much ado about nothing

In this bit was my review of Lee Morrisons Last Resort

Im removing it because I dont want people to associate this great bit of training material with a nonsensical debate the main protagonist of which felt so strongly about the validity of his ramblings he has since removed them. Quelle Surprise!

Anyway, good DVD, good instructor read the review in the general section

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this isnt a method of fighting its a "last resort" when youve fucked up and gone to a clinch to get back to
focussed precise shots to end the fight quickly or in your words:

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stay foccussed and price shooting is what you can do if you keep your mind together.

but to think you dont need or shouldnt bother to train the capacity to switch on the aggresion and go feral as well? well its fine if you make no mistakes but what about plan B?

which part of this review made you think

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What i like to say is.. martial arts simply cannot be throw away.

- who do you think is throwing martial arts away? me? Lee?

...then you have misinterpreted my review - its not a "blindly go berserk until he falls over" approach, which I am very, very much against as anyone familiar with what I teach knows only too well.

Skillful application of violence and aggression- key word being "skillful" meaning with skill developed over time through realistic drills and proper application of right tool to the right target at the right time.

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can't say i'm paraphrasing with surity Chulo.
but to piggy back on what i think i understand that Richie teaches is not to
throw away things like forms/katas (eg//martial arts school stuff), but to prepare to go outside the lines a bit--like raking/striking/pulsing your way through grappling/wrestling moves so they injure and disorient more than say a sports-move would.

i've seen the calm guys, i understand the sentiment...i've seen both versions, and fought (not many but enough to retain the experience) both versions... even in sports arenas, it has had a different affect on me, and others i've known. when i was young, even while losing fights, i remember demonstrating so much intensity that people who were essentually giving me a beating sort of got uncomfortable and started retreating--attempting to save face by half smiling while running off.

for myself. i'm more ill at ease with someone who seems to draw from some river of seathing hatred--while demonstrating skill as well.
maybe some people feel differently. maybe some people associate the quite ones with the deadly ones. or you're like me, and it seems more primal, with a hint of madness--a greater threat than the calculating and quiet variety. i can only draw from my own experiences since i'm a wee bit of a loner. but when i hear this stuff it, at least, rings way true for me.

Great addition to the dvd library it looks like......i have one question though.....seems there are two different pages on the website that dvd can be purchased.....one is more money than the other but they are both titled "The Last Resort"......whats the deal with that? I hope I purchased the right one.

Looks like one is a manual while one is a dvd set......problem is, is website is all messed up and links are wrong.....so really my purchase wasnt a mistake on my part it was a mistake on the website......if you click on the Store then "New DVD Homepage"....it will take you to the grid view of his dvd's for sale...if you click the Last Resort 4 dvd set, it takes you to the manual page.....for 20 euros.....but the dvd set is 50 euros......i just bought something i dont need or want....i sent him an email hopefully he will make this good and fix his site so others dont get screwed either

chulodogo wrote:

there s no plan B.

you have only one chance in one moment.
you need all of your focus to win.
there s no place for emotions, if you are really really well trained.

show your emotions is allways a form of weakness, you show your soul. if you dont show anything, it can get really scary for your opponent.

I totally disagree, not having a back up plan is lackadaisical at least and arrogant at worst- in what other field of endeavor be it business, sport, military whatever do the very best "players" not have a plan B?

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you have only one chance in one moment.

...In a Japanese sword fight maybe

Mate your entitled to your point of view but what you are saying in no way tallies with my experience of violence at all: only in films is the quiet emotionless one more frightening than the slavering psychopath.

Im not talking purely subjectively about what I find scary, Im talking about observing professional criminals to see what gives them pause and trust me: the only way the "strong silent" type wont be just discarded and ignored is if he carries a fat reputation based on delivering large heaps of violence. A lot of nasty criminal types are pretty thick and you really do have to make an impression that a "cold stare and confident demeanor" just wont make.

But anyway, thats really not the point of the DVD nor the point I was trying to make. The reason I love this DVD series is because unlike so many others it has violence at its heart. By that I mean it looks/feels like what I understand and perceive fighting to be about.

On a really good day fighting might be about delivering nice cool calm shots (usually to a less worthy opponent in fairness) but on a bad day its about grit, blood and snot.

Thanks for inspiring me to write what turned out to be a pretty fine assed post if I do say so myself



Cocktail, ah I wondered about that myself, I could of sworn I saw it cheaper too, didnt realise there was a manual too... I think if you follow the link in my email it takes you to the DVD page, IM sure Lee will sort it out for you.

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I really dont think you've understood this... its not about acting "big" at all, implicit in all of our SP work is the notion of acting "small", being invisible, being the "grey man" etc

To me this notion of controlled aggression tha manifests as a physical response is THE way to deal with getting gripped in a fight- the clinching range- not to grapple and mirrior your opponent but to go feral and get the fooker off you as quick as possible to get back to the range where you can see more (knives, other people, environment) and deliver your most expedient strategy: shots to the head with knock out potential

yeah mate it would be better to meet up, maybe one day I could get to Holland and train with you and your group- in the meantime though let me ask a couple of questions from one instructor to another:

-do you teach your students in a regular class to "die to the old and be fresh to the new" in the middle of a fight? I mean, how do you train? what do you teach them if it has no "structure" or no "form"? I like the idea of heigtening conscious awareness of the present moment and creating an environement in which students learn to improvise and act with spontaneity, but just exactly how do you go about that? If you have an answer- I will pay you to teach me!

-how do you advise students to deal with ending up in this range? Lee works from the presumption that if you are there then "you've fucked up", and thats pretty much my view point... do you teach clinching as a preferential range maybe?

-do you think there are more ergonomically effiecent ways for the human body to move and perform certain tasks or do you think its all just random movement dictated by the needs of the "moment"?


I know there are no absolute answers but its interesting to debate these points as I think these are some of the questions that hit to the core of what we are about.

I say again Chulo, I love the idea of workign with no structure

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to express yourself in freedom, you must die to everything of yesterday. From the old.. you derive security, from the new, you gain the flow..
words by bruce lee, but i believe its true.

Bruce Lee is quoting taoist philosophy... how did this manifest for him? In jeet kune do, didnt he give people a form? Yes... arent there a list of techniques and styles in his book the tao of jeet kune do? yes
so I know Bruce SAID this, its a very nice sounding philosophy but its manifestation I would fear would end up looking a lot like the unmentionable russian spetnaz free momevement style

There is more than one way to skin a cat (english expression sorry) but I dont think there are an infinite number of ways

Bruce Lee wasnt against forms and katas either, he believed in being cooked in a mould in order to break the mould (another stupid english expression, sorry chulo )

I did an article on this somewhere called "creating structure for spontaneity", I'll find it...

Basically... you need a structure within which to grow and THEN you can transcend it.... I think it was OSHO that said that transcendence implies "going through" not "avoiding".

Interesting

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...i never was on a debate team, and i'd be a lousy lawyer. but isn't this a mild loop--or some semantics, or some such thing. i get the feeling we're all in the grey areas comfortably waiting to strike (like a snake).

Chulo: you were saying keep forms and martial styles, and calmness. in the end i think you're saying keep calmness only (respectfully i say this).
Quote///
"you only react in a way, you every time surprise.


like bob say, in his dvd, he attack, let see what happens, he know you wanna grab him.
we train the same but without know anything."

What i think i hear as a response is IF all what you train to do doesn't work out, then plan B.

As you said in earlier stuff to me (which i appreciated) was:

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"@russel sage.
i hope you feel better know! dont feel shame or something about your loss.. everybody loss sometimes.. there s allways a better fighter. always.
but if you are in your moment. you are more likely to win."

To Summarize what i only think would allow some meeting point, if anyone wants one (ha ha):

if, in the event of fighting as you train to do...you are suddenly losing...since there are always better fighters. there is a way to get you out of the deep end of the pool, and back to safe ground, which is your fighting style
...it would be prudent to be like a wild animal long enough to get some breathing space. should this prove effective, why back up now...eat the fooker alive with the system that has put you back on the offensive, or conversely go back to your style and munch calmly.

it sounds like you know what you're doing (Chulo). i like what you write. i'm sure it translates to what you do. but it also sounds like you believe there are more dangerous fighters out there, ones dangerous enough to say, allow for a plan B contigency. i humbly think that you have enjoyed enough successes as a fighter, that you don't allow yourself the possibility of losing as a way to stay on top. as a teacher (me), i always find it hard but necessary to lead from the front...i used to not teach what i couldn't myself do--or havn't used. you were in the teacher's mindset when you instructed me that everyone can lose. i was in the students mindset when i accepted this fact. if you find yourself giving this advice...on occasion you may want to allow for it.

i hope you know that i say this in a friendly tone. and on occasion can be quite cheeky. but i assume from past entries, we can all handle it, and can still relate on many many issues.



that was meant to look hippy-ish. peace and love. hmmm. peace at least.
ha ha

...
koom-ba-ya...ma'lawd
koom-ba-ya...
oh'lawd...koom-ba-ya

sorry.
brain fart

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i see what you mean.
i don't really know if it has to do with the dvd (what i'm going to say), but what all this means to me is a matter of a psychological war being waged as well as a physical one.

so this part i'm answering only for myself.

when i first took instruction to fight, it was a step back for me. i wasn't allowed tried and true things that came naturally to me. but what i played with was projecting postures that i noticed people caved under. these postures were often like those chinese dieties (statues) that show ferocity and conviction--angry outward expressions. often in truth i was playing a head game and inwardly calm. like a hurricane that shows unruly chaotic anger on the outside, but has a calm center (calculating and knowing exactly what i'm doing to that person psychologically). i used to joke with close friends that i don't know if i'm going to karate, or kabuki theatre (however you spell that). these head games i used to play also had there place on the street. to me it was a matter of approaching a target on more than one front--to use a military metaphor. in other words, if i can fuck with someone's head, as well as take chunks out of them, why not. i might be able to make them feel off their game. many martial artists that i've known who have caved, have often faced people with less skill but a stronger and angrier will (as it also reflected their postures/expressions). i get what you're saying, it's just that i've seen many people get really jarred by pitbull display alone...much more (i think) if there's a calculating mindset at the helms.

is it possible that the calm you are referring to is in fact inward calm. because from the perspective of an attack, it sounds alot like we all really agree on afflicting as much, in as little time, in whatever manner...etc etc
whether it means moving fluidly like a stream (philosophically), i assume this still means going all out or we wouldn't all like the image of an atom.

is this the missing piece??? do you mean calm within and without? do you mean decisive moves with conviction, for better or worse, calmly. i don't think you do. i think you mean that your inward calm (am i right???) directs you to your target and (samurai credo) loses/wins accordingly. for better or worse.

but for me (and maybe this is just simply a case of agreeing to disagree... i say this on my behalf, not Richie's). i really believe that the code thugs buy into, reflects what they pride, what they ascribe to, what they fear. if you want to beat a thug, you have to be a bigger thug. i don't mean you have to rob and kill people. i don't mean you have to be an emotional basket case within. i mean you have to show them what they themselves respect and fear. almost like a dreadful cause and affect. maybe you have a level of skill that exceeds mine; it wouldn't hurt my feelings if you do. i simply feel that my best defense starts with my head. and ends with my limbs trying to make a dent. what i train for reflects what i've felt under pressure, what has affected my skills under pressure. maybe i haven't faced so many calm people and it affects what matters to me when it comes to a game plan. can't say for sure. i get the dog reference earlier. the barking obvious one vs. the quiet one with all out conviction. but reading the thread, we all agree on this. a low profile with explosive, unexpected level of skill. i'm still not convinced this isn't some semantic loop tied in philosophical word play (not as a game, but simply as a matter of communication being unclear). and i'm not sure you wouldn't bite someone if suddenly having a moment where you're sure you're on the losing end and something drastic needs to happen to make a turnaround. that would be fluid and reactive and instinctive...but also wildly animalistic as it translates to the opponent's subconscious--sending all sorts of 'ouchie--oochie' responses to their subconscious, of the variety that makes people back up from a rabid squirrel, but not a big labrador retriever .

then again, i'm lost, the coffee's worn off. i have to go back to work. i think we have more in common then not. perhaps you agree that you do what works in the moment. and that fluidity may also include something that doesn't necessarily look all that different from a rabid dog???

Russell, you crazy fucker! hahaha! yeah i think you've grasped it

Chulo, Im not really sure where you are coming from now, this thread was started by me to promote what I feel is good training material (Lee Morrison's "The Last Resort" in case anyone has gotten lost!) but what Im hearing from you is some frustration and maybe some anger

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about forget all you have learned, and give yourself to the moment, and let nature, God, decide who wins.
no fcking plan B.
you dont have time for plan B, if the fight has begun.

or it is a fight you can control easy anyway.


and in a war, the person with the most options win,
in normal day life also.

Ok first of all, you are making statements and swearing "no fckin plan B", which is a direct contradiction of what I am advocating in the initial post- if you want to disagree thats absolutely cool but there is a WAY of doing it, and you are now not observing that way. Lets keep it reasonably polite- the swearing doesnt bother me, the tone does.

Let me give you some perspective: imagine you make a post that says "I think Kali is good" and I below your post write "Kali is no fcking good" ...I think I could justifiably expect you to take offense, no? So please lets just be careful as you cant hear tone of voice on a forum.

Second of all, you have just written that "in war the person with most options win" but you dont advocate having a back up plan??

As to talking about "whoring your art" on the internet and finding my description of us being in a GOLDEN AGE (can you point to a time where inofrmation about martial arts styels was so readily available as it is now?) as being annoying- where are you coming from?
You found me on the internet, I have a website and I charge for my DVDs, so am I "whoring my art"?

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no more talking about plan A B or C. just be in the moment and trust your skill

Are you telling me to stop talking about making a PLan B? hahaha!


"be in the moment and trust your skill"
where do those skills come from?
do you take brand new students and gravely intone "be in the moment and trust your skill" ?
when you say "the triaining keeps going till the 2 cannot hit each other anymore." how are they hitting?
are they drilling specific techniques? if no what are they doing? if yes who trained them in the techniques?

Looking through your posts since you arrived on the forum there is a definite change in tone towards being a bit "didactic" and an increasing sense of exasperation.

if there is a problem or something that is frustrating you tell us what it is or if you would feel more comfortable then PM me

see, here I am observing your needs, now, can you please return the favour to me?
Im actually trying to promote some training material from another instructor that I found to be beneficial and you've pretty much derailed the thread havent you?

No harm no foul, I could always split the thread I suppose.

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...no worries mate

All i wanted was a fighting dvd. All i got was a soap opera! hahaha Just messing around. This is a decent debate but i think the thread should be split because it is completely off topic IMO. But what do I know