attacks aren't soft and flowery... (never done more brutal knifework than when simply punching, hammerfisting and elbowing with the knife, and otherwise behaving as in normal unarmed combat. In an knife Vs. unarmed enemy approach BTW) Another reason is the fact that most knives coming in are assumed to be punches - even after several hits - until the amount of blood makes it obvious enough of course, but that's a little late. It only makes sense then to assume all punches are knives. Again; not getting caught up with excesive fear.

... Video appraisal...

Youtube clips can be deceptive. But the attackers aren't attacking in those clips (except the guys in the beginning). The instructor (Hank Hayes I believe) seems to be demonstrating ideas more than demonstrating how it holds up under pressure. Also, when isolating a particular piece and drilling it, it tends to look very different and unrealistic, because frankly those situations do not occur outside of training. But they can build good reflexes easier than any other method, and it is not something to judge a system's realism by. It would be almost like saying a fighting system works or doesen't by looking at how they do pushups. It's a different matter if they're building an idiotic reflex of course, but the real questions are answered in all out pressure tests with marking blades. The nolieblade concept is good that way. If the training knife hits, it leaves a mark. If the attacker is behaving like someone who is really trying to kill and you don't have many marks. Whatever you're doing is working. As they say, "the mark doesen't lie." The quality of training depends on the realism of the attacker.

Youtube video: This attacker looked ferocious enough
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:55 pm

RichardB.....What's up bro!!! Great post. KISS is the best approach in my eyes when it comes to knife defense. Distract, attach, control, destroy.....but the main part is controlling the weapon bearing limb 100% drunken
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:50 pm

Quote :
but the main part is controlling the weapon bearing limb 100%

it really isnt and if you believe that then you guys are living in cloud cuckoo land, its a martial arts "control fantasy" - but hey, I made my case as best I could and have no vested interest in pushing a particular "knife defense system" (I lol heartily at the very notion of such a thing, lol, lol, and lol again)

y'all do what you want, I'll be over in the corner concentrating on maiming the fucker before he even gets going rather than playing pat a cake, trap slap with a compliant polite partner inducing me into a hypnotic trance of invulnerabilty pirat

you know you have a better chance of surviving being shot right? not many bullet dodgin systems around though- weird

"who am I to blow against the wind?"

ps this is the bit where I treat my forum like a flyer for what I teach (you understand Im not arguing with you guys or negating your map of reality just fulfilling my responsibilites as an instructor on his own forum) :

knife defense in Richies (the chap whose forum this is) view of reality = attack the man holding the knife, immobilsing the knife hand is a nice idea on the mat with your compliant polite partner but secondary and incidental in a full force frenzied knifing flurry
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:37 pm

2 cents

Beat the piss out of them by whatever means necessary to ensure your safety and the safety of others in the future. Its easy to get control of the knife when they are unconscious.
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:36 pm

roadkill wrote:
2 cents

Beat the piss out of them by whatever means necessary to ensure your safety and the safety of others in the future. Its easy to get control of the knife when they are unconscious.
What you and Rich aren't understanding is that you CAN'T get in to attack without getting stabbed or cut and this will be repeatedly. I could easily attack the head and body with furious strikes but what if the guy is all drugged up or drunk? He will take more abuse while stabbing the shit out of me. But instead if I quickly distract then attach my entire body weight to the weapon bearing limb I have now lowered the risk for severe stab wounds, while at the same time controlling the attacker. I then move from that position to a more dominant attack position and THEN I will
Quote :
"view of reality = attack the man holding the knife"

Rich I am by no means saying what you are teaching is wrong. Nothing at all like that. I was only wondering if there is more detail to controlling the weapon limb in these dvds since the demo showed none of this.

Nothing but I love you
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:05 am

From what I have learned - from training with my teacher who grew up in the Philippines (a well known knife carrying culture) before moving to Oakland California where he also had opportunity to use his skills, and also from my fellow students - Doorman, Marine, LEO, Army Ranger to name a few - You've got to take out "the computer" i.e. the brain, asap - that's your best chance for survival.
The vid that RichardB posted seems to show rather well that there is no defense in waiting and 'defending' against the knife hand - ESPECIALLY if you wait for it to come to you.
Of course this is assuming that you see it coming (which is another whole discussion in itself) but if you do, then the same ideas seem to apply as do for empty hand - pre-empt, forward pressure, hit head repeatedly!
Like RichardB said, one has to see the knife as a pointy fist - more hazardous for sure, but the same angles of attack all the same.

The only difference we practiced for dealing with a knife was to angle the body whilst closing to gain a little more protection, and if possible, to cover or brace with one arm to protect the vital organs as you moved in, meanwhile the other hand was aiming straight for the aggressor's head of course.
Now, I guess it's theoretically possible to strip back out to the knife hand once you've closed, but then you are generally using 2 hands against one, and the aggressor can still move and still has one hand free to grab/strike you - so still not a good option I think if given a choice.

Also, 3 points I've noticed about someone that is good with a blade:
1 - You reach your hands out and you'll get them cut.
2 - They may not extend the knife hand until they are in very close and have already got hold of you so no arm to gain control over.
3 - They lie.
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:01 am

This is a question I want an answer to.
So the best strategy is to train to move in fast for a devastating hit??
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:10 am

Against incompetant enemies, you may very well get safe opportunities to grab and disarm. But against a reasonably skilled knife attacker (and this only requires minimal training). Someone who sets up attacks with unarmed strikes, is real quick in and out, works within his range and applies decent unarmed skills. Grabbing anything let alone blocks and deflections become difficult. Quick and sharp counterstrikes may serve you better. And attacking fully as soon as you get him enough that he's not poised to carve you up when going in for a real beating. It's not all that different from purely unarmed fighting is it?

It seems best to treat knife and unarmed fighting more or less the same. Because there are so many commonalities, not to mention that an assumption of the enemy being unarmed - if your ways of handling knives Vs. fists are very different - may well prove fatal. The statistics based on surveys seem to indicate this happens about 80% of the time. So while IMO it would be stupid to neglect looking at ways to minimize exposure to knives, for the moment what's the best strategy for unarmed combat?

Everyone has an opinion, but stuff that seems to have the best track record is aggression. Countering while evading seems to work too, for defense without going defensive, mentally. As this guy is doing Attacking effectively changes things more in your favor. It's hard to fight well while being pummeled. Now the non-responsive enemies that Cocktail refers to do seem like valid concerns. But how skilled are they? If they're incompetant enough to give you good opportunities to destroy an arm then by all means. But, if they're skilled, you are not going to grab anything without sacrificing something for it. So that's a judgement call.

If they're real skilled - drugged or not - then sacrificing something to limit the amount of time that knife gets to carve you up may be your only hope (except for running or shooting the guy from a distance). Basically rushing him, pinning the arm between your and his body where it can't move to attack or escape, and not to get into that whole submission game but only to either blast all your weight and power through an extended elbow or twist the humerus out of the shoulder by explosive wrenching, holding the two ends of the forearm. Then get him down and stomp him to death immediately. Because if just one major artery got severed with the kind of heart rate you're having you may have less than one minute to stop that bleed before you start passing out. The situation is ugly as fuck!

That is of course for the highly skilled knife attacker. The guy who works the knife mostly within his optimal range, sets up everything with unarmed strikes, is very fast and sharp, picks important targets and is very good at countering. Maybe someone like this guy. Anything short of that will leave fingers and hand pieces flying all over the place. You'll end up like this guy: (Burglar who got caught and then punched the guy's wife, attacked with an old cutlass, not a knife. If the story was correct naturally.)

But to get back to the most likely situation you're dealing with. It's a semi-surprising attack where whether there is a knife involved or not is uncertain. And it would be foolish to assume the guy didn't have at least rudimentary skill, even though there are a lot of incompetants out there. Trying not to get hit while giving as heavy an offensive as possible seems like the overall best strategy both for knife and unarmed attacks. And of course, if he gives you the arm, take it and continue. But having a knife defense that depends on you seeing the knife and is also significantly different from how you fight an unarmed enemy is dangerous. You need to be fighting unarmed people effectively as if they have knifes, in case they do. But it's definitely not a bad thing to be well versed in something like the Red Zone approach as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:38 am

Quote :
What you and Rich aren't understanding is that you CAN'T get in to attack without getting stabbed or cut and this will be repeatedly.

Cocktail, take a deep breath mate, and allow me to rant at you for a moment please, indulge me as this is an issue not only pertinent to this issue but to the usage of this forum Razz

- you CAN'T make statements like that, you have no idea what anybody else has an understanding of or not and TRUST ME my understanding of this subject does NOT need filling in by YOU - TRUST ME MATE

I have written FOUR posts on this forum before getting back to this same old chestnut that made me close down the forum last time: WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS FORUM FOR?

we had Bob Spour on here, over 40 years of martial arts experience and served in the SAS, go and look how few questions there are in his forum section!

go back and review this forum how many questions are actually aimed at me, the main character in this epynomyously titled forum!!!! some but not many

so you could ask "Jeeez Richie calm down whats with the ego trip?"

Its not an ego trip, I just dont understand why you would register on a persons forum, ask that person a question and partially not read and then negate his answers- it freaks me out and thats why I just closed it last time

e.g.

Joe the plumbers forum

"hey Joe when squiffing my pipe should I use a monkey wrench or a giraffe wrench?"

"hi mate, I would use a monkey wrench"

"Nah, its giraffe wrench all the way"

seem strange?? seem a bit fucking pointless??

Why even ask Joe the question in the first place? THIS IS WHY I SHUT DOWN THE FORUM LAST TIME

If you want to do things another way because you just want to I couldnt care less, no wait let me try... nnnnngggggh.... no I tried and I really couldnt care less Very Happy go with god, do compliant knife drills

BUT PLEASE dont come on this, Richard Grannons blah blah forum, ask me questions that are really just an excuse to talk about something else, another style or system that I think is a load of old shite and then tell ME that I dont understand the concepts I teach

if you have such a strong opinion, start your own forum or a blog or a website and write your own damn articles

listen to me this time

please

or I will cry Very Happy

its not that I dont understand that you might get stabbed attacking the knife man, HOW BLOODY INSULTING, do you think Im a fucking moron??? In fact didnt I SPECIFICALLY say in my earlier post "you may stab yourself moving forward on to the knife hand"????

YES.... yes!!! I did say EXACTLY THAT!

if you are going to ask me a question have the fucking courtesy to read my fucking response properly before going directly against what Ive said and claiming I lack understanding (not just you Cocktail san, thats aimed at every fucking body)

its not that you SHOULDNT immobilise the knife hand... let me REPEAT myself its that against a proper attack most of the time you CANT!!!!!!

can NOT

you can not

you are not capable of

it will not be possible

does not compute

GO AND TRY IT!!

take any nifty knife immobilsation technique you like and tell your partner to put AS MANY SLASHES AND HOLES IN YOU with your plastic (not wooden this drill can get you accidentally hurt) as possible to attack you with explosivity, savagery in a totally unscripted primal blur

THE HAND going for the knife WILL GET CHIGGITY CHOPPED UP and you will be getting stabbed and slashed at the rate at which the KNIFE MAN chooses, you must control and destroy his script

you have no chance, as Rich Dimitri often says "the hand is faster than the eye"


of course, you may still die... please ref. my post above as regards getting shot with bullets, martial artists tend to overestimate their ability to handle a PROPER attack and underestimate how terminally dangerous it is. Why? because of silly gay pat a cake drills that build your hand to eye coordination and reflexes and make you feel all comfortable confident and squishy warm inside

Cocktail- the mighty Richie has spoken, acknowledge his power cheers

if you want to disagree with me thats cool, not reading my replies and saying I lack understanding when that supposed gap in my understanding was filled in an earlier post is not cool

OK

ahem, thats my rant out the way

good to have y'all back

Hamish welcome to the forum, I see you sorted your issues out, your avatar is disturbing and sorry you have come in on such a rant fuelled day.
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:53 am

RichB and Maija

re. treating it like an unarmed attack- yes I suppose so but should we also programme in that we treat it like an unarmed attack against 3 bigger guys where if we fail we will kidnapped and dragged off to another location to do tricks for a talking puppet? the emotional intensity should be nuclear

and the thought of ending up like that brazillian burglar video RichB posted should keep us focussed

reminds me, I asked Bob once how he stayed awake and switched on whilst on observation for days on end, his chilling answer indicated that the very real threat of capture followed by weeks of torture was good enough motivation

when facing the nightmare scenarios, beyond the pub brawl, into the realm of robbery rape kidnap murder you are going to have to be accessing those states of mind and emotion that take you beyond your normal capabilities, the state a rabbit goes into before it chews its leg off to get out of the trap, you will have to let go of self preservation, take the brakes of your central nervous system natural drive to keep the body moving and operating within "safe ranges" and go into some deep spartan zen altered battle berserker consciousness

you might still get stabbed to death or whatever, but at least you will give a bloody good account of yourself before you go, which sometimes is the best you can hope for, realistically

let go of the steven seagal fantasy of disarming the bandana wearing leather jacketed switch blade carrying 80's action flick stereotypical "hoods", its nonsense, dangerous nonsense

against a compliant attack, anything will work... even systema lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:26 pm

Richard Grannon wrote:
re. treating it like an unarmed attack- yes I suppose so but should we also programme in that we treat it like an unarmed attack against 3 bigger guys where if we fail we will kidnapped and dragged off to another location to do tricks for a talking puppet? the emotional intensity should be nuclear

That sounds wise. Fighting is no game. Any fight can escalate. Also it can be hard to diagnose a situation for what it is in the heat of the moment, so assuming the worst seems to make sense. Plus the fact that shit happens. I.e., cracking the head against the asphalt and dying or becoming a retard because of a primate hiearchy game. If the other guy is just being an ape who doesen't know what he's doing; tough shit for him. "Any sufficiently stupid idea is indistinguishable from malice, and so should be treated as such. " Unknown.

BTW if I'm being an ass I need to be told so explicitly. For some reason I am extremely bad at picking up "people stuff", anything that is in any way subtle, and "unwritten rules." All that shit just goes *KZummmm* right over my head. Then again, I am of course an alien. alien
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:18 pm

If I may add one more element into this discussion…

It seems that few disagree that there is a likelihood of someone bleeding during an edged weapon encounter.

Have you ever tried to hold onto anything when your hand was covered in blood, or anything that was covered in blood? I can tell you from personal experience that it is dam difficult and really quite messy.

Here is a little drill for you… Dip your hands into vegetable oil... shake off the excess and try to control a limb and you will have an idea of what it will be like. Yes it will be that slickery until the blood starts to dry a bit and then it just gets sticky as hell.
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:12 pm

i'm not dancing, just mostly a spectator...but from a practical stance i'm thinking:

if i'm going for an arm to cling to, i'm reacting--successful or not...he's still the attacker, i'm still
the attack-ee.

it sounds highly skilled and time consuming--even if i'm successful,what if there's a friend of his for follow through

i want to feel like i'm the attacker...and as long as i'm getting cut either way, i don't think there's
a question any more. if i'm scared [personally], i think i'd be overly fixated on grabbing that hand or arm. in my case it would lack commitment. it turns the goal into self preservation and not hurting the
attacker [in my head anyways]. it sort of reeks of denial, with all due respect.
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:42 pm

Richie said: 're. treating it like an unarmed attack- yes I suppose so but should we also programme in that we treat it like an unarmed attack against 3 bigger guys where if we fail we will kidnapped and dragged off to another location to do tricks for a talking puppet? the emotional intensity should be nuclear'

Absolutely! I am not excited at the prospect of doing tricks for this puppet guy either, and actually what I am trying to learn from this forum and your methods Richie, is the 'emotional content' part. I'm hoping that the muscle memory of my previous training would kick in should the sh#t hit the fan, but I'm not naturally good at 'rabid nutter' (though perhaps there's some berzerker genes hidden deep) so this is the part I need to work on. Your ideas seem to combine physical movement with emotional content within chaos, a new level of difficulty for me!

To clarify what I meant by seeing it as as unarmed attack - Seems like a blade has a large psychological effect, which is probably why people carry them. Sometimes this effect is more visceral than even a gun - so when dealing with one I was taught to understand the angles of attack , to see things for what they are instead of creating more fear by freaking out on the fact that you are facing a blade, when in the end it's the person holding the weapon that you have to deal with.
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:39 pm

Quote :
Because if just one major artery got severed with the kind of heart rate you're having you may have less than one minute to stop that bleed before you start passing out. The situation is ugly as fuck!
This is completely untrue and myth. RICHARDB

Rich, you really need to chill brother. I am not attacking you and I DID read your posts. They sure do rant on and go on tangents but I read them from start to finish. I agree that attacking the attacker is a must. I agree that compliant training is 100% bullshit and garbage. I DON'T agree that we can treat knife defense like hand to hand!!!! That is just ridiculous. In any case you should be looking for weapons at all times, whether it may be a clip on the outside of a pocket or a hidden hand etc.

Like I said earlier (did you read my posts?) albino I will post a quick clip for you regarding some REAL DEAL knife defense and control. It is used by the LAPD SWAT and is now being passed around to military training.

On another note......what is a discussion forum for?????? DISCUSSING! Whether you are the board owner or night you shouldn't get all heated when a question is asked. I asked a SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE question and then stated that controlling the weapon limb is a must. Whether you think it is or not is irrelevant. All I asked is if the dvd had any controlling in it and that was it. All you needed to do is say "Yes cocktail, controlling the weapon limb can be great given the correct circumstances and there ARE some controls on the last section of the dvd you might be interested in. Your way around the post was neither professional nor answered my question. Now I probably won't buy it when all I wanted was an answer for more info before I purchased yet another one of your dvds. Not a great way to sell stuff bro. MIGHT WANT TO TAKE A MARKETING COURSE hahaha

Again, this is a forum for discussions. Ban who you want, remove the forum from the net, put it back up, whatever you want. It's yours, but take note that is exactly what these forums are for. FOr members to discuss the topics at hand and help grow the board in a whole. If you don't like the topic or discussion then don't post in it. Simple as that. Just because you are the "owner" doesn't mean you have to put your two cents in when you don't want to discuss the topic or you think everyone is wrong. I own and operate about 5 forums and know what I am talking about. I don't agree with everything that is said, but if I sat there and read all the bullshit and got into the bullshit discussions, I would probably be as irritated as you get. Just leave it alone if you don't like it.

You also let this forum get to you WAY too deeply and I don't know why. Considering you are all about NLP and PSYCHOLOGY, you would think you would have more control over your emotions and aggression. Evil or Very Mad Twisted Evil Mad lol!

So relax and let the wind take your sail for a ride every now and then. It might open you up to many new discussions, ideas and you could very well learn something from them. (not this thread exactly, but every thread)

I always seem to resort back to your audio and here you say "I don't buy /watch other instructor's dvds or material. I feel my information is the best" Yet I do notice over the time I have spent here, you DO watch other instructors stuff and follow some of the techniques and behaviors. SO you are taking in new ideas and styles all the time. Well having this forum is in a sense the same realm. EVEN the all mighty Richard Grannon jocolor could learn some things if he would just knock the chips off the shoulder a bit. (the ego thing you mentioned earlier) see i DO read your posts study rabbit

This forum shouldnt be for praising your work (which I have done many times) and if you dont like the post or thread you get all raged inside. Again, don't like the topic? Stay away form it. This is how a forum works. IF you don't like it, shut her down for good.

I have said my peace (like yourself) and not trying to keep this going. Or make an argument out of it what-so-ever. I was only intrigued by the video clip I saw and wanted to hear more before purchasing.

I am done. Take care!
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:17 pm

cocktail wrote:
Quote :
The situation is ugly as fuck!
This is completely untrue and myth. RICHARDB

Well they do say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, there is certainly room for subjective interpretation there. But are the potential bleed rates incorrect? In the world of martial arts that could very well be. But nevertheless > here < is the source of the information behind that statement.

Quote :
CONTEMPORARY KNIFE TARGETING
Modern Science vs. W.E. Fairbairn's Timetable of Death
by Christopher Grosz and Michael D Janich

William Fairbairn's Timetable of Death has been used for years as a standard reference tool by students of edged-weapon tactics. When Christopher Grosz began studying the timetable to validate its use as a reference for law-enforcement responses to edged-weapons attacks, he made a surprising discovery - the information in it was flawed. Grosz began a thorough analysis of Fairbairn's work, human anatomy and the realities of effective knife targeting. He later teamed up with knife expert Michael Janich to document it all in this book. Research was conducted with the help of recognized experts in both the medical and tactical fields. The result is a modern, medically accurate version of Fairbairn's original timetable - plus contemporary self-defense applications of the updated data - that will become the new definitive resource for all students of edged-weapons tactics.

Note that the statement was that loss of cosciousness could happen as early as that, not actual death by exsanguination. And naturally with a pessimistic heart rate of 220 BPM, because you can't afford to fuck up that one. But loss of consciousness in that case is in all likelyhood death unles you get medical help ASAP. With all this said, this is worst case scenario thinking for that kind of bleed. But the estimated bleed times are really beside the point. The overall plan against that type of attacker is still to stomp to death and binding your wounds real quick. We do agree that a major arterial bleed is a serious situation that needs to be adressed fast right?

BTW if you haven't, pick up that book. The information looks pretty solid. Anyone who deals with knives and fighting should at least have a look at it.
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:40 pm

HI richardb,
Your quoted me wrong in the first part of your post. I agree that would def be one messed up situation and requires medical attantion right away. The myth is the "bleed out" part.

Quote :
The overall plan against that type of attacker is still to stomp to death and binding your wounds real quick. We do agree that a major arterial bleed is a serious situation that needs to be adressed fast right?

I agree with you on this 100% :-)
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:00 pm

cocktail wrote:
HI richardb,
Your quoted me wrong in the first part of your post.

All fun and jest of course. The rest of the post centered on the bleed out issue. If all of it is wrong I'd be happy to discard the bad information. But only in exchange for better information.

And again, just to clarify, the issue is about losing enough blood and blood pressure to lose consciousness. Not to bleed out per se, as in exsanguination and irreversible hypovolemic shock. Which will take a little bit more time, but an unconscious man isn't going to be doing much so it's a moot point.

Of course it is purely academic in the end, but interesting. study
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:50 pm

cocktail wrote:
The myth is the "bleed out" part.

Just one additional clarification of exactly is being said, for the sake of the discussion. In the original post where the statement entered the discussion it was said that...

Quote :
you may have less than one minute to stop that bleed

...not necessarily that loss of consciousness would happen within one minute. It's just that if you haven't gotten to it within one minute, you're really running low on time. Remember that it is obligatory to fumble about a bit too. Shock hits almost twice as fast as unconsciousness. Not to mention what adrenaline does to your cognitive and fine motor abilities.

The book has been dug up, so to quote the thing:

Quote :
...it's not uncommon for a confrontation to start with the person's heart beating at a slower rate. If he is cut and his blood pressure begins to drop, the heart rate will automatically increase to compensate for the lower blood pressure. Heart rates starting at 130 beats per minute might easily elevate to the 170+ range once blood loss ensues. Obviously, this increase in heart rate will also reduce the amount of time that will pass before the onset of shock, unconsciousness and death.

If you want the full tables, buy the book, but here's some of it.

At 175 BPM, with 6100 ml of blood to begin with, stroke volume per beat of 98 ml. They've estimated unconsciousness to hit (with a fully severed artery) at roughly:

Brachial: 1 min, 4 sec. - In your arm.
Radial: 2 min, 8 sec. - In your forearm.
Carotid: 1 min, 25 sec. - In your neck.
Iliac: 1 min, 4 sec. - In the crease of your hip.

The death times lag behind roughly 20 to 30 seconds.

At 220 BPM with everything else the same, the unconsciousness timeline for the Radial artery - which is the smallest significant artery - is 1 min, 42 sec.

Naturally the injury might be less severe, but that's a dangerous assumption to make.
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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:06 pm

cocktail wrote:
Quote :
Because if just one major artery got severed with the kind of heart rate you're having you may have less than one minute to stop that bleed before you start passing out. The situation is ugly as fuck!
This is completely untrue and myth. RICHARDB

Rich, you really need to chill brother. I am not attacking you and I DID read your posts. They sure do rant on and go on tangents but I read them from start to finish. I agree that attacking the attacker is a must. I agree that compliant training is 100% bullshit and garbage. I DON'T agree that we can treat knife defense like hand to hand!!!! That is just ridiculous. In any case you should be looking for weapons at all times, whether it may be a clip on the outside of a pocket or a hidden hand etc.

Like I said earlier (did you read my posts?) albino I will post a quick clip for you regarding some REAL DEAL knife defense and control. It is used by the LAPD SWAT and is now being passed around to military training.

On another note......what is a discussion forum for?????? DISCUSSING! Whether you are the board owner or night you shouldn't get all heated when a question is asked. I asked a SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE question and then stated that controlling the weapon limb is a must. Whether you think it is or not is irrelevant. All I asked is if the dvd had any controlling in it and that was it. All you needed to do is say "Yes cocktail, controlling the weapon limb can be great given the correct circumstances and there ARE some controls on the last section of the dvd you might be interested in. Your way around the post was neither professional nor answered my question. Now I probably won't buy it when all I wanted was an answer for more info before I purchased yet another one of your dvds. Not a great way to sell stuff bro. MIGHT WANT TO TAKE A MARKETING COURSE hahaha

Again, this is a forum for discussions. Ban who you want, remove the forum from the net, put it back up, whatever you want. It's yours, but take note that is exactly what these forums are for. FOr members to discuss the topics at hand and help grow the board in a whole. If you don't like the topic or discussion then don't post in it. Simple as that. Just because you are the "owner" doesn't mean you have to put your two cents in when you don't want to discuss the topic or you think everyone is wrong. I own and operate about 5 forums and know what I am talking about. I don't agree with everything that is said, but if I sat there and read all the bullshit and got into the bullshit discussions, I would probably be as irritated as you get. Just leave it alone if you don't like it.

You also let this forum get to you WAY too deeply and I don't know why. Considering you are all about NLP and PSYCHOLOGY, you would think you would have more control over your emotions and aggression. Evil or Very Mad Twisted Evil Mad lol!

So relax and let the wind take your sail for a ride every now and then. It might open you up to many new discussions, ideas and you could very well learn something from them. (not this thread exactly, but every thread)

I always seem to resort back to your audio and here you say "I don't buy /watch other instructor's dvds or material. I feel my information is the best" Yet I do notice over the time I have spent here, you DO watch other instructors stuff and follow some of the techniques and behaviors. SO you are taking in new ideas and styles all the time. Well having this forum is in a sense the same realm. EVEN the all mighty Richard Grannon jocolor could learn some things if he would just knock the chips off the shoulder a bit. (the ego thing you mentioned earlier) see i DO read your posts study rabbit

This forum shouldnt be for praising your work (which I have done many times) and if you dont like the post or thread you get all raged inside. Again, don't like the topic? Stay away form it. This is how a forum works. IF you don't like it, shut her down for good.

I have said my peace (like yourself) and not trying to keep this going. Or make an argument out of it what-so-ever. I was only intrigued by the video clip I saw and wanted to hear more before purchasing.

I am done. Take care!

The time you spend posting on forums and devloping an online persona would be better spent actually training, developing real skills and getting some real world experience- marketing men who dont really care for their students who see this field as a sales opportunity all fail mate.

Believe it or not the average streetfightsecrets student isnt some snotty kid in the 18-25 year old range they are actually mostly experienced guys and girls between 35 and 65, most of whom have some instructing experience themselves- its impossible to pull the wool over the eyes of these crusty old martial artists they see straight through it. One look at you and they know. Its spooky. Very Happy

I suspect you see this field as a lucrative marketing opportunity and are maybe even a little tinged with jealousy, dont worry lar, loads of people feel the same way, but you shouldnt let these things cloud your judgement. The agenda your pushing on this forum will push people away from you rather than draw them to you and drive your objectives further from you the more you strive for them.

Speaking to anyone whilst hammering them with a heavy agenda will drive them away, you should get my "blank face" cd if you want to know more about this and the way I draw people to me- its fundamentally about a lack of agenda though- I teach through choice. Simple as.

I dont need the money, I dont need the external validation- and people can tell, even not very intellectually clever people just know this instinctually. its a vibe they get- the same vibe that screams "try hard" and "wannabe" that will repel people away from aspiring instructors who think its just about teaching the same technique and peppering it with the same psychological jargon. Wrong. Thats why I never worry about people ripping off my material, which they do in great numbers pirat

SOme things you cant fake and despite what the internet marketing gurus have been saying honesty is actually the best policy for long term customer loyalty.

If your going to carry on posting here Cocktail can I just ask you to take it down a notch and dont personally attack me or anyone else on here again, I managed to make my point with personally attacking you (I dont know you and trust me, despite what you've decided in your own little head, you do not know me) its just not necessary or helpful to discussion

attack the position or the opinion, not the individual, it doesnt help.

Maija I have something to say about the emotional thing but i ran out of time, hahaha! damiit

back later Cool




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PostSubject: Re: Knife DVDs   Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:24 pm

Quote :
Absolutely! I am not excited at the prospect of doing tricks for this puppet guy either, and actually what I am trying to learn from this forum and your methods Richie, is the 'emotional content' part. I'm hoping that the muscle memory of my previous training would kick in should the sh#t hit the fan, but I'm not naturally good at 'rabid nutter' (though perhaps there's some berzerker genes hidden deep) so this is the part I need to work on. Your ideas seem to combine physical movement with emotional content within chaos, a new level of difficulty for me!

its a tricky one Maija and probably would represent a step forward in combatives training- moving beyond swearing at pads and shouting while you hit them, you've got to delve a bit deeper than that

there is a combative attribute called "explosivity" that is both physical and psychological which I find myself coming back to again and again at the moment- maybe something along these lines that would asnwer your question could be developed
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