90-95% of streetfights end up on the ground!

HA! Anyone see the latest issue of Black Belt mag? Not sure if the UK gets the same issues we do. Anywho, some bored PhD decided to do a study on the myth that 90-95% of all streetfights end up on the ground. He reviewd something like 300 fight videos and came to the conclusion that approximately 70% will involve one person going to the ground and something 47% for both people going to the ground.

As far as I know the myth that 90% of ALL fights go to the ground initially stemmed from a study of police officers fighting, where naturally they will often take people down in order to cuff them. Reflecting that only 10% of the fights reported resulted in the perp being cuffed without going down. Memes spread quickly though, and mutate along the way.

Wow, finally that idiotic myth is busted! Now people are gonna stop telling me:
"Hey Tom, why are you still holding on to that outdated boxing nonsense! Haven't you heard yet that 95% of fights end on the ground! You gotta do BJJ like me..."

No more of those little BJJ weasels

ha ha ha ha ha. sorry. ha ha ha ha ha.
i used to be in this shotokan club--that trained hard and took itself seriously...well you know the deal, it
had good intentions. anyway, they'd bring this ground jui jitsu guys that 'train police officers in new york city'
over for a lab of sorts. we'd all be moving around like crabs, kicking at shins, yelling 'no no no'. ha ha ha ha ha.
whew!!! exhaling and crying and laughing really takes the wind out of you. 'no no no'. i did this class, and in
good faith would try and teach it--because i helped with this. but i have to say, i always grabbed someone's
leg when i was getting tired of the ritual and dragged them across the floor. i had to disguise this gesture by
remind everyone to kick low and fast or 'this might happen'.

i think those guys seemed pretty cool, like they might be able to really fight...in retrospect i think it was one of
those tradition things people don't question.

'no no no...heyyyyyy-yah'

None of the fights Ive ever been in went to the ground unless I took them there- "95% statistic" is and always has been total bollocks

good that its being challenged

no reason not to have a few tools in the range though

As RichardB said if they are looking at fights where police get involved, due to human rights CRAP, if the suspect gets out of hand they are taken into the "ground pin", if cameras are watching....if not.... fun time !!! As rich said, I too have experienced fights going to the ground but that is because they are taken to the ground by us....clearly sometimes after strikes by ASP's, gassed, non-compliant cuffing etc.

the majority of fights ive seen go to the floor, have been school kids and girls. sorry for not posting in a while, ive been busy with crap and getting wasted. im just learing to play guitar, so i took the guy down into the cellar as hes an avid cage fighting fan etc etc. 65 and the guy had a go of my heavy kick bag then proceded to show me where the sciatic nerve was... the 3 light kicks he gave me landed on the neve perfectly. for an old dude the guy looks to be able to outfight the majority of people i know lol. looks like he really twanged the nerve my leg feels like its starting to swell, or atleast it feels like its doing somthing out of the ordinary. well looks like ive got a hardened fighting and guitar teacher . the guy has worked in mental homes for the past 40 years so im guessing he knows a thing or two about controling people who dont want to be controled verbally and physicaly. Anything interesting i find out ill bring to the forum for further discussion, as im asuming that ill want to identify specific verbal and physical things.

much to do

I'm been a guitarist 21 years myself (where does the time go).
I've always notice a high proportion of guitarists train or have trained in martial arts.
maybe it's something to do with dedicated / deterimined characters suiting both pursuits.
maybe it's because between drunks in bars, jealous boyfriends who don't like their girlfriends eyeing you up and having to collect money from dodgey promoters, it helps to be able to handle yourself.
probably a mixture of the two.

I often use musical analogies when teaching martial arts.
learning core skills carefuly and thoroughly is like learning your scales and modes.
sparring and pressure testing like practicing with a band and jamming with other musicians.
all so your ready to face the real tests of both disciplines.

Wow. I've been playing guitar for 30 years myself. I actually have a degree in music management and performance and did graduate studies in guitar performance.

okay, since we're all opening up. i used to be in a band--i was a lousy guitarist but could sing. the joke was--from friends, that i was a good song
writer...in an attempt to not say anything about the playing itself. i did better when real musicians strung me along for the ride.

but what really struck a chord about these last few entries was the 'sciatic-nerve' reference. yikes. my whole beginning point to slightly adjust
my striking routine started with this 'fekker' sending electrical bolts up and down my leg. i have to step out in a weird way to still generate what
i want in my punches--and kick less (only left-side for something significant). i'm coming up with things that are based entirely around my annoying
limitations at present. i think chulodogo (i hope i got that right) said it right when he said you are meaner when injured. if i do to the ground
now, i'm fucked...i'm much more likely to do something really to the point, early on.

so if that referenced sciatic nerve kicker, and musician, knows any stretches, etc...to help minimize the pain--please pass it on.

this is a true story--and i really felt the lesson from it. i watched a pissy little bird go at something in a pond...and drown in the process (this
morning). i went to see if i could help it out--since i'm not completely heartless. it had tangled deeply inside the pond plant life with its tremendous
fluttering. good for flight, not for swimming. my lesson. stay in your element. i will not go to the ground unless it's to pick up an object and
ram it...well you get the idea.

Ive been a guitarist for about 10 years too

Btw "97% of statistic surveys are lies" so one of my friends always quotes lol

AdamM wrote:

I often use musical analogies when teaching martial arts.

Bruce Lee used a lot of musical analogies... being a cha cha champion infulenced him I guess

I use a lot of cooking analogies

hmm looks like there could be a link between the musical artistry and martial training. the guy (paul) came down today again and ended up telling me how he was kicked off a restraignt course due to being too heavy handed, then explained why they kicked him off because of a wrist control manouver. basicly they were trying to say lightly griping the wrist with one hand was wrist control, he begged to differ and used 2 hands locking half the arm twisting the wrist and dragging me to the ground lol, putting a knee over my shoulder. he also came out with alot of pain references between the hardening of your fingers for guitar and the hardening of yourself where fighting was concerned, once again another demonstation by grabbing his bicep and doing some crazy grip twist and tear thing, looked like it would hurt but he was totally un-phased by it explaing after a while of training your body becomes use to it, also linking this to a boxer, he doesnt think im going to punch, he just sees his opening and hits. basicly this guy apears to have developed his own NPL and from what im gathering a really good understanding of how everything works. i think ill be having alot more intersting guitar lessons off him lol

oops forgot to add, he also has developed another of the key things. he was telling me about how if you have to train to bathe somone in a mental home you have to practice on a doll basicly and how that seems all so straight forward, but when it comes into real practice it isnt. once again he surpised me! i need to stop underestimating people lol

rockinscott wrote:

Ive been a guitarist for about 10 years too

Heck, me too!

Got myself a band, with 2 albums out. We're making another one by the end of the year.

And yep, I too, use musical analogies when instructing SD.

Back to the main topic, in my region, most fights don't really end up on the ground. It's not in our culture, I guess. Probably because in our primary school backyards, we were more influenced by boxing, TKD, muay thai or some other sort of fisticuffs. Kids in my region, have for generations, been influenced by no-shadow flying kicks, iron palms, crocodile-tail leg sweeps, axe kicks to the head, one-inch punches, judo chops, bronze buttocks and what-have-you.

So it goes to mention that wrestling and grappling aren't really much utilized in backyard brawls where I come from. First its push, then it's shove. Then comes the flying kicks (which doesn't really fly, nor look like a kick) and iron fist punch (which dishes out pain both ways and looks like a bitch slap with a closed fist). Hence, not many fights really take to the ground. Usually, when one does go to the ground, it's cos he fell by himself.


Plus, there's an unwritten code of honour that states something like , "It's not manly to hit someone when they're down."

Most guys here, good and bad, abide by it.

Note that I'm talking about backyard brawls.

I believe that what a person picks up when he's young affects his reactions to certain circumstances later on in life.

So, if a wee lad picks up the mindset that a proper response to being on the receiving end of violence is to engage in a bout of frantic arm swinging and extending of the legs (over here, we call it "Going Cowboy". Seen any classic Westerns, lately?) , or mimicking Sugar Ray Leonard - bobbing, weaving and jabbing, or even emulate WWF's Ultimate Warrior and call up on some mysterious power from the sky to help him defeat his opponent (all the while remaining oblivious to the pounding he's receiving, haha~), then THAT is going to be stuck in the lad's head until something happens to change it.

Then again, different folk, different strokes.

As for me, I find that I've got to keep learning, and unlearing some stuff. Sometimes something happens that makes me question my actions. Other times, I see that my actions are seemingly redundant. Either way, don't stop questioning.

Ask, and learn.

But I gotta tell you guys. Learning is fluid.
Time is fluid.
Trends are fluid.
People are fluid.

15 years ago, you can depend on a guy not to kick your balls in a fight. Now you can't.

15 years ago, you can't kick a guy in the balls in a fight. Your honour won't allow it.

Guess what, now you can.

Everything changes. Trends, mindsets and people.

Move with it, and upgrade, or you'll be left behind.

Cheers, people.

never i went to the ground.. and i fought a lot.

i only go to the ground if it is sparring, or training, or playing with friends or something.. but on the street.. never

i watched also all the movies of bjj vs kunfu.. . bjj vs karate etc etc

i watched them clearly, and i never see the guy hit the gracie.. only wait till they got them down..
very very strange...

not that i doubt the skills of the gracies.. not at all!

but i find it remarkeble that they clame that mostly in my memory..

Sounds like straight up street fights very rarely go to the ground.

For me I have had a couple of times in a situation which is heading intimate, where I have said no and ment no, if the guy hadn't been a gentlemen I could have ended up starting a fight from a very bad position on the ground or bed.

Can you all comment on this situation. I know for you guys this isn't an issue, but for me it has been and could be in the future. For right now I am going to continue to train including the ground work as it increases my self confidence, but I would really love to hear some feedback on this. Thanks guys!

this is a very good reason why we're keeping ground fighting in our syllabus at my club. just over 50% of my students are female and fighting from disadvantagious positions, especially from the back with legs appart is vital.

The important thing to remember with this training is that, like with the stand up, it should be situational rather than sport focused. What I mean is we're not pissing about holding on, working for triangle chokes or kimuras. we're getting a hand round the back of the neck and throwing heavy elbows, punches and headbutts up to the attacker, then trying to scramble or reverse, followed by a flurry of strikes and up to the feet.

basically it's a determination to get to feet using furious striking, gouging and biting. We're also working hard on sprawling and deflecting takedowns to not get into that position in the first place.

Female self protection must have a strong focus on fighting from disadvantagious positions against stronger opponents to be any use. The difficulty actually lies in finding trustworthy male training partners who can give the right level of resistance, and aggression and obviously the level of physical contact required to drill this sort of thing. That's what I love about my club most. The trusting 'family' atmosphere we have.

A little late on this, but I play guitar as well. haha

About 7 years now.

AdamM wrote:

this is a very good reason why we're keeping ground fighting in our syllabus at my club. just over 50% of my students are female and fighting from disadvantagious positions, especially from the back with legs appart is vital.

Louise,
One of the best anti-rape defenses out there is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu...Learn the fundamentals and then incorporate them into actual scenarios women are most likely to encounter. This of course should not supercede awareness and threat recognition training.

Guys thank so much for the feedback. I am taking a street defense class now, and my instructor believes in all that AdamM said so I am glad to hear you guys agree with his thinking. I don't know that we had talked about working specifically to get to a standing position. Mostly we are working in incapacitate if in the city and if for some reason we get to a place where we are away from people we are training to kill. Yikes, it sounds so harsh putting it like that but if it is me or him, I want me to win, thank you very much!

VictorS, yep, my instructor comes from a Jiu Jitsu/MMA background and loves it, so we end up with a lot of that.

AdamM, "trusting" family atmosphere...I love it. I may have to suggest that in my class!!!

I think it's vital. If my girls can't trust me, then I can't work in the very close proximity necessary to do the job properly.

We've never advertised. You only get into our club by personal introduction from an existing member, and even then you're on trial. I need to know that a 16 year old female student of mine is in safe hands when working with my 25 year old male prison officer, or that my 30 year old barman is trusted by my 20 year old single mum.

of course, all that's easier given that me and my partner don't take any money from it. perhaps if we did it for a living then we'd have to advertise. As it is, the karmic rewards are plenty and payment in respect and friendship is plenty.

AdamM;

So this is still a hobby for you!! That makes all the difference.

Right now the class I attend is just the instructor who is 5'8" guy and about 11 stone and my other roommate who is 6'2"and about 18 stone. (I had to go and convert that for ya!!!) but lets his ego get into it. It would be lots of fun to have more guys in the class as I would like to try these skills out on folks. Trying them out on girls works, but isn't the same. Sounds like you have a great group training with you there!! That is very cool!!

I think the problem with statistics like this is that people think they are such bollocks, which I feel this one is, that they won't bother with ground training which is a complete mistake.

The reason this statistic is crap in my opinion, is two reasons:
1. Is this idiot counting hitting people and them falling to the ground as the streetfight going to ground level?
2. Go on machovideo and watch any of the fights on that, I will tell you that 75% of them never go to some ground floor fighting.

not sure hobby is the right word. makes it sound like we take it lightly.
coincidently. I'm 5'8" and 11st. My co instructor is a lot bigger and the lads in the group come in all shapes and sizes. There's between 10 and 15 most sessions and we mix up partners so everyone gets to test themselves against a variety of partners.

18 st of training partner who lets his ego get involved is a problem. That's no good for you or your instructor.