Manners in todays world

Hi guys, i'd like to hear your opinion on this. I've been bought up to be polite ()ay please, thank you, let people enter a doorway before me) but more and more i notice that people take this as a sign of weakness and will treat me as if i am an easy target verbally. In short i get the impression that this demonstrates lower value within certain groups. Are manners outdated? Should they be turned on and off? Should they be held back untill a person(S) personality is better known?

Good manners are a good thing IMO but on a primal level a lot of that stuff seems to have a lot in common with gestures signalling submissiveness. We are animals after all.

There's nothing wrong with good manners. I'm interested to hear how you have experienced them making you "an easy target verbally"?
And as for letting people enter a doorway first - that means you are tactically in a great position - behind them, right?

maija wrote:

There's nothing wrong with good manners. I'm interested to hear how you have experienced them making you "an easy target verbally"?

Ok, upon getting to know certain people there is usually a grin/sneer or laugh when i've said please/thank you/if you don't mind etc and then other people have repeted back what i've said in a higher tonality coupled with weak gesturing. Subtely mockery but i feel that through this my social value has been degraded versus other people who have almost no manners seem to have more rapport. I dunno it's stuff i've noticed over the years. Along with this (out of politeness) i'm willing to go the extra mile to help people out when i'm asked which leads to people taking the piss. Does any of this actually make sense lol?

When in rome, do as the Romans.

When you find yourself in a tribe of savages, just grunt like they do.

Well, my first glib reaction would be "why the hell do you care what this bunch of rude dickheads thinks? And why are you hanging with them anyway?" .... BUT that would not be very constructive, and as we are all social animals, I know it's hard to be the odd one out in a group.
So ... instead I am wondering why you believe that those being impolite and without manners get more status in this group? It seems to show a lack of self esteem to me. (Also I guess it can be funny, as can taking the piss out of you no doubt!)
I have to say that nearly all of the people that I have met that I would call true warriors, are extremely polite. Now there's always a few nutters lol!, but in general if you have a high level of skill, don't carry around much fear because of the confidence of experience, and therefore have good self esteem, it's easy to be polite.
Good manners are free, make alliances and generally makes society function better.
How do you stay polite but don't get outcast by your friends? Well I'm not sure, though RichardB may be right! I just think that if you believe YOU are right, you should stick to your guns and 'don't let the bastards grind you down', as they say. Let 'em laugh.

On a historical note, I read a theory that the concept of chivalry gained ground in the dark and middle ages to give all the knights (aka rich guys with weapons) who had come back from war, a code to live by, and focus their attention on protecting the weak, rescuing damsels etc instead of raping, pillaging, and fighting with each other....
Also in feudal Japan, where I believe 10% of the total population was Samurai class (not necessarily rich but armed), politeness and etiquette was an absolute necessity to alleviate the tendency of very proud men who would risk shame if they did not defend their honor, from fighting and killing each other off all the time.
Society is weaker when it's best fighters are all dead from unnecessary conflict, and their leaders knew this.

[quote="maija"]Well, my first glib reaction would be "why the hell do you care what this bunch of rude dickheads thinks? And why are you hanging with them anyway?" .... BUT that would not be very constructive, and as we are all social animals, I know it's hard to be the odd one out in a group.
quote]

I hear you mate but my post i really about opinions on manners rather than my personal situation.

being a well mannered, polite, decent person doesn't really dependant on other peoples standards for me, rather it's an internal set of standards.

I'm sure I've mentioned before some of the unpleasant characteristics of the blokes I work with. It's always been important for me to retain my own standards, rather than mimic theirs, though life would undoubtedly be easier for me if I did act more like them.

I don't know to what extent manners 'matter' on a large scale, but on a personal scale they are important to me.

it sounds like you're also trying to be polite enough to those loutish and insecure mates. you're a bigger man than i gunga-din--or however you spell that.
i like cultivating a state of politeness,as a counter balance to what we're all training for. it also prepares for the element of surprize. if you're always barking and taking the piss...well, you may be accepted as one of the guys and all...and that's a way of blending, but i think it breads the very insecurities those who are doing it on 'automatic polite' have inside. from my humble vantage point, i also see the wisdom in leading by my own behavior script--whether it's polite or impolite. and it puts a healthy perspective on really focussing on the real enemies you'll face, after all, isn't that what all that shit really is...testing the waters, trying to scent mark on your manliness? using you as a platform for their delusions of grandeur.

personally(i probably speak only for myself). i like the idea of cultivating a state of politeness as a balance...but also as a sadistic build up for a surprizing response when it is necessary (i don't necessarily mean physically fighting either). being quiet, enjoying the peace...watching the show...seeing how it makes you feel inside...feeding the fire as people start to bother you when you haven't done anything to elicite these slack jawed behavioral responses...watching it grow...then one day giving an anomolous lashing (tongue or fist) that serves as a shocking frame of reference.
i think of all the things i got from my dad, this was it. verbal explosions after a long stretch of composure and politeness. he was quite shocking even to the most self worshipping meat head. i was with him in a theatre while some folks were ruining the movie for all. he was saying nothing. just watching. eating bad/expensive movie snacks...then it came like an explosion with a loud voice, "WILL YOU SHUT UP!" precisely enunciated, like a bark. the fooking theatre was so quiet you could hear the actors flatulence after that--even the silent ones. and all from a low profile with the potential of a wicked and direct counter if the situation warranted it. he's actually done as much belting a young bloke back into his car--no hesitation. and my dad is intellectual drunk with a big head. a firey scot who looks a bit like david niven's ugly brother (ha ha...hope he doesn't read this). but he knows how to work a balance. and that most people are mentally weak as piss.

Society doesnt corrupt because people lose their manners but because people STOP doing what they think is right in order to "fit in"

there have always been mannerless fucks who deserve a cudgel into their skulls for taking up space, and making undue noise and smell in a beautiful world of limited resources...

and there have always been the true warrior class who believe in geniune respect and courtesy and bravery and honesty as a means of living their lives in good karmic balance NOT out of social obedience and being a good little herd bitch

and then there are those street savvy modern day ninja mystics, the assasin healers who steal in and out of social situations leaving no trace, adapting their tonality accent and body language to intelligently and ego-lessly suit the needs of any psychological environment, changing their external behaviors like a chamelionic mental cloaking device that reflects only what the gormless breeder in front of you needs to see- these people silently and happily work their will and manifest their intentions whilst keeping those intentions completely hidden from all

- they bitched about it in roman times, samurai times, spartan times, victorian times, they probably bitched about it whilst we were drawing on the inside of caves in our own poo and we will probably still bitch about it when we are all zooming around in hover cars with our credit details sown into our foreheads

Richie's tonic for these eternal social ailments?

take frequent small doses of the following mental cocktail , buy a notebook and start making notes:

robert anton wilson illuminati series

mario puzzo the sicillian

Chin-Ning Chu thick face black heart

masaaki hatsumi - the fighting is weakness, the psychology is strong (thats not the name of a book, thats an opinion)

derren brown trick of the mind

richard bandler time for a change



well, as was righteoulsy observed "A man maie well bring a horse to the water, But he can not make him drinke without he will."

or as in the Naked Gun series, "you can lead a cop to water, but you cant make him think"

I have the thick face, black heart book, tricks of the mind, and a few other of Robert anton Wilson's books (prometheus rising and quantum psychology). Might need to have a look at the others too.

I just stumbled across a quote that reflects the stuff in this thread pretty well. don't know who said it though.

"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength."

that is an effing good quote!

Just stumbled upon the source of the quite. Eric Hoffer. Thought I'd add it before I forgot. That guy's responsible for a few good books. True believer for instance. It's on my shelf even. Was it in there he said it? Guess that measn it's time for a re-read...