Scenario training- Do's and Dont's

Hi Richie, this was originally an email I sent you and you asked me to post it on the forum for discussion.
It might be a good idea for a youtube blog or a DVD at some point in the future?...

Me and my training partners have added scenario training over the last couple of months in our beta-8 sessions, and we have definitely been guilty of doing too much 'method acting'if I'm honest, though we've been training to let the guy touch the fence only once-on the second touch we'll be preemptive.
In todays session we cut out all the talking and just worked quick fire rounds where the role player was aggressive from the start and was hit as he walked in mouthing off...

My question would be are there any specific drills or scenarios that you would recommend when it comes to practicing scenario training?

And could you elaborate on the problem that we face in training when we train ourselves to let the scenario go on too long via dialogue etc?

Not having done any scenario training before we've been starting with the trainer sitting or standing on his own in the gym - unbeknownst as to which type of assailant(s) to expect;

-The types of attacker we've been using are broadly-
1) Eye contact challenger- aggressive from the start.
2) Eye contact challenger- starts out friendly/innocious but becomes argumentative through the conversation.
3) Mugger all out aggressive from the start.
4) Mugger disarming approach.
5) Friend/relative (for preemptive restraints).
6) Innocent person who just wants directions and will walk off.
7) Drunk (maybe alpha male type) guy (wants to hug and kiss you!)..

The 'trainee-assailant' will pick one and walk up to the trainer acting out one of the basic types of opponent& the trainer has no idea which to expect having to react to whatever the assailant has decided to be.
If the assailant is obviously aggressive from the get go he'll line him up and hit him straight away. With drunk, and apparently friendly people he'll try and talk to them first keeping them at arms length with the fence and assertive dialogue.(Perhaps we should cut this part out and just practice mainly
quick fire drills instead?)
Usually we start the scenarios with no impact and then gear up for the rest of them, so the aggressor can try and give the trainer a crafty dig if he can sneak one in first.

I look forward to your feedback

Cheers,
Dan

Dan,

And could you elaborate on the problem that we face in training when we train ourselves to let the scenario go on too long via dialogue etc?

hiya mate,
i can't speak to the first question about what drills--reason is you seem to cover so much already.
mine are less comprehensive and just deal with immediate and dire needs of one or several. so kudos
to you.
the other question [above] does speak to me for an answer...it may not be what Richie had in mind
or be the one you're looking for.

when drills go on too long with dialogue, in my mind, they convey [whether accurate or not] some kind
of weakness in the social etiquette of 'lithmus tests' that may turn violent. your dialogue should bring
about fairly quick returns--whether of a de-escalating nature or script thought pattern interrupt or
whatever. things that go on too long are often interpreted as 'wiggle room', whereby manipulation
seems possible. maybe even perceived as some kind of backpeddling if not handled quickly--like a
sort of bluff that's been called and not cashed in.

it may not even be accurate but it may convey...and you may be setting yourself up for those patterns
too--in how it makes you feel if another's confidence appears to be building from this ongoing talk.

i've used dialogue WAY MORE than i've used fists. i think some of this works because:
-people want an out--handled correctly and de-escalation allows all to leave with their egos
-script interrupts--expectation busts derail alot of people, allowing self doubt to creap in
-feeds fears if done correctly--to the threat that wishes to hurt but not be hurt

these are the guys 'on the fence'...the ones that are giving lithmus tests to see how they'd fair. looking
for clues in how you act, and how it feeds or sucks their confidence, etc...

i've aimed at the pressure tests more for the stakes involved, but for good measure run through how to gently manipulate people in everyday situations. these dynamics actually exhist everywhere--without the full all out stakes. examples of lesser battle are at work, in your neighborhood, in your travels. it has helped me to be bold at times and quiet at times, but always keeping that part of my self seperate that essentially is a spectator and participant all at once.

it can be described as intuitive, but this has daft connotations of new agey-ness. it is more acurate to say that you have to have quick information systems that are taking in body posture changes/facial expression changes/etc...

i feel the bulk of the time, just saying something like,
"i'm going now...leave me be" says alot
or perhaps sharing a small faux insite, "look mate, i've got alot on my mind--what say we just go
our seperate ways" diverting the body chemistry outward to some pretend theme. so these are the drills
i find one can train for all day long--which is why i place a higher importance on actual combative responses.

i grew up the cultural broker, the family tension diffuser. so it stands to reason that i'm actually a bit fooken peaved to de-escalate, but do it out of good measure as it is the right thing to do. i fall on the side of feeling that people are way too self indulgent and probably need a good thrashing--but again don't explore this feeling out of being a responsible adult--however that feeling does allow me to be in the correct preperatory state to be explosive. it isn't the only way around the subject, but it's worth thinking about.

Dan,
I really like the range of the scenarios that you're training, they sound like they cover lots of ground.
My goal for self protection is to get home safely, scenario drills that emphasize deescalation
and avoidance ending up in nothing physical should be included in your drills.

Having a experienced 3rd party acting as an observer/referee is a great help for post scenario critiques.
The Senshido folk have some scenarios posted on YouTube and also offer a Scenario Replications Package
on their website.

Adamantium

aye this is a humdinger of a question

problems of too much dialogue

1. training time is usually limited and precious- if you get your mates there in the gym padded up and ready to go and you've got say 60 minutes of training time, I would say make that as physical intensive as possible to get maximimum return on investment

2. a shouting match isnt a fight and a fight isnt a shouting match
this is a bit like the "showers dont stab and stabbers dont show" maxim with the knife (its a guide not literal truth before anyone gets silly with it )
if someone is giving you verbals that is verbal assault, when they STEP TOWARDS YOU HANDS RAISED and shouting angrily that is ALWAYS to be taken to be the beginning of a physical assault - at least that is how I drill for it, no fokkker is stepping into my space making threats with their hands up, they may as well have already punched me becuase god knows I've made my decision to hit them and right soon!

do you run scenarios where you let the guy walk into you pushing you and you walk backwards about 20 paces saying over and over again " i dont want any trouble"...? because if you are what you are doing might be the most legally justifiable option but its not what makes you safest

go and look at that spanish metro stabbing knife video in the general section - how quickly can a push in the chest and an eyeball to eyeball headpeck "ego battle" become a fatal stab?
as quickly as you can raise your hand, not two seconds, not even a second, FRACTIONS of a second to a fatal wound. That noone here could of blocked/trapped/or kebabed. Sobering thought.

Anyone here with a bit of training could of preempted it though.

Back to the drill

Someone walking TOWARDS you shouting and aggressively gesturing? you have a strong case for justifiable force if you preemptively strike them. (once or twice, enough to put them down, without the riverdance on the head joe pesci routine) Why? You have reason to believe (and witnesses will back this) that youre in imminent danger.

This isnt a hardline "rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" mindset. What do the police ask you and witnesses after a fight? Who approached who?

The kid who glassed me 10 years ago got sent down simply because the DJ had seen him step up to me, rather than the other way round. So his case of "I hit him in self defence and forgot I had a glass in my hand" didnt work. Who is moving towards whom is important.

If a chap is moving towards you, he is likely to be percieved as the aggressor, especially when you have your hands up in what looks like a placatory stance.

Back to the drill

You dont want to train to have a really "long fuse". Which means continuing the drill in "verbal mode" when it has long since been overdue for you to "flick the switch"
Train for a short fuse-

One way you could do it is, say something simple "stay there" or "hands down" as you get ready to bang them (its on, its likely, get ready for it), then when their FEET move towards you bang them- keep it simple; otherwise you are letting them move into a range that is EASIER for them to steal it on you and HARDER for you to use your hands for a P.S.

My ideal range for a P.S. is just beyond the length of my arm so I can step into it, well you wont get that in a night club, kebab shop, train... so be looking to create,maintain and keep as much space as possible.

Dont backpeddal whilst allowing them to repeatedly showve your chest, what do you think is going to happen next? they will just go "ok fair enough" and walk away? you are, by doing nothin, feeding their confidence and allowing them to ramp up thier state high enouhg to get the bottle to hit you.

Pre empt. Pre empt. Pre empt.

Im a shit with drills like this, I dont even let people get started and Ive tonked them mid sentence.

"Hey I hadnt even started yet" sulkily readjusts helmet

"Yeah well I had"

Why? Because I know from bitter experience, the longer a scenario goes on for the more in favour it is for them, they are choosing the range, the territory and the time the violence whill occur whilst giving themselves a chance to "access state". No thanks. I dont think so!

Look at the "fieryness" (real word?) of lads who get into scraps all the time, go out in rough industrial towns and watch at kickout time how fast it can go off. They very rarely do the posture, preamble and chest shovy thing anymore!
"hey mate what you lookin at?"
"what? you want some do ya?!"
Like cartoons of 80's cockney holligans.
I think these are outmoded models of anti social violence- ok, not to say they dont still happen, of course they do- but its all a bit 80/90's that now.
People will just fucking pounce on you now, fill you in, film it on their mobiles and it'll be up on youtube before you get out of hospital.

At a recent seminar up in Sheffield, the lads where joking that "there is no bluddy prefight phase in t' Sheffield" because fights can just go very quick with little warning.

AND ITS THOSE ONES you want to train for, the really dangerous ones kick off from nowhere, so spend time drilling for them. Not the old "what you looking at- you want a go?" routine which really should be looking like this:

aggressor- "what you looking at?"
practitioner- pretends not to hear, walks swiftly in opposite direction as though suddenly rememberin he has left the oven on and exits stage left




Those are two points off the top of my head.

Here is a good question to ask though: Adamantium, would you say these drills you are currently doing are making you significantly more confident or not really?

Great answers, a lot of food for thought.

To answer your question Richie- a resounding yes! Probably the reason we've kept the scenario training in our sessions for this long was due to a bit of "positive road-testing" early on this year. we'd only been drilling the scenarios for a couple of weeks the last time I was in a situation and had to be pre-emptive,it seemed like I was going through the motions but almost as though I had time to think about what I was having for tea!(not the best time to think of food of course!)
- I was able to consciously line him up and hit him whilst taking in the surroundings at the same time- something I've never been able to do before.
And it definitely made me feel confident in the confrontation. Some of my training partners have had similar experiences.
I just think that it gives you the ability to think more tactically under pressure, by going through your game plan over and over beforehand..though, as you said- sometimes there isn't time to think when it just 'erupts'.
Obviously it's not the be all and endall, just another method of training like padwork/ bagwork etc, but i think it's valid.

Thanks to all of you guys who have responded it's been very interesting and me and my training buddies have a lot of info to take away from it.

Cheers, Dan

Ps) A very, very long shot I know= but I think that we possibly trained together back in circa '98

I was training at Bob's class down by the canal in Cotteridge, and I took a guy from near the Wirral called Richie, who was studying at the UCE(?) to a Vale Tudo class in Digbeth and then to the Birmingham wrestling club in Highgate afterwards, do you remember a thin whippet like youngster? If so that was me!!

(If not I think you must have a double!!)

Ah mate

your'e Dan! hahaha! yeah thats me mate

good to hear from you, I was only thinking about you the other day as people on another forum were trying to say that I had no martial arts background - they were quizzing my BJJ experience and I brought up Digbeth Vale Tudo, in fact I think it was you that introduced me to the grappling wasnt it?

We done some grappling in Bobs class didnt we? its all coming back to me now lar. I made need you to bear witness for me "Yeah I trained with him when he was a floppy haired whippet and he was poo at grappling"

didnt you get me to train with some olympic wrestling class or something? All I remember is I was shite at it

Do you still do the wrestling and the vale tudo as well? You were well into it as I recall, shame we never kept in touch


well back to your question: if the answer is YES it does make you more confident and does make you feel calmer and more switched on in a live situation then at the end of the day its doing a large portion of its job

ps its all flooding back now, you were a pretty good boxer too werent you? still doing it? I remember that old American bearded instructor who was purely into boxing and wrestling u introduced me to... ramblin now

pps Im only half jokin about you bearin witness for me, Im taking a cyber kicking at the moment

Heyyy Richie! I thought you looked familiar, and it suddenly dawned on me who you were!

Ah the halcyon days!! Yeah we did the Friday Vale Tudo class and then caught a bus over to
the Birmingham Wrestling club to do another 2 hour session of olympic Wrestling... hard it was!!
I remember us training at Bob's club too.... only excessive sugar consumption kept us going i think!

From what I remember you picked the grappling up extremely quickly, but I can't understand why you're getting flack for whether you trained with a 10th dan Mr Miyagi or not, your materials are tried, tested, effective, and well explained-thats all thats relevant isn't it?!

I still wrestle, and box here in Brum and do some bjj too, I'm glad to see you've been really successful
in the RBSD world, fair play mate

The guy who used to teach the VT, John, committed suicide last year which was unbelievable, and
the Digbeth Vale Tudo class you trained at in the old church hall was later to become the first Gracie Barra UK club in Britain, opened by Mauricio Gomes. The Birmingham Wrestling club is still going strong
Man there were some good training sessions!

gutted to hear about John, he was a good guy from what I remember

yeah, after you reminded me I remember the bus journey and trotting around Brum late at night from bus stop to bus top, its a wonder we didnt get in more trouble

Quote :

From what I remember you picked the grappling up extremely quickly, but I can't understand why you're getting flack for whether you trained with a 10th dan Mr Miyagi or not, your materials are tried, tested, effective, and well explained-thats all thats relevant isn't it?!

I brought it on myself a bit, sometimes Im not very diplomatic when I talk to people

it would be good to meet up again mate, amybe I shud be coming to Brum to do this DVD on scenarios since u asked the question? u fancy it?

That sounds great mate, It'd be cool to meet up again and I'm happy to be slapped about in the name of celluloid!
I'll have a chat with my training partners and the owner of the gym and I'll email you over the bank holiday to arrange a date.

Cheers,
Dan

Sweet!

I will just take some footage of what you would normally do in a scenario drill and then we can run through some stuff together- no pressure mate, I kind of sprang that one on you, but if you can do it it would be wicked

In addition to scenario drills where you are switched on, I also train from a simulated switched-off state. I call it the "switched-off drill" (what a fancy name).

Have one person stand with his eyes closed. The guy who plays the aggressor approaches the "blind" person and starts an attack by touching/grabbing/pushing the person. The initial contact is the trigger for the blind person to respond to the attack (open eyes, raise shoulders and hands, find and go for the attacker).

Some helpful options to increase the distraction:
- have 2 or 3 persons walk around the blind person, so that he cannot hear the direction of the attack.
- have another person talk to the blind person, asking him questions or letting him calculate simple mathematics (you will realise an increased reaction time).
- vary the attacks (initial contacts) and have the blind guy to evaluate the situation. Is the responds appropriate to the contact? Is it really an attack, or just someone you know patting your shoulder?


I found this drill very helpful to teach my students the simple first steps when being "awakend" from a switched-off state (while having deep conversations or day-dreaming...): Raise shoulders and hands and turn to the potential "threat"...

oops! Just found one of Richies Clips where a similiar switched-off drill is shown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIxPe17IeQM

But maybe I was able to give some variations of this drill...

same same mate, its all good stuff - got to work from the disadvantageous positions or your just drilling fairweather scenarios

also hope to be covering this with Dan /"adamantium" in the next month or so

As a newcomer to the forum, I have been busy playing catch up reading. I have come across a lot of good posts. But this thread, and in particular your responses in it Richard, really struck a chord. Already in other threads, I have touched on what I have heard others term cognitive load, when it comes to the respective demand of differing verbal deescalation techniques. And now here in this thread I find written that which would have been fantastic to read when I was trying without success to incorporate the extended deescalation techniques employed by Senshido. Most of whose physical concepts I have no prob with at all. And employ with great success (in training at any rate). In your reply, you have dramatically altered my initial perceptions of you. Which, while not unkind, were wary. Given the number of snake oil salesmen that populate this industry.

good lawd your're a verbose one intcha?


you write like someone who does it as a profession- legal/ journalist or academic? or "not even close"?

extended deescaltion fits into no model of violence I can measure against any personal experience of mine unless the "attacker" really had no genuine malicious intent to begin with

if you dont know him, he is shouting and moving in towards you, you need to "go"- simples.

People are waking up to the snake oil which is a good thing-all I can say is stay wary and stay critical