Palm Pads Problems

anyone else find palms on pads and bags a bit... well... "shit"?

not saying the drill shown is shit, its not, Im talking general now- Ive foind palming heavy bags useless, palming thai pads ok, but palm striking a partner with a helmet on in abit of pressure drill or doing shot placement to be best

doing a normal muaythai/boxing routine is 100 times more satisfying - obviously that is what the pads are originally designed for for starters

just wondering: does anyone else get that?

whats so different about palm when everything else can be worked on bags and pads?

Richard Grannon wrote:

anyone else find palms on pads and bags a bit... well... "shit"?


whats so different about palm when everything else can be worked on bags and pads?

i honestly don't mind--but then i am the village idiot

for me though, it does not ditract from your point. i do every f&*king thing to accomodate the
awkwardness and still generate power, then by the time i actually get to slowed drills with real
face contact it's like xmas morning, easter sunday, first day of vacation, erm, birthday dinner,
[running out of analogies here ], and a bachelor party all rolled up into one. it's much easier.
it ends up for me as a kwasi karate-kid 'wax-on' drill that makes me really aware of how i'm
aligning everything. i haven't gotten on the heavy bag in years--since fists and boxing, so i don't
have that let down effect. i'm used to shite equipment, and as a result, i've sort of found a way
to make the best of it. one of my recent experiences--whilst hitting my giant pad propped up against
a brick wall in an empty parking lot, during a thunder shower, at some rediculous hour...was skidding
my hand off the pad and bloodying it off the brick. village idiot that i am, i used it as an agro builder
and just kept going, blood all over my shirt.

i'm sure there's a better way, but now it's less critical to me. at some point i want one of those
ball bearing filled thingies that are connected from the ceiling and floor. a wee bit of movement,
and bowling ball hardness. i use a really hard pad that gives like week wall once a week--and
softer pads throughout the week.

was that TMI

That's an interesting question. Not got alot of time, so just a few thoughts here ...
Obviously there is something very natural about balling the hand into a fist - little kids do it when they get mad, I guess it's an in built reaction, there fore fun to train.
Of course this is unfortunate when considering the fragility of the bones in the hand and the instability of the wrist in this position, as we know .... hence the palm strike.
Big objects are definitely easier to hit with fists - pad, bags etc I'm assuming because you don't have to pull the fingers back out of the way, as in a palm strike. It's hard to pull the fingers back to 90 degrees on some angles especially on a bigger pad or bag, at least that's what I've found so the strike angle is wrong.
Now palms are most useful to the head - (no point in using them as body strikes apart from the groin perhaps, unless you are using them to shove) and the reason that they work so well there is that they are the right shape and size to do the work. Unfortunately there are not many pads made the appropriate 'head' size, though the ones Mick Coup uses are the closest approximation and work well (made by MTG I think).
So perhaps this is a case where a new training device has to be made? My eskrima teacher fabricated many hanging training tools that swung erratically. Perhaps what would work here would be a hardish, heavy, head sized pad, suspended from the ceiling with a short length of rubber tubing added to make it bob and move a bit more. It would have to have enough height so you could chase it some as you hit it.
OK out of time .....

yeah man, just hit eachother hands with open hands, or the fore head, its more natural

ok so I was wondering if I was the only one who found hitting a heavy bag with palms slightly awkward.

Guess I'm not...

I've attributed it to the fact that we know where, on a person, we'd like to land the open palm. Somewhere on the head ( ) preferably chin/jaw or temple area. It feels natural, to me, to throw this like a hook, coming in from the side a bit. I think the problem with the heavy bag or even pads is that they simply aren't shaped and positioned like an attackers head would be

I'm thinking that one of those 'punching dummy's' that are shaped like the upper torso and head of a person would work a lot better. My only reservation with this is that if might scare the crap out of my fiance in the middle of the night when she forgets it's in the spare room

D.M.B. wrote:

I'm thinking that one of those 'punching dummy's' that are shaped like the upper torso and head of a person would work a lot better. My only reservation with this is that if might scare the crap out of my fiance in the middle of the night when she forgets it's in the spare room

naw, that's not what would scare the crap out of her...what would scare the crap out of her is if--in the
middle of the night she found you chatting with 'Bob' the punch-dummy. Laughing like he just said something really witty. Maybe having a cuddle after a particularly vicious workout



all kidding aside. i want to buy one of the things myself--they're bloody expensive when you consider
what they look like...about 300 quid in the UK...don't even want to think about what that would mean in the US and Canada--that's probably scarier than 'avin-a-cuddle-with-it'

same when i looked into the protective suits like what whatsisname wears--i'll have to come back and fill this in but Richie features his vids now and again. the one i checked out was 1500 US dollars.
uhm, maybe i'll just pay a college kid to take some shots for half that

Russ the Muss wrote:

D.M.B. wrote:

I'm thinking that one of those 'punching dummy's' that are shaped like the upper torso and head of a person would work a lot better. My only reservation with this is that if might scare the crap out of my fiance in the middle of the night when she forgets it's in the spare room

naw, that's not what would scare the crap out of her...what would scare the crap out of her is if--in the
middle of the night she found you chatting with 'Bob' the punch-dummy. Laughing like he just said something really witty. Maybe having a cuddle after a particularly vicious workout



all kidding aside. i want to buy one of the things myself--they're bloody expensive when you consider
what they look like...about 300 quid in the UK...don't even want to think about what that would mean in the US and Canada--that's probably scarier than 'avin-a-cuddle-with-it'

same when i looked into the protective suits like what whatsisname wears--i'll have to come back and fill this in but Richie features his vids now and again. the one i checked out was 1500 US dollars.
uhm, maybe i'll just pay a college kid to take some shots for half that

am I that transparent? how did you know I'd be cuddling with it.... I feel so exposed...



do you mean the 'high gear' stuff Tony Blauer uses? That stuff is crazy, but yes, very expensive!

I'm wondering if hockey equipment would work.... hell I've got lots of that lol!

DMB///
"do you mean the 'high gear' stuff Tony Blauer uses? That stuff is crazy, but yes, very expensive!

I'm wondering if hockey equipment would work.... hell I've got lots of that lol!"

THATS IT...TONY BLAUER...and blauer just happened to be the gutteral noise i made when i saw
the prices, followed by 'SNARK'.
HOCKEY EQUIPMENT IS A GREAT IDEA...maybe i'll try the local thrift for sports equipment.

cheers

Richie, I thought you were an advocate of pad training?

Quote :

THATS IT...TONY BLAUER...and blauer just happened to be the gutteral noise i made when i saw
the prices, followed by 'SNARK'.

Quote :

Richie, I thought you were an advocate of pad training?

yessir and I still am... an advocate of replicating the movements/skillsets used in a fight as closely as possible in your training, which, to date, as far as I can tell necessitates the use of pads but I keep the mind open

... Ive always been of a view padwork needs to be heavily balanced with slow shot placement drills ( Tony Blauer's range drill and Rich Dimitiri's Shredder drills) and gettin the pads on and tearin it up a bit - I think even more so in the case of palms - in a seminar or lesson you will see me spend more time on shot placement and the (safe) application of pressure with some light protective gear on than bangin away on the pads

I've never really shown how I teach in a seminar or one on one, so there is really no way you could know that though

Now I want to train... and there is no one to hit

Richie, okay thats what i thought, I guess I misread one of your posts,thanks of the clarification and I agree a good mixture of training methods and tools are best.Thanks

From the thread "take that head offline"

Quote :

last one on one session I did was with a 6ft 7 guy... he hurt his wrist palming the thai pad until I realised I had to tip the pad up to replicate the slope of the skull he would be hitting DOWN (from his height) into

The wrist being at the end of it's range of motion and the forces at play always made me uneasy about palm strikes. I've never liked pulling the hand back and up for striking. Seems exposed to Murphy and it doesn't feel as if there is as much oomph in it as with a punch. What I've been doing instead is angling the hand inward something like 45 degrees, instead of pointing straight up, and contacting with the area of the palm at the end of the ulna bone. This seems to get the proper power-generation chain going just like with good punching, the mechanics appear to be the same. Somewhat circular, although tight and staight strikes. Like jabs and right crosses. All the power of a punch seems to be there. And in relation to the quoted text above, the wrist is only about halfway at the range of it's motion. You might want to use a thin glove of some kind when training though as it is easier to skin your hand when hitting stuff over time.

Making a fist seems to be a strong instinct. Not just among this species. Other primates do it as well. But they do not punch. I do not think we do it because it is an effective weapon, although we can utilize them as such to a degree. From the few chimp attacks on humans I've heard about, a common injury has been mangled hands, from when the chimp latches on and begins dragging them around. If you were a chimp, that would suck. You wouldn't be much of a tree climber or anything. In general terms, your survivability in the jungle would sink. I suspect that it is mostly a protective mechanism.

Quote :

What I've been doing instead is angling the hand inward something like 45 degrees, instead of pointing straight up, and contacting with the area of the palm at the end of the ulna bone. This seems to get the proper power-generation chain going just like with good punching, the mechanics appear to be the same. Somewhat circular, although tight and staight strikes. Like jabs and right crosses. All the power of a punch seems to be there. And in relation to the quoted text above, the wrist is only about halfway at the range of it's motion. You might want to use a thin glove of some kind when training though as it is easier to skin your hand when hitting stuff over time.

yeah I get you, interesting

the palm and fist thing has been cookin on the back burner for a bit for me now... Im goin to keep gatherin evidence tho for the time being

I have found it is not really needed to pull the hand all the way back to do a good palm strike,just enough to clear enough palm to hit the target well does the trick for me.

RichardB wrote:

What I've been doing instead is angling the hand inward something like 45 degrees, instead of pointing straight up, and contacting with the area of the palm at the end of the ulna bone.

that's what i do as well, it spares my shoulders a bit--puts the strain on the triceps, guards my wrists, etc...one of my arms enjoys the full belt-range, the other less coordinated one sort of pikes more with less build up, relying more on my back/waist/legs for full affect. tweeking--tweeking--tweeking.

if it ain't broke, don't fix it...if it is, improvise

RichB - I agree with the hand angle thing .... which seems why it does not work so well on a target that is large, like a heavy bag etc, where you end up having to do the pull back thing.
Do you have any more info on the balling hands thing all us monkeys do?
I am wondering where we learned to hit with our fists? Are we all conditioned from watching boxing matches, prize fighting, movies etc? Or is it a natural way to strike?
Who did it first? Where did it come from? Anyone know?

There might be more information on making fists out there, I haven't searched extensively for it so it is hard to say. But biology and genetics seem like a more likely source than any social and environmental factors. Camels, horses and many others kick. In lieu of something sharp to stick into the offending creature, just generally throwing out a limb with some force seems pretty common. If making a fist is a protective mechanism, and you combine it with this, it begins to form a picture.

The other apes may not be punching, but they do use the hammer fist type of strikes. If you're crawling around on the floor, and want to throw out a limb, the hammerfist may be the easiest way for an ape to develop power. That we punch the way we do may be an effect of the way we stand and walk around. In crude terms, we punch the way an animal like, say a bull or similar, may stomp.

The only problem is, the more effective we get at punching, the more likely it is that the bones of the hand and wrist will take damage. If we had hooves for hands we'd be wicked punchers! But useless for most other things...

Hmmmm stomping? Interesting idea.
I agree about hammerfists ... very natural. I am also wondering about weapons, how holding them in your hands may influence empty hand .... Imagines hitting something with rock in hand or swinging wooly mammoth femur .....