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 I know it's cool, but Is it right?

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Sharif H



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PostSubject: I know it's cool, but Is it right?   Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:58 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP_HlNGfcR4

Here's some really cool footage of an 8year old MMA kid who is obviously VERY talented.

But as the father of very boisterous toddler, I often wonder about the morality of training kids to this extent. I mean, I really want him to get involved in martial arts, but I would worry about him using such 'proper' training on other kids. I've seen a 6 year old clinch and knee another kid in a play fight (his dad got him into muay thai) and the other kid got pretty hurt.

So I often wonder if starting them in softer traditional martial art might be good for instilling discipline and then later teaching him harder combative stuff (this is the route I took and probably the route most you here took).

I mean, check out the power in this kid's strikes, it's great to see but.... what if he clocks another kid in the head with one of they thai kicks?
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Sharif H



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PostSubject: Re: I know it's cool, but Is it right?   Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:02 pm

My other point... what would this do to such a young ego? A kid so young basically knowing without doubt that he could kick any kid's ass in school. a bit of insecurity and vulnerability in childhood often leads to a 'successful' adult (in MA and other things)
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thugsage
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PostSubject: Re: I know it's cool, but Is it right?   Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:28 pm

Tacpro,
really good points. concerning getting kids overly competitive early on--i've known
a few scarred adults who've had great losses due to injury, etc...who were slatted to
be the next great 'whatever' in sports. and i get what you're saying about slowly
getting them in the water, so to speak. not full emergence in pugilism.

having said all that. if a kid is gifted and wants it...personally i'd give it to him [my son
or otherwise], but due to the age it would have to come part and parcel with tremendous
demands, consequences if abused, and an all round short leash. morals and check-ins, and
all the rest of what should be proper parenting [whatever that is exactly lol! ]

as for let downs, i suppose one can make sure they come in enough other areas to help
mold a balanced young man/woman, and beyond.

i had to honestly ask myself if i'd give this type of training to my son if he was gifted...
and wanted it.

my answer was a resounding 'yup'. but as i am with him already, i make sure daily i'm not
raising a right little arsehole.

i suppose if that dad had some sense--and he might, he'd teach him losing is learning. that kid
looks like he might have to be shown losing regularly by older and bigger training partners.
his own peers would pale by comparison.
and if i expected a child to properly defend himself against a larger kid--or an adult predator,
i'm just not convinced i wouldn't join in the band wagon and equip him with the necessary skills.

answering the question honestly, more than anything. nothing is a perfect scenario i reckon.

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Danite



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PostSubject: Re: I know it's cool, but Is it right?   Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:17 pm

Well " baby face assassin" doesnt help much.In my opinion this childs brain which is in the process of being wired is making some highly aggressive connections, that could lead to a permanent dispositon that could land this person in a whole lot of trouble later on in life.If the boy has alot of :juice" then I would get him into contact sports and start him out with Judo.When he was a teenager and more matured and correctly wired then I would get him into the MMA stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: I know it's cool, but Is it right?   Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:32 am

makes sense--and sensible analysis. but i've just known too many well adusted folks that were in
TKD, etc...from 5, 8, and so on...and at least several absolute dickheads that were into main stream stuff like wrestling and rugby.[kids that beat people up etc...]

so while it makes sense on paper, and in general...i'm not convinced as to the direness in general terms, and don't really have enough to go on even for the kid in the clip. he's being fashioned for
sports glory after all.

i think at the end of the day, good parenting has to be factored in. i've known kids who've been raised getting their first shotgun, etc...but the ritual was respected as a hunting tool and not a murderous weapon, etc... maybe i'm projecting, or the only one with a son. but to me i don't think it's that hard to make sure he's got a level head whilst training.

maybe [like my swami used to say during disagreements], we're both right and we're both wrong
lol!

and as a character assessment, when i looked at the clip...i basically saw a friendly fat dad training his son--who seemed to be having fun with him doing it. i've known kids who went sour...and almost without exception, they were latch key kids with absent, or short tempered, parents, etc...

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Sharif H



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PostSubject: Re: I know it's cool, but Is it right?   Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:24 am

Russ, I like your way of thinking.

It would actually be my dream come true (although I'll not push for it) if my son turns out to be as talented as this kid in martial arts, but becomes equally talented in respect and morality (as he will be 'trained' in by me regardless of martial arts). Took me many years to become somebody who is very confident in combatives but has a deep sense of respect for all life, people and my environment. If my son can learn that during childhood, that would be great!

Danite, I hear you on the baby faced assassin thing. As much effort as I would put into helping my son condition his body for martial arts, I wouldn't start conditioning his mind for combat until much later.

Of course, this is all assuming my son gets into martial arts... he might not be interested at all. He's actually showing signs of becoming a dancer! Since birth he's always been one of these babies who does all the physical stuff early and is naturally very strong (if you held his hands, he could stand by himself at 3 weeks) and lately he's seems to be really into music and he's got some cool dance moves.

Anyway, I'm going off on one like all proud fathers do... Time will tell. But one thing I'll make clear to him: "It's either dancing or fighting. No combining... none of that capoeira shite!"

Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: I know it's cool, but Is it right?   Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:45 pm

Tacpro,
nice answer. i had to laugh at how much we have in common. my son is either going into the theatre
or dancing. fits your son's m/o to the letter. i often laugh with my wife [quietly] whilst being supportive of my son's interests, and say, "fook me...my son's got ballet written all over him...and my little daughter just exudes 'fighter' ". i'll naturally support them both. i'm glad they're both physical.

my wife was into ballet for over 10 years before settling with me [a distant 2nd Razz ], and i was the martial arts guy scratch

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PostSubject: Re: I know it's cool, but Is it right?   Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:04 pm

i dont see any problem, because its just ma, and a kid with conficence is often not a bully type.

but if he is,.. he stimulate other children to train also, or become more clever and stab him if hes a little older and a big asshole.

but its only a propogandy type video of a proud father.
yeah, and lower class people will allways teach their kids wrong habits.. its as old as the way to rome
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PostSubject: Re: I know it's cool, but Is it right?   Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:03 am

Chulo said///

i dont see any problem, because its just ma, and a kid with conficence is often not a bully type.

but its only a propogandy type video of a proud father.


yup!

only point i 'beg to differ' was
"and lower class people will allways teach their kids wrong habits"

i've always lived right on the line between lower and middle class. the fixation of fathers
like this--assuming he's in the lower class at all, is putting a tough exterior to him--street
camo...the outer garment of a tough kid. there are many nice folks with these mindsets,
and you'll have a tough time telling them apart from the genuine tough nut arseholes. blending
is a priority.

also, if it's what you're into, you teach your son this as well. possibly upper class read more
to there kids, but i wouldn't want to make a bet on that either. although i've known a great number
of upper class kids who'll do more mentally stimulating stuff with their sons--possibly the physical stuff will be camping or soccer. and conversely, the low income bracket playing sports and boxing, etc with dad--MORE OFTEN, but not as a rule. i was boxing when i was 5. i got my first bloody nose with the neighbors all watching my first match. i bled all the way home lol! trickling a path of blood to my house up the road. my home town was on the line that included many middle and lower class sensibilities. i'm basing my opinions on my experiences BTW

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PostSubject: Re: I know it's cool, but Is it right?   Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:04 am

yeah, but what i mean was the most good fighters come from the lower class, simply because they have to fight in their neigbour hood.

if you come from high class, theres not a need to know to fight if youre young.

and just look in a lower class neighbour hood, fathers drinking beer with tattoos in their garden, shouting, fighting etc.

yeah, in this envirement its cool to have a 8 year old mma fighter..

and yeah, lower class people learn the kids to copy their behaviour.. and the kid has to fight to get out of the simple mind set.

hey but for fighting its no problem to have a simple mindset, just knock the other guy out
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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Re: I know it's cool, but Is it right?   Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:32 pm

good thread, good points nothing to add, but if I may just step in in my moderator role and steer this away from some rocky and pointless ground

there is a world of difference between "working class" and what Chulo is describing as "lower class"

working class is "lower" than middle class by the "class system" for sure, but Chulo is talking about proper scumbags

3 generations of family on benefits types, parasites


the notion of "class" is different in UK than it is in America and I imagine different again in the Netherlands

different in subtle but important ways

anyway Im confident Chulo wasnt talking about working class people, who get up every day and WORK but rather proper scumbags who... well... breed... fight... steal.... and steal oxygen that they have no right to.
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PostSubject: Re: I know it's cool, but Is it right?   Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:46 pm

Richie,
that makes sense--Chulo's comment, since the rest was so balanced. my linguistics is turning progressively american where the three expressions: lower; middle; upper...are only about income.
feel free to continue to be a cultural broker for ex'patriot's club lol!

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Danite



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PostSubject: Re: I know it's cool, but Is it right?   Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:11 am

I still say its amistake to induce such levels of aggression into a childs brain.better to get him into contact sports where his aggression will be channled to agreater good, thus giving him a better concept of things.
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PostSubject: Re: I know it's cool, but Is it right?   Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:48 pm

Sports seem on many levels to be abstractions of hunting and dueling rituals. Aggression is a natural component. I doubt it will do damage to go through it, even in their pure forms. People have done so for ages. We are animals. But without some good upbringing and checking the confidence with reality his ego may warp. Fundamentally though this appears like a good thing for the kid, so long as they don't do that thing where they go hardcore competitive with the kid. That's adult stuff.

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Danite



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PostSubject: Re: I know it's cool, but Is it right?   Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:14 pm

Thats very true, but my concern is this.That childs brain is being wired and the boys "state of being" is being formed.If he is constantly exposed to adrenaline and accessing aggressive states, it might become so deeply ingrained in his psychology that it might preclude a more normal and balanced form of development.Sports allows for aggression to be put into a social context that seeks a higher purpose than its own satisfaction.Personally I would wait untill I got a young boy into those levels of figthing aggression.
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Sharif H



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PostSubject: Re: I know it's cool, but Is it right?   Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:03 am

Danite wrote:
Thats very true, but my concern is this.That childs brain is being wired and the boys "state of being" is being formed.If he is constantly exposed to adrenaline and accessing aggressive states, it might become so deeply ingrained in his psychology that it might preclude a more normal and balanced form of development.Sports allows for aggression to be put into a social context that seeks a higher purpose than its own satisfaction.Personally I would wait untill I got a young boy into those levels of figthing aggression.

I know what you are saying, but RichardB has got me thinking. It's true - we are animals. This is something that I remind people of regularly. It seems that I just forgot to apply that truth to my situation. So now i'm thinking that contact fighting sports for young males IS probably a good thing. I mean, god knows, most men are such fannies these days. Seriously it's one my biggest 'issues' with modern society. I'll always teach my son about love and compassion, but in the words of Stephen Hayes...

It is one thing to shrink back docilely in terror while pretending to choose acquiescence willfully. It is altogether a different thing to choose gentleness freely because, having attained the skills of devastation, one has removed the fear of displeasing others. Only the truly powerful, or those who have nothing to lose, can be totally gentle with a free and unhindered heart, for they are invulnerable


In other words, I'll also teach him how to kick some arse like a man. I can't deny that what allows me to be confident and self-assured enough to be kind and gentle to everybody (well, most people) who I encounter, is the reassuring truth that sits in the back of my mind that I could probably kill them if I wanted to. Does that make me weird? Suspect
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PostSubject: Re: I know it's cool, but Is it right?   Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:18 am

tacpro,

uninhibited--yet discriminating and thoughtful...couldn't agree with you more mate. i grew up around sports violence[boxing], domestic violence[heavy handed alcoholic father], and peer-pressure-tests with regularity[bullying not isolated to me but prevelent]...to the extent that my mother sent me to live overseas. her peaceful nature and level head was enough to keep me straight. all the exposure did for me was make me not shocked by it if things went there. i used to know real threats from softies--and not react accordingly. i have memories of being punched by someone i had previously thought of as a [forgive the expression] poof, and thinking something like, "i'm not fighting this guy, there's no point". i'd be more likely at this late age to make someone pay for landing one on me unexpectedly Razz

i guess thats why i dont budge on the subject scratch

put another way--to use a metaphor. kids are indeed like sponges, taking on whatever water is nearby [peaceful lake'ish water, or violent rapids]. but as sponges they'll also go dry from the influences in the absense of said fluid. in the year that i spent away from it, i turned into a right softie--fatty and all. talk about docile. it was a concern even to my mum--who bought me a weight set to make my outward appearance at least not look like such a target Razz at some point i intellectualized that i was having more trouble keeping that inward fire burning, and becoming more nervous of the unknown [fighting]. it just doesn't take long for this to happen. that's why i took up martial arts, to artificially attempt to rekindle that fire that originally came from experiences early on. not sure if i was successful though Razz

even working security for 12 years didn't do it as the violence was really few and far between. it's like a hot bath, the less you add warm water periodically...the more likely it is to simple cool off. my training now is suited to kindle that fire. i can feel glimmers of it and know i'm on the right track.

okay...back to dad-duty jocolor

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PostSubject: Re: I know it's cool, but Is it right?   Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:59 pm

tacpro, I have no problem with kids learning martial arts with a few points.Contact non martial arts sports can give a child the same time of outlet at a young age.Team sports helps socislise not only the child but his understanding of the uses of aggression.One could also start a child with something like Judo etc.Once the childs brain has been properly wired when he is a bit older say a young teenager then yes by all means let him learn combat style martial arts.One cannot make a rule from an exception.It is true some people are exposed to violence ta an early age and come out of ti okay.many others dont.if a child gets used to constant aggressive states of being at a young age, he might not be able to contextualise it and it might become his default position.People must distinguish between their experiances and desires and delay their own gratification for what might be best for a child in any given situation.A child is a child, it goes through developmental stages, best to respect nature and work with it.its true we have an animal side to us, but we have also trancended the animal world and rule it , because we were able to transcend pure instinct and apply reason.Because aggression is natural to humans doesnt mean it should be given free range, rather it must be channled and harnessed for a greater good.if not then results are called war.I think this much surely must be clear to humans after some 6000 years of recorded history.
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PostSubject: Re: I know it's cool, but Is it right?   Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:20 pm

the purpose of sports started as a cathartic excercise--a mock war, a pressure
release. just as sports combat will do this. it will take natural agressive tendencies
and create an insular world for the purpose of channeling such impulses. like making
a hat that one takes off. a proper context for our animal nature.

i've known way more peaceful pugilists--for the comfort with what others consider
a question left unanswered...namely, 'can i fight?'

conversely i've known quite a bit of rugby/american-football types who have not answered
this inner question and as a result actually have gotten up to more mischief.
not as much an exception, but more of a rule.
even what should be a 'con' to the argument/debate, mike tyson, i believe he'd have been
a criminal teen if not channeled. in other words, he'd have gotten up to more mischief,
possibly with more than his hands--but as this is conjecture, i'll just say what he said...to
paraphrase.

"if it hadn't been for boxing, i'd have ended up in the mob...i didn't have the vision that i'd
climb this far...i'm a thug"

in the end, much of what comes out in folks was there all along. said another way. several persons
may go through similar life experiences, and each one will have a signature all his/her own in how
they choose to respond....but to re-iterate, i've met way more balanced pugilists for the confidence
they gained in the ring, etc...it's self doubt that is the evil demon waiting to turn angry d^&khead.

nothing against you mate. nothing you've said is unreasonable, it just doesn't ring 'dire'...it rings
sensational. i'd rather operate under the assumption that most will be okay, because i've known
many people who grew up with these forms of outlets. and the sh*&heads almost without exception
had nasty parents, or socio/emotional issues that could fall into the catagory of ED (emotionally disturbed)...i work in a school that has a HIGH percentage of adopted kids. i'm not seeing several
instances, i'm seeing dozens. our trouble makers have been adopted kids out of russia, etc... and
our kids who's parents are--shall we say, part of the problem, making their kids act out in the presence
of, say, a female teacher [when the mother was the problem] and a male if the inverse is true, etc...
acculteration is huge. and so there are certain kids who'll possess agro from the get-go. i've had
several in my classes. they tend to not be able to train. they have trouble with authority, etc...those
few who are able to stay, have a better chance from that whole authority thing. my one absolute
degenerate student who's been arrested several times, fazed himself out. many more who stuck it out had excellent big-picture processing, and i visited the subject with them regularly.

anyway. i'm saying all this knowing that this will be my last entry on the subject. i reckon we'll just have to agree to disagree.

peace. we have more in common than not. just one area i'm not on board with--until proven otherwise.

sunny

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PostSubject: Re: I know it's cool, but Is it right?   Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:23 pm

No problem Russ, I dont take disagreements personally.Just saysing what I would do, everyone is free to do according to their lights.Regards
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