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Street Fight Secrets

Intelligent Self Protection Solutions: Combative Psychology and Street Applied Martial Arts
 
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thugsage
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thugsage


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PostSubject: seriously though...   seriously though... EmptyMon May 04, 2009 2:21 pm

...what the fuck is native american ground fighting.
i guess i'll send my lakota friend Bill and email after this
and see if he's heard of it lol!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQmTVo21oGI&feature=related

don't get me wrong, i've seen this guy in other drills and believe
he can handle himself...lets not get away from the point, which is
[to re-iterate]...

what the fuck is native american ground fighting Laughing Laughing Laughing

edited///
found this one put to music...even better!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP3tZfgODBg&feature=related

then this beauty...file this under, "dear god, they're multiplying" lol!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebIGc_h_w5c&feature=related


...then this,
you can see the hand stuff is starting to look like, well, real fighting
so one can't throw the baby out with the bathwater...but that bathwater is, uhm,
full of brown bubbles Mad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHbUQYLjQsM&feature=related


Last edited by Russell Sage on Mon May 04, 2009 3:59 pm; edited 3 times in total
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RichardB




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PostSubject: Re: seriously though...   seriously though... EmptyMon May 04, 2009 2:45 pm

scratch

I think that's what happens if a tae kwon do guy is knocked over while fighting. Laughing
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maija
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PostSubject: Re: seriously though...   seriously though... EmptyTue May 05, 2009 5:11 pm

I don't know ... I think there is some 'bathwater' there.
The twirling floor dervish seems similar to what they teach in self defense classes for women - rape situation stuff. It could fall into the wriggly, spikey, non-smooth motion category, no? And continuous motion and rolling out of the way can't be a bad idea if you find your self on the ground - though standing back up is obviously mo' better.
The slapsy free form drill might work well as a 'getting your face wet' exercise, and perhaps to work on the blinking reflex? Also, I'm all for random chaos so I enjoyed that part.

I think of the clips, I liked this one best, especially the 'don't do this' part:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXvx8HBMTYA
Though I'll have to try their solution to see how that works .....
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thugsage
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PostSubject: Re: seriously though...   seriously though... EmptyTue May 05, 2009 5:36 pm

i get your meaning mate. and i am aware that you feel it's better to get
back up. and i too like the free form drill [that involved hands]-
i'm only re-stating your point so you don't think it's some kind of a rebuttle,
but rather an explanation for my strong'ish stance as to why my bollocks meter
registered high.

i just have a gag reflex to ground fighting because one isn't really
getting away--a point especially pertinant for women attacked.

if someone is a big oaf and--to take the assault point of focus which
is two bodies in a lock, one of which non compliant...horizontal just
seems like a place i wouldn't want to be. what's to stop him from simply
getting down on the ground with the hypothetical girl and sort of
grappling his way into escalating the assault.

don't get me wrong, a well placed kick from the ground might make
a shit load of sense--but to me only as a pause whilst i get the f&*^
back up and run/fight/whatever. and it's not as though i would be against such
training if it represents a sort of 'open window' of opportunity. i'm against that
it's the focus--as if a magic new drill to learn. a trendy new agey style called
'native american ground fighting'. i almost think that the main practitioner might
not be too bad at it--because of his athleticism, long legs, sensibility that lends to
break dancer-ish moves. i rather doubt that it can be passed along and consumed
by the masses, to include short rolly polly guys, etc...

and i get that if it were possible, it'd be terrific if one could generate a kick in an
elevator before all the possible space was eaten up, but the range. holy moses,
it's be like putting the cobra and mongoose in the box. the mongoose uses range,
in a box the cobra wins.

more of a response than you bargained for i reckon, and not directed at you, but
sometimes i only right a line or two but secretly hide an avalanche--this is just
one of those subjects.

to balance all this diatribe, the hand free form drills i saw seemed exceptional.
it's sort of weird to give up on that and start flopping around like a porpoise. this is
all way to hypothetical, i'd like to admit since this type of response has yet to happen
to me in an altercation. having said that, my first thought would be to kick legs, stomp
feet, upset the break dancing and keep stomping and kicking. but admittedly, i'm
working almost entirely off of theory.

when i was in karate, some police ju-jitsu guys would come down from new york
and show us all this stuff. i liked them and enjoyed the class. they taught me alot.
the only time i started to sort of close up was during the hermit crab ground fighting.
i just couldn't digest it.

so, in fairness, maybe it's a block. a flaw in my genetic make-up lol! . i only have a
handful of pressure tests from which to draw, and many more sports style fights...but
what i recall is that the one on the bottom, paid for it. Laughing
but these weren't trained people, so maybe i'm getting into straw hat territory now.

scratch
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maija
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PostSubject: Re: seriously though...   seriously though... EmptyTue May 05, 2009 5:54 pm

Hi Russ,
I was hoping for some discussion, so I'm glad you replied.
I suspect the idea with the floor twirling for womens' self defense is that there is yelling involved to attract attention and so perhaps dissuade the attacker from continuing - so yes, a space getter/ 'open window'. Also, space getting as you stand up is also not a bad idea, but as you said, staying down does not seem like a good idea in the least.
And please, Russ, rebutt away, and wear your straw or tin hat if you want - It's all good Very Happy
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thugsage
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PostSubject: Re: seriously though...   seriously though... EmptyTue May 05, 2009 6:00 pm

ha ha ha
...
i'm wearing foil right now, what're you wearing mate? affraid
glad for the spirit of debate, done deal!
lol!
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maija
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PostSubject: Re: seriously though...   seriously though... EmptyTue May 05, 2009 7:28 pm

Well Russ, I'm wearing my super tactical ninja stealth helmet with built in flame thrower of course Very Happy
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RichardB




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PostSubject: Re: seriously though...   seriously though... EmptyTue May 05, 2009 7:35 pm

If I'm doing anything native-American it's got to be with a tomahawk. Twisted Evil

Otherwise what the hell else is there to do? tipi's, horses, the peace pipe. drunken

Well there's always the bow and arrow.

But more to the point. I remember seeing that elevator example before. And I agree for the most part with their argument. But in their video they basically just step in close and put their arms around the knifer. Gettin within range, failing to do anything decisive and ignoring the knife arm can only have one outcome. If any grappling at all is to be done it should be on and around the knife arm. They were everywhere but the knife arm. Also, in their kicking part. They used a shield and I can understand the logic of that, but it was a handicap and the knifer didn't seem to try as hard. They could at least have duct taped the shield to the guy so he'd have his arm free. Laughing

It didn't seem like a real test. More like they were just trying to demonstrate a conclusion they had already made. It would be better to see someone really try while both wearing redman suits or similar getups.

In the padded scenarios I've been a knifer, kicking has been all too easy to break through. I basically deflected the (push/front/same as in video) kicks with my left hand out to my left, leaving their entire flank open if they used their left leg, which they often did. And ended up going stabbity stab from behind to my leisure, pulling them back with a sort of choke. Nearly every time! And it wasn't because I was so damn good either. (neither were they, which could be a factor) I suppose you can maintain range with kicks, but body kicks don't seem to do much damage. Unless you're just buying time for the door to open and make a break for it, maybe something more decisive would be of more benefit.

The only fairly sure thing about being on the wrong end of a knife and within range is that it calls for extreme alertness and aggression. Unless you've got some really well ingrained reflexes from some of that Filipino stuff (provided it's functional. I've never seen it in scenarios or anything), it's going to have to be something real crude. Like going berserk with heavy shots to the head and so on. Unless the knifer is inept enough to allow for grabbing and breaking the arm before stomping him into a good nights sleep, that seems like a pretty good option (provided you've got heavy shots to give of course).

Ironically, the kicking motions they recommend for use in elevators make more sense outside where there's more range available. In the elevator you can only kick the guy to the extent of your leg anyway, and those body kicks aren't doing any kind of damage that puts the guy out of the fight then and there (although I won't be lining up to take any of those). The elevator detail really is kind of an irrelevant detail though. The only thing that does is prevent escape and dodging around. It shouldn't impact aggressive tactics to any huge degree.

That and the importance of ending the fight as fast as possible seems to indicate offense as the best defense.

The frenzied stomping type of kicking makes a lot of sense when you're down though. I can't think of a whole lot of other viable options from there. But with the priority of getting the space to get back up. Instead of having the knifer all over you in a ground grapple.
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thugsage
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PostSubject: Re: seriously though...   seriously though... EmptyTue May 05, 2009 8:30 pm

...nice synopsis.
BTW,
this quote of yours KingRichB
"I think that's what happens if a tae kwon do guy is knocked over while fighting"

had me chuckling to myself for several hours, that's exactly what it looked like! lol!
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maija
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PostSubject: Re: seriously though...   seriously though... EmptyTue May 05, 2009 8:51 pm

Re: the elevator clip
Quote: "It didn't seem like a real test. More
like they were just trying to demonstrate a conclusion they had already
made."

Agreed - not a lot of sense in the clinch, and like I said, have not tried their solution in a confined space so maybe ...maybe not ....
Interesting that you would prefer to kick without the constraints of the 'elevator'.
I'm always leery of kicking, apart from as a way to create the 'window' to enter with.
Do you think that being able to use the walls to brace against is a positive or negative factor, assuming that the kick is followed up by head shots or something 'stop worthy'?

Quote: "The elevator detail really is kind of an
irrelevant detail though. The only thing that does is prevent escape
and dodging around. It shouldn't impact aggressive tactics to any huge
degree."

Also agreed, though I believe that training in confined spaces is very useful because there is no way out as it were .... My eskrima teacher trained us out of his living room which contained 2 sofas, a TV stand and a work table, as well as the walls being covered in edged weapons - quite challenging.
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RichardB




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PostSubject: Re: seriously though...   seriously though... EmptyTue May 05, 2009 10:36 pm

Russell Sage wrote:
...nice synopsis.
BTW,
this quote of yours KingRichB
"I think that's what happens if a tae kwon do guy is knocked over while fighting"

had me chuckling to myself for several hours, that's exactly what it looked like! lol!

I calls 'em like I see's 'em. pirat

At first it reminded me of capoeira, with all of those breakdancing tendencies, so I thought upside down capoeira then. But capoeira guys really are upside down so it wasn't that. But tae kwon do fit like a glove.

They really should consider that stuff as their ground game.

lol!


Now... Switching to Maija's post... study


It's not that I'm a big fan of kicking. The kicking outside the elevator is more from the idea that without those damn walls you might at least kick the guy away, make him fall on his ass or something. Those kicks of theirs make more sense in the context of doing that, in order to escape. For that purpose it has a function. In the elevator it's only to the wall and requires an immediate repeat because he's still at the end of your foot. Trowing a leg out to his side could leave the kicker wide open, not to mention if the knifer were to get a good hold of a leg and close. That seems a lot like what is professionally called "a fucked position."

The walls... I suppose the "equal and opposite reaction" gets stopped at both walls so that all force generated is delivered and stays in the other guy. In that sense they seem like a positive. But I don't know if the kicker has got the body mechanics of any punching worthy of mention after kicking both himself and the other guy to the walls. At least not until Mr. Knifer is back up as well. Might be better to just do that right away.

Now if the kicker could trip the guy or something so those kinds of kicks could be delivered to the head. Then we're talking business. Kicking to the legs could make the guy fall like that. But body shots seem a lot like wasted time and energy compared to other stuff.

While I'm no huge fan of trying to grab flailing knife arms, the walls do seem to serve as things to slam the knifer up against, smothering that arm so it can be caught and broken. And if that succeeds it is probably the solution with the least amount of knife wounds recieved. A knockout could work extremely fast too. But a two sided boxing match where one part has a blade won't work.

Training in confined spaces is definitely good. It's good to require as little space as possible, as it's not always available. Basically most indoor circumstances... Hard to fight while stumbling and tripping over all sorts of crap. I think range and space is a big factor in how offensive one must be. If there's plenty of space, all sorts of dogning and backpedaling even flat out running is available. The less space there is, the more aggression is required to maintain the same level of relative "safety" or control of the fight.
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