Some footage from yesterday's seminar

Thought I'd share this with you guys.



Sorry for poor sound quality. My low voice is rubbish for recording videos too.

The subject-matter relates quite well to what we've been talking about in the knife defence thread too.

NICE drill, and you have a good rapport. i make my students do this drill minimally once a week.
it's essentially what i've been calling drive backs. i love it because it cultivates forward drive, sticking, and agro. i do it with a bigger pad, and try and get folks to leave no dignity behind for intensity--across the court, then switch pad holders and back the other way for the partner. after ten of these, all are moody, etc...on day one, i almost always catch someone way off guard...i knocked one of the hard core guys off of his feet on Thursday, which is why we do it on the grass, along side a basketball court.

nice class. my kind of fun

hey bro nice clip!

getting them on the back foot and all that and dont stop!

5star

i dont teach this to my students this way on a pad, because try this on a good boxer, or wing chun guy, he is not affraid to punch back, so i believe more in sparring, or scenario with resistance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP6N3zuyLaA&feature=related


i dont dig hitting pads so much but thats my opinion

Russ the Muss wrote:

NICE drill, and you have a good rapport. i make my students do this drill minimally once a week.
it's essentially what i've been calling drive backs. i love it because it cultivates forward drive, sticking, and agro. i do it with a bigger pad, and try and get folks to leave no dignity behind for intensity--across the court, then switch pad holders and back the other way for the partner. after ten of these, all are moody, etc...on day one, i almost always catch someone way off guard...i knocked one of the hard core guys off of his feet on Thursday, which is why we do it on the grass, along side a basketball court.

nice class. my kind of fun

Your class sounds fun!

Was a nice group. Total beginners. Had them do a minute of continuous palm striking also. When they were done and out of breath, I told them to stay standing up straight and try to control their breathing. I reminded them that the sensation of being out of breath and with shaky hands replicated the adrenal dump symptoms pretty well. I got them to imagine having to talk their way out of situation or having to pre-empt from that feeling.

Quote :

[quote="chulodog"]i dont teach this to my students this way on a pad, because try this on a good boxer, or wing chun guy, he is not affraid to punch back, so i believe more in sparring, or scenario with resistance

Yeah, trained guys who are used to getting jabbed in the face have less of the flinch reflex. Luckily (or hopefully) it's not usually trained guys who start fights. And whether they go on the back foot or not, the idea is to deliver concussive blows anyway.

Also, it wasn't conveyed in the clip, but we were teaching those strikes in a pre-emptive context. So they would launch these strikes from a position of submissiveness - playing up to the idea that they are meek, untrained victims and then.... BAM BAM BAM BAM.

Quote :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP6N3zuyLaA&feature=related

This was actually a nice clip. Every now and then I see a clip like this and regain respect for wing chun.

Quote :

i dont dig hitting pads so much but thats my opinion

I have a feeling you've just said something quite controversial there, brother. I don't know any other way of developing proper striking attributes (explosiveness, power etc). Unless your mates let you smack them up? Tyson, Bruce Lee, Ali, every single UFC fighter... ever. They all hit pads everyday. A lot.

darktim99 wrote:

hey bro nice clip!

getting them on the back foot and all that and dont stop!

5star

Cheers

Nice work Tacpro

synchronistically covers a few things im shooting in 2 new DVDs tommorow

you got mention on the podcast, did you hear it?

I have a feeling you've just said something quite controversial there, brother

there s no controversial in this. this is a forum about streetfighting, not about boxing. if you can get your student aggresivly hit the bag and pads yes he can hit the pads aggresively and hard. maby now hes starting to feel himself a tough guy. good for him.

believe me tactpro, i knew on know some really good streetfighters, some off them never had any training before, but they are so sharp and fast even i dont like to fight them with my 25 years training in ma, and mma.

i dont say we dont train with a slam man, but thats a little bit different. still not so important.

in holland are very good kickboxing schools and they come train here from all over the world, and i trained in a lot of the so called champion schools, and they dont use pads a lot. just techniques and sparring, sparring, sparring.

hitting a pad is much more easy than hitting a opponent who s not scared of you

Yeah, trained guys who are used to getting jabbed in the face have less of the flinch reflex. Luckily (or hopefully) it's not usually trained guys who start fights.

in what kind of world you live in?

who likes fighting fights who likes training trains

only from fighting you can learn fighting
only from training you become better in training

you have some fighting experience yourself?

A discussion'ish thread between Chulo and Tacpro, but I'm just going to add
I'm not really convinced you both are as diametrically opposed and the wee bit
of edgy'ness implies.

I hit the pads--ALOT, but i'm not so much counting on them as accuracy when i
do...i'm nailing them and visualizing because when i'm hitting a person, the luxory
of not holding back at all is not there when training. i'm applying my own pressure
to train what my limits are for contact--when i use bare hands and a more firm
surface. i'm developing agro and using it as an ugly moving meditation.

then the moving pad drills is re'instilling how a moving target is drastically different,
and take work--or working for it. i'm taking a single attribute and exploiting it--just
like i was in a lab. i'm also desensitizing a real person so they're nothing but a pad
to me [strange as that sounds].

but as Chulo says, hitting a person takes getting past a place emotionally. taking what
you've both written in the past, you both draw from real experiences--any more than that:
-how many
-how much pressure
-weapons?
-etc...

not going into that. i'm answering the question to cut off the antagonism at the pass--as
much as i can. it's wasted energy.

my humble opinion, having real pressure from which to draw from. is that drills may not
be the final emotional hurdle we all wish it would be...but in the absense of the kind of
real and regular pressure that we'd all need to be on our game, it can--when in abundance
and with repetition, dilute the nerves of uncertainty and certainly help. whether it's makiwara,
pads, guys with body suits who move around. if we only relied on actual fighting, we'd probably
be police or bouncers--on one end, or criminals, on the other. it's really hard to get all your
training in reality. it's easier to fill the gaps with pads, etc... but i do think that in the absense of
a little real pressure, we end up having to fill the void with mountains of training to have our
subconscious really feel comfortably convinced. that's why i playfully call what i teach brainwashing.
i've taken a kid with limited experience, a bit of natural agro, and signs of uninhibited impulse control
issues, and managed to get out of him success in a real test. he had some natural predispositions
going for him, but not experience. he took what i told him on faith and applied it and did okay.
some of the others who've had fights already, it's easier for them as they have a sensibility for it
before hand and things more readily click.

training is not fighting, but some training is better than other training. i teach, in a sense, a beat down.
it has it's affect on folks. if training didn't do anything, none of us would do it or teach it. simulation is
not the same as real, but it's not water slipping through the cracks either. i try and mix drills, with pads,
with rough and real grappling--hoping that the flavor can come out of the grappling where it might be too much for the average student if we handled the striking that way. the balance is not that bad.

to re'iterate, i'm not convinced either of you are dimetrically opposed, but with the subject of fighting amongst 'fighters'...it's easy to get derailed into antagonism where written threads are concerned. i hope this helped, but as always...ASSUME NOTHING

russ you are allways the most wise man on the forum! haha, respect

With the words of David Hume; "Truth springs from argument among friends." So long as it is good-natured and sticks to generating constructive information on the subject, it's what forums are for.

Raising a question about what how a trained fighter would deal with something, as opposed to an unskilled asshole, is legitimate. Closest thing to the attack in question is the straight blast. Here is a clip of something like that in a sport context.



If launched at a point where the fight has degraded into a duel, and the guy is not wide open to it, it looks bad. In one instance above, one guy got a half-decent barrage going, but the opponent - ready with a guard and all - just kind of covered up and seemed mostly unaffected. Paul vunak's take on it was that you should get the guy good with a punch first, then if the opening is there, straight blast him, from which you might get three or four good shots in. The ultimate purpose being to get in there to knee, elbow and headbutt the hell out of him. But... primarily, the evil plan in question here is to launch it pre-emptively. 0 to 100% and keep going.

Regarding the drill in the clip Vs. people you can meet in a fight. Some have training, others do not. Who the enemy will be and their quality as fighters is an unknown. From the self-protection perspective of not picking fights oneself, it means they have picked the fight with you, which means that they have at least that much confidence in their ability to defeat you.

I think it makes sense to train for the top end of what you are most likely to face, primarily anyway. But the problem is, you never know who you'll run into. He could be a bag of hot air, or an unbelievable fighter. Plan A if the opportunity is there should be to never give the enemy a chance whatsoever. Get the drop on him (or plan B; do whatever the hell you need to get that one-sided beating going) and keep the pressure on until you've seen it through to the end.

The drill in the clip makes for a crude entry point and framweork for all that. Watching new students do stuff always makes it look a bit bad, but let a guy with explosive and powerful punches (there is no reason a good boxer couldn't start off like that is there?) launch that on someone who is not expecting it and he should be well on his way to administering a beating they can't get out of, unless he should do somethig dumb like stopping.

Of course if you want to use the Beta-8 model of the fight it is only the first phase of the attack. The closest approximation I could find on youtube of "something like what we're looking for" was good old Jake the muss.



He starts off with hooks, but I've seen a guy sent on his ass and probably handed his very own concussion from a surprise barrage of straight punches to the head, it'd work too. It happened in the ring no less, the guy he fought was just a sneaky asshole. They were supposed to go easy and technical...

Jake the Muss is explicitly the philosophical father of the Beta-8 system... to that extent does it qualify as one of the rare Maori Martial arts?







was thinking about this thread on a long drive today to pick up Peter who I shot the "Knife Offence Apllications" DVD with today - actually was thinking about the limits of practising palms on pads specifically and how its "better" to do them either slow like in a "shot placement drill" or fast with some (not full) contact onto a partner wearing a helmet- pads are good for punching but not great for palms

Ill start a new thread eh?

"too much weights not enough speed work... useless prick"- what a line!

Doing pad work instills good body mechanics, builds the specific muscles needed, increases strenght speed and reflexes, its benefits seem clear to me.

One more point, what tacpro is teaching is not sport figthing or even fighting per sea, it is self defence, in other words how to deal with non consensual violence.In a ring with rules against a trained guy I would probably lose, but if the same trained guy attacked me in the street then I am going to rip his face off, its not the same thing.

Danite wrote:

In a ring with rules against a trained guy I would probably lose, but if the same trained guy attacked me in the street then I am going to rip his face off, its not the same thing.

i like the way that sounds--just wicked

anyone else find palms on pads and bags a bit... well... "shit"?

not saying the drill shown is shit, its not, Im talking general now- Ive foind palming heavy bags useless, palming thai pads ok, but palm striking a partner with a helmet on in abit of pressure drill or doing shot placement to be best


anyone else get that?

whats so different about palm when everything else can be worked on bags and pads?

chulodog wrote:

Yeah, trained guys who are used to getting jabbed in the face have less of the flinch reflex. Luckily (or hopefully) it's not usually trained guys who start fights.

in what kind of world you live in?

who likes fighting fights who likes training trains

only from fighting you can learn fighting
only from training you become better in training

you have some fighting experience yourself?

It seems you've misunderstood my post, Chulo.

There are only two points made in that sentence...

1) people who do a lot of sparring don't flinch as strongly when the palms come flying at their face. (This is actually agreeing with your previous statement.

2) Hopefully it wont be a trained kickboxer who tries to attack me.

So I think that the world I'm living in is actually the same as yours. Padwork, sparring... it's all good. Not sure what you thought I said, but I think the only point we disagree on is that personally, I'd never choose sparring over padwork. Not for self protection anyway.

Richard Grannon wrote:

anyone else find palms on pads and bags a bit... well... "shit"?

not saying the drill shown is shit, its not, Im talking general now- Ive foind palming heavy bags useless, palming thai pads ok, but palm striking a partner with a helmet on in abit of pressure drill or doing shot placement to be best


anyone else get that?

whats so different about palm when everything else can be worked on bags and pads?

Pads for trainingg the 0% to 100% explosiveness thing... in a pre-emptive context. Slow shot placement for 'getting a feel for it' and accuracy. Beating up mate with helmet on for simulation and again, 'getting a feel for it'.

I reckon they're all necessary.

Richard Grannon wrote:

Nice work Tacpro

you got mention on the podcast, did you hear it?

I did. Thank you! Made me fall all special. I only wish I had put my real name as my username! In fact, I may just do that....

Quote :

Pads for trainingg the 0% to 100% explosiveness thing... in a pre-emptive context. Slow shot placement for 'getting a feel for it' and accuracy. Beating up mate with helmet on for simulation and again, 'getting a feel for it'.

yeah, preemptive context seems best, real simple stuff even repeated shots, anything else becomes on the pads for me

yes, if for example, you were promoting yourself as an instructor or your website or your club you could have these things as your username and/or put them in your signature, this forum is growing you never know who might see you- you are London based too ?

no problem tactpro

it wasnt ment to be personal, im think your a nice guy

only the way of training remind me of some schools with teachers who never fought themselfes before.

and they are happy to aggresivly hit a pad.

but they can have difficultis doing the pad work on a fighter.

thats wy i like to train on a moving target, who can tell you where to hit, or even give an opening, and say differently, so you have to watch , think and hit, in a second, or he hits you.

im sorry man, im putting a vid online also, and you can crack me down

a student of me is getting a cam

Once someone has done their basic training on the bags and pads then by all means start doing realistic training with moving partners with head gear at full speed and just enough force to "make the point"

Russ the Muss, I see you are a man of good judgement and discrminating taste!