you guys try dim mak?

hello, i know it is disscussed before on this forum, but i cannot find it. yesterday on the dutch television was a demo, of dim mak, and every body got ko ed with soft hits on pressure points.
before i go to try it out myself, and spend 60 euro on travel to te gym. i like to know if you tryed once, and if its again bullshit or not.. like systema.. also tryed it, it was bull.
thanks in advance! greets chulo

Chulo,
had a guy come in for a 'demo'. i'm pretty sure he just had rock hard hands and pulled the 'non-pressure-point-hits'. i know there are things to make your arms feel like their dead and useless because i had a mate demonstrate after i was dubious. i watch out for the same knock out points being tapped hard--inconspicuously hard, in a one-punch-ish style.

all this to say there there are places that are worse (we probably know most of them), if hit, than others...but i wouldn't look for a magic show. the guy who demonstrated on me put a hand at my ribs somewhere 'blocking an energy channel, erm' and over powered me. again, he was a big strong guy that i'm sure was pulling his power on the pre-rib move. save your money, punch hard, and punch in the right places.

there is a guy in my area that teaches something like 'polander-style-kempo' that i do believe has some validity. someone he trained knocked my arms--inner arm, in a few places and rendered my arms fairly useless for immediate reprisals. that made an impression on me. sort of places that make your arms fall asleep if you hit them because of blood flow or whatever. maybe i didn't get the right 'demo' guy, but he's actually pretty highly ranked in the area--so i wont name him. i chalk it up to him just having heavy hands--cinderblock breaking type, and bringing with him an air of experience and little else.

Now this can be a touchy area….

There is a lot of hoopla surrounding the term dim mak and a bunch of BS.

Let’s get away from the term for a moment and look at it from a different perspective. Are there areas of the body that are more sensitive than others? Does striking one area of the body make another a bit more sensitive or susceptible to attack? The answer to both would be yes. Does one rule apply to all body types across the planet? NO… way too many variables. Finally will lightening bolts come out of your fingers? Just kidding.

I have researched the hell out of this over the years after I had seen someone get KO’d with a strike that didn’t seem hard enough to cause a KO. When I saw this happen I immediately went up to the unconscious person to verify his state… that is fact he was unconscious. Now I worked in an ER for several years and I can assure you that I know when someone is really out or just faking. He was in fact out. Now that quirked my noodle. So I found this guy named Glen in my area that claimed to have this knowledge. So me and 2 students went to see him and played around for about an hour or so. Gained some knowledge and had some fun, when it was time to go I said “Well, I need to see, knock me out”. So he said grab me by the lapel, which I did with both hands. He did 2 strikes, one to one of my arms (medium power) and one well place knuckle to the back of my neck (fairly light power) and the next thing I knew, I was on the floor saying “Jesus Christ”. It felt like someone had just put electricity through my head. Ok so now I’m a believer in sensitive areas of the body and their potential effect.

So myself and about 4 of my students started to play with it and dig up as much info as we could (about 7 years ago). Well the info was as vast and varied as the life in our oceans which made finding anything consistent very difficult. Yet we continued to attempt a KO with that particular 2 strike sequence with no result and we were on the verge of simply giving up. However, along the way we did find some awesome targets that we continue to use today when ever available just because of the bang for the buck in results. Then one day approximately 4 months into our venture, I accomplished the KO. Dam we were excited and soon realized that it was our intent that was lacking. After all we weren’t out to harm each other during our initial attempts. After that eventually we were all able to do that particular strike sequence with good results and started exploring others.

Does it work 100% of the time? NO
Will it work on 100% of the people? NO
Is everybody sensitive to vital points? Yes, but to varying degrees

So in the end is it a good thing to learn and understand sensitive areas of the body and incorporate them into your current training. Absolutely, but one cannot depend on them as the end all solution. Your technique or strike must be effective as a stand alone.

Now go poke somebody and have some fun.

nice answer!!

the guy that deadened my arm was in fact someone whose arm couldn't be deadened because seemed to be a guy with a high threshold for pain and the nerves weren't as sensitive--or whatever it was. but he was able to deaden my arm most effectively. he had the perspective you have. he saw it work, but wasn't going to be the guy it would work on.

now...howz-about tell us those couple of points so we can go poke someone??? hmmm???

having said that, there were several points of cartilidge (did i spell that right?) build up on my wrists where the 'demo' guy wasn't able to do what he was claiming on me. i chalk this to years of pounding because my wrists have lots of pressure on them weekly. probably looking forward to shiteloads of arthritus in the years to come.

all in all, because of the mixed results on me and my mate, it made me not buy into the company stock any time soon. i'm still open to someone showing me--on me, and me trying it on someone else.

Sure I'll share that....

First let me say that describing anatomical locations in writing is pretty tuff, so I found a couple of things on the net that will help.

Start with a 2 hand lapel grab as the attack. Then using your right forearm bone just above the wrist (ulna bone) strike down and toward your body against your opponents forearm at location LI-10 (large intestine 10) (see picture about 2/3 down this page) http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/643 the point is located between those 2 muscles on the top outside of the forearm just below the elbow (use medium power so you get a body reaction from your opponent to the point that they kind of lean forward and their chin will rise slightly). Then your second strike you will use the same hand, use a thumb knuckle (see below for thumb knuckle) and strike GB-20 (gall bladder 20) see picture here http://www.holisticonline.com/Remedies/Heart/hypert_acupressure.htm To find this spot on yourself, use your index finger at the base of the skull at the location shown and you will feel a little depression (closer to the outside than the center). If you apply pressure it will feel softer there.

Thumb knuckle http://www.martialfighter.com/offensive_files/fist24.gif

Now the thumb knuckle strike needs to be in the direction of the opposite forehead, meaning… imagine a straight line between gb-20 and the opposite side of the head and that is the angle and direction of the strike. You are using a thumb knuckle to get right in there on that particular spot (use light to medium power, you want to get in there but be careful).


Now in reality (street) I would not use a thumb knuckle I would use the forearm and whack the shit out of it. But this is to acquaint you to the target and how to access it. On the street power can make up for inaccuracy. Besides as I said before the technique has to stand alone and the base of the skull is a good stand alone target.

I have one student that is so sensitive to GB-20, that if I put a finger there and vibrate it, you can see his pupil dialate and he starts to fall. Pretty funny really, because when we train I will inevitably tap or grab that spot on him at some point and have to catch him before he hits the floor or he’ll stagger. I have never seen anyone else as sensitive as this guy is.

Don't be discouraged if you can't make it work the first time, but once you get it, things get alot easier.

Happy poking

Quote :

Ok so now I’m a believer in sensitive areas of the body and their potential effect.

well worded, I agree

good post Roadkill

From what I remember about this (which is not a great deal), the reason why it works is that you 'cross the electrical wiring' in the body. Therefore the pair of points that are hit (e.g. on the arms and behind the neck) work as a series - the first strike opens up the meridian structure (like in acupuncture) where you are going to strike next , and the second has the effect. If someone is particularly sensitive, their meridian structure is already open where you need it to be, so you only need to strike that one target.
Conversely this means that you can 'close' your meridians so the strikes will not be effective. Each strike has a counter protection as it were.
This counter is both physical and mental.
Physically you can realign, or hold your body in a way that makes the dim mak less effective. This is different for different points, but can feel like 'filling' the area in question.
For the mental part, as an example, not really dim mak, but similar in effect; if you imagine kicking someone in the shins without them seeing you do it, there is a moment when their brain is processing - leg, hurt. - where they will forget where their hands are and it is easier to hit them in the head, for instance. Now if someone trains, is used to the feeling of shin kicks, or has a high pain threshold, this will not work. I think Richie has the example of biting a guy who wouldn't go down, who then then became more manageable. Now that is probably pain based, but the way it made the guys brain go into freefall and so make his hand muscles let go, is very similar.

Roadkill,
thanks mate. i'm going to wait patiently until i can wrap this around a class... have you ever watched russell stutely [can't remember...i think that's his name]. he makes a similar suggestion in a youtube clip with the back of the head in conjunction with pressure on the top of the head--if memory serves (like where you'd head a soccer ball at an angle). the poor sod in the clip keeps hitting the floor and the instructor says, "now...how'd that feel...describe it"

that was an unambigous and really great answer--again. if i'd have written such an answer, everyone would be trying out completely different moves that on one end look like the technique and on the other appear to be country line dancing

I have a video of me doing that one... somewhere... I'll try to find it

okay, nice replys! i go check out myself than.. hope im getting convinced also! let you guys know my experience soon!

greets!

Chulo- tell us about your systema experience mate

Chulodog, prepare yourself for some serious parlor tricks and bring a BS filter with you.

Basically dont be easily swayed by it, but take from it what can be useful and have fun.

Please do report back..

i called the gym, and asked their head teacher but he gives classes in belgium.. its close to where i live, so i go check this week with my students.

@richie
About Systema.. i asked before if he could do the things like the generals on youtube.. he say not the same as them, but good enough to control somebody easy etc. he did taekwondo, and kuykyshin karate before and found out that systema is mutch better etc..

so i went to the systema gym.. great expetations, walked in.. and they went for a forest training.. outside.. its okay with me, i thougt, so we went running with all kind of things.. like in the army.

later different kind of sensitivity training.. and i found it very interesting.. but i spoke to the phone also i like to pressure test him.. and he agreed on the phone..
in real life, he dont wanna fight me. so i could try his best student..
a police pig also. haha, soo i liked it!!

I trained for years contact training, and sensitivity and mma, and now i could test myself vs a good police systema student.. he was nothing.

But i like the movements of systema for flexebility and army style things..
but i hoped to get my ass beat hard, or my head stomped in. none of that happened.
I wished them well with their training, and i like to see / fight one of the generals of systema. maby they can do what they show on youtube for real..
i dont know.

i think it is also a little bit the culture, because the mother of a russian friend of me, also is allways busy with supernatural things. and believe strong in it.

maby in a life / death situation the slowly trained techniques come out explosive and perfectly, but i dont know.

i only now one thing.. i started with judo when i was 5 years old, later i got my ass kicked from a karate boy from another dojo, so i go also train there, goju karate, and judo, and jiujitsu.. this i did till i was 16.. i got my ass kicked by a good pencak streetfigher we became friends, and his granddad was willing to teach me also.. what im till this day really thankfull off. later i try out shooto.. shoot wrestling, and got my ass kicked on mma rules in the dojo.. later i tryed kickboxing, and mma.. it was okay, later i got my ass kicked on bjj rules in a bjj class..

the only thing i like to say is.. i only like to train somewhere if their technique is better than what i know allready.

and the systema did not what they claimed it would do, but maby i had not a good school.

greets

I dont think you would find much different with the "Generals" of Systema, as you put it- one is a skilled martial artist, one isnt- both are completely deluded by thier abilitiites thanks to the loving indulgences of worshipful students

there is a cultural difference with Russians for sure, I always felt like a lot was being assumed about the gap between developing attributes (sensitivity and flexibility drills) and actually applying the way you were supposed to move in a fight- Ive trained with the "Generals" a couple of times and the two are teaching two completely different systems as far as I could see, Ive also sparred with lots of Systema students and the only ones who can deal with boring old fashioned kickboxing and grappling are the ones who alreayd have a background in it before they came to systema

strange the power of believe huh?

I cannot believe in 2008 that people play tricks to impress other people., and start believe in the system..
btw. my father also said.. now i know why so many russian dies in war..

@Richie:
Of the people who had skills before they did Systema, do you think the Systema upped their game? Did nothing noticeably different? Made it worse?

Soo i went to Dim mak.. my experiences..

first of all, really really friendly guys there.
the lesson was a little bit like mma, but with an hour of kuysho jitsu and dim mak.
the pain on pressure points me and my students we could feel. but the ko hits dont worked on me, and also not on my students. and i doubt also if somebody s gonna wait for u if you are trying the dim mak. but i let me get hit. first i had to grab him, he hit my arm, fore head, and back of my head/neck.

yes i felt a little bit dizzy, but for sure i was able to punch back still.

but somethings they do really hurt indeed., and i felt some strange pains there..
and for sure the teacher go easy on us..

so if it works? i think it is effective for women, and old people..
if you dont have the ko power in your arms any more, its nice to be a master in pressure point hitting.

there was also one scary high educated guy who was an docter, who in hospitals give narcoses and morfine etc.
he talked very interesting, he say it is proved some pressure points can give a heart attack, without knowing the precise cause of death. dangerous for people with a criminal mind.

sometimes i gets wondering why people like to know how you can kill somebody the most effective way. i think many people are affraid of everything, and train this kind of things to learn how to protect themselfes, but get even more scared. the guys there where really friendly and nice, but all looked a little bit scared.

maija wrote:

@Richie:
Of the people who had skills before they did Systema, do you think the Systema upped their game? Did nothing noticeably different? Made it worse?

here is my careful reply: the good principles of Russian Martial Arts that are found within the mishmash of stuff that "Systema "represents (its called the System, yet it has no syllabus and the training is not systematic at all) will indeed up the game of a reasonably adept martial artist- if you look around other systems that come with the RMA label (not Systema) start with a strong base in just boxing or kickboxing and grappling, thats the base, the more definable Russian Martial Art elements came later

elements like: no fixed guard, spontaneous creative response to moment, momentum over tension to create power, continuus flow with no peaks in the techniques etc etc

those things are like icing on a cake... a russian cake of pain

are you thinking of having a go Maija?

Chulo, it seems like kyusho jitsu is similar to the RMA and the "rips" we were talking about a few weeks a go, its interesting but without a proper base its not that applicable

....not thinking of having a go, but I've been thinking about various arts/systems, what they teach, how they want their students to progress etc.
I have not trained Systema, but I like many of the sensitivity and fluidity drills, exactly the 'icing' you describe, but also like you said, I agree that without baseline striking skills and some tactics for closing and such, they don't have much context.
If you look at some traditional martial systems, back in the day, no-one wanted to teach the 'how' part until they were sure the student was totally loyal and not likely to go start up a rival security service/gang whatever. My Bagua teacher talks about 'outdoor' training - forms, techniques and set partner practices, and then the 'indoor' training - "How to use?" as he says, which is all about tactics, strength training, issuing power, and of course full contact sparring. This was only open to a few.
Conversely, the Eskrima I learned from my teacher was ALL "How to use?". He really only trained people who came with skills who wanted to up their game or to learn more about weapons (which also improved their skills!). It was ALL sparring on one level or another, and very little 'system'.
It seems that some of the concepts in Systema are good, (especially the way that you can still use it after a large quantity of vodka :-)!) I was just wondering about the 'how to use' part.

Hi Maija

I studied systema for a few years and have attended seminars with most of the top instructors (Ryabko, Vasiliev etc.) As I was there a few years I became something of a senior student in the class. I was good at applying “systema” to others in the class but it is not the same as being in a fight. In my latter days there I trained with a guy who had a tons of sparring and fighting experience and was a fantastic fighter. There was nothing I could teach him about fighting but he liked learning systema concepts from me that he could apply to his own training.

Most of the guys I can think of who are good fighters in systema had a high level in other systems before hand so I would agree with Richie and call it the “icing” on the cake but it is not the cake itself. Ryabko and Vasiliev and other senior teachers are very impressive but I don’t think it’s a good style for a novice seeking self protection skills. I can't really think of any people who came with zero martial/fighting experience and attained a good level of combative skill. (I probably got more of that from training with the Bob Spour DVDs and doing a foundation course in Krav.)

Whilst there are no fixed stances, techniques etc, there is also sometimes a rigid dogmatic approach to training. I think it's about finding what works for you but a lot of people seem to want to copy Ryabko and Vasiliev's movements. It took them years to get to where they are now. If you look at Vladimir's tapes from the late 90's, it's different to how he moves in more recent stuff. It is very hard to watch Ryabko and see what he is doing. He moves only as much as he needs to and hits like a wrecking ball. Don't be fooled by his appearance.

What goes on in classes varies wildly too. Some schools will try all sorts of things, put on protective gear and fight, hit pads, others will not do any of this. Ryabko frowns on weight training but a lot of guys in Vasiliev's classes use kettlebells.

There are a lot of good principles and concepts in systema and it really can be studied as a means of enhancing health and well-being on its own – you will even learn techniques for drinking vodka! If you are looking to get the most out of it as a means of “icing your cake” then you should go in with your cake already baked. Stupid baking analogies aside, I think you would get a lot from it if you had some judo, boxing etc under your belt.

Systema does help itself with the clips that usually turn up on the net (and quickly end up on bullshido). For some of the better examples of training, look up people like Valentin Vasiliev (brother of Vladimir) and Kevin Secours and his “Primal Power” series on youtube. They seem to incorporate more resistance/non-compliance in their classes and will pad up and bang from time to time.

Thanks Traceur,
Very interesting.
Quote:"..... but a lot of people seem to want to copy Ryabko and Vasiliev's movements. It took them years to get to where they are now. If you look at Vladimir's tapes from the late 90's, it's different to how he moves in more recent stuff. It is very hard to watch Ryabko and see what he is doing. He moves only as much as he needs to and hits like a wrecking ball. Don't be fooled by his appearance."

Many high level people have this in common, but as you say, unfortunately are often surrounded by people copying what they LOOK like instead of doing what they DO, and in the process create something meaningless .... and obviously, if you learn in an environment where you never have to TEST what you practice, after a certain point who knows if what you have has any validity? (By test here I don't necessarily mean getting into bar fights, but at least train with resisting opponents)
I enjoy working out with fighters (as opposed to martial 'arts' practitioner) because the feedback is so much better and it keeps me honest, but I also enjoy learning material/'icing' that will 'add up' with my knowledge, so in theory (HAHA!) I will improve my skill set.

Both MR and VV have been tested a lot in real fights as well as by guys coming into their classes to try it on. I have seen a few guys try things on in seminars and both VV and MR held their own without any trouble.

Ryabko would always tell people to use the principles he was showing, not copy him but I think when you have someone who is a figurehead like this people are inevitably going to copy him and you end up with fairly fit but relatively inexperienced guys moving very little, not holding their hands in a guard and missing the point.

I know some ex-Buj guys who say the same thing is true of a lot of ninjers. When he was younger Hatsumi did a lot of resistance training, judo randori, free fighting etc but he is in his 80's now so he doesn't train the same way. A lot of the younger guys just train like the 80 year old Hatsumi, not the 35 year old one because it is what he does now so it must be right. Right?

As I said earlier, the issue you will have with systema is that it is completely different from school to school as there is no standardised way of training so depending on where you are you might love it or hate it. Where are you based?

Yep, like Ueshiba. He came from a very hard background of traditional martial arts and the Japanese armed forces. What he did in his 80's doing Aikido was very different to how he got there .....
Also there is a funny story about one of the famous Yang style Tai Chi guys who always practiced slow and beautiful out in the park , but then apparently went home and practiced hard style hitting to the extent that the walls of his house shook!
They talk of Bagua as a machine into which you put raw material, the raw material being striking, kicking, boxing, grappling, throwing, whatever. My teacher uses the analogy of a car factory - the raw materials go in one end, the pieces are fabricated and put together according to the design, and out the other end comes a car.
Now as he says, you can spend alot of time on the fabrication and the design, but in the end you really need to DRIVE the car. That's what it's for. not looking at, or tinkering with.
Needless to say, if your raw materials suck, then the car falls apart, and if you never 'drive' it, what the hell are you building it for in the first place?!
OK, enough of cakes and cars, though for one last food analogy ...I am lucky enough to live in the San Francisco Bay area, which being a Smorgasbord of all things, including martial arts, makes it very easy to find pretty much anything one might want to learn.

maija wrote:

Needless to say, if your raw materials suck, then the car falls apart, and if you never 'drive' it, what the hell are you building it for in the first place?!

Ha - this is a great quote. It sums up a lot of things very well.

Yeah I've heard stories about Yang Lu Chan whose old school tai chi training was so harsh one of his sons ran away from home and the other tried to kill himself. If only the housewives knew!