Hey Richie, do u have a psych answer for this question?

Canadian decapitation on a bus.
ttp://senshido.savi.ca/viewtopic.php?t=5495

"....Ok, 30 people on a bus panic and run for safety.
So why did the whole herd run the other direction and not ONE person bash this perp with a suitcase or something? Confused

Anyone have any psych insights ? ...."

Why is this phenomena so common Richie? what's ur take as an expert on human behavior?
W

hiya mate

Im not an "expert on human behaviour"- if I fail to correct you on a public forum people will rightly assume Im content with that title... which Im not

Im interested in human behaviour, I make a point of studying it... and that link wont work for me

people will tend to do what other people do, if the pack had attacked the attacker then other people would of felt inclined to help out... baaaah baaaaah the sheep are attacking me!

Quote :

They got everyone off, they guarded the door, and locked him on the bus that the driver had disabled. What else were they supposed to do? They guy was probably dead already, and engaging him might have just needlessly put more people in danger. They did what they could to contain the guy so he couldn't hurt anyone else.

I'm hesitant to monday morning quarterback a bunch of people on a bus who wake up (the attack was in the middle of the night, most people were asleep) to a psychotic gutting someone and sawing his head off.

from a forum member at senshido- i totally agree with this point of view, seeing someone getting slashed to bits and their head cut off would be a bit much for the average punter

Hi, not the right place for an intro I know. I might do one later.

I think I can answer this question because of something I experienced recently.

About two years ago there was a program on tv (I know, bear with me) about the flight landing in Manchester that came up short and hit an embankment or something. I did not see it but the next night at work some people were talking about it in range of my hearing. I was not focusing on the conversation and had a dreamy kind of 'alpha' state going on. At the time I was heavily engaged in a programme of martial arts descending from the Vunak train of thought, and nothing in psychology or NLP is new to me. I found myself dreamily following the course of what was being said, and they were on about the survivors talking about how everyone was trampling on everyone to try and get out because the flames were in the cabin.

Without consciously initiating the behaviour I ran through the routine I was using at the time and put myself in the situation, and sort of idly experienced what that would be like to get trampled and die in a fire, basically.

Then my specific thinking kicked in and something surprising happened: I ran through the same scenario with my girlfriend in the next seat. I have no children, so she was the resource anchor I was using at the time. I found adding that element produced a different (hallucinated/dreamed/idly thought) responce, involving all manner of evilness directed at whoever happened to be between me and the door.

Basically it occurred to me there were two dangerous places on that plane: in the fire and directly between me and the door. The difference was that anyone in the fire had a chance at surviving.

To be clear- I have not been in that situation and truly do not know how I would act in it. But I found it very interesting that adding an element that went beyond my own survival showed me something I would not have felt capable of otherwise.

The most honest assessment I can give of the OP's example is I would run like hell, and I believe I am pretty good against knives. But if you put someone I care about on the bus who might not be able to run.... different objective, different responce. I believe an interview with the occupants of the bus would reveal no significant factors against an immediate escape responce.

So psychologically speaking, ones own survival is usually the most important factor in a given situation only due to perceived self-limitations. Oppose that limitation with a factor which ranks higher than self preservation (in this case preservation of self at the expense of a loved one) and that limitation goes away. This has profound implications for those willing to investigate what I am on about.

The Badger

daringdoer wrote:

Canadian decapitation on a bus.
ttp://senshido.savi.ca/viewtopic.php?t=5495

"....Ok, 30 people on a bus panic and run for safety.
So why did the whole herd run the other direction and not ONE person bash this perp with a suitcase or something? Confused

Anyone have any psych insights ? ...."

Why is this phenomena so common Richie? what's ur take as an expert on human behavior?
W

Hi everyone,

"When there is an emergency, the more bystanders there are, the less likely it is that any of them will actually help".
It is called the "bystander effect". Have a look : http://changingminds.org/explanations/theories/bystander_effect.htm

I am pretty sure everyone has seen that happen

Happened just a couple of days ago. I was walking down the street and saw a dozen of people staring at something. Then I heard screams like "something serious was happening". That sound discharged some adrenaline in my body. I ran towards the crowd and saw a woman being seriously beaten the crap out by a man. I went in to stop the threat, grabbed the guy and pushed him away from the victim. As soon as he looked at me he put his hands in the air. I actually didn't have to use force against him, as soon as he saw someone intervent, he surrendered.

Conclusion : A dozen of people standing still and staring at a woman getting assaulted. Noone makes a move. People are waiting for someone else to act. While being affraid to stop "hands on" the violence unfolding in front of you is totally understandable, none of these people actually used their mobile phone and called for help. That is the "bystander effect" or "diffused responsibility".
Here the sad part is that it did not take much to stop that woman getting more blows ...

But in the specific case you mention, "people" (not "warriors") caught asleep by a cannibal with a long knife, have evacuated the bus, called for help and contained the killer. That is honorable for the "actors". I do not expect unarmed citizens of "developed countries" to do more.

Now if someone had been carrying a handgun, that person may have toured the killer Mozambique. But that is another story .

i think--but don't know, that people feel largely alone. and today's society quite
frankly isn't. there are places in the world, india & pakistan (i know this from
countless examples) that hoards of people will descend on the perpetrator with
surprising ferocity--(AND here i think is the main point) they know they do it
with absolute back-up. it's the rule. it's a given. it's almost a 'me first...i get him
first' scenario. one of my friends told me how they deal with shoplifters in pakistan
(no cops, no day in court...none of that)...they invite people in to have a go at him.
he knew me as a security guard that worked next door. another spoke of having
her purse snatched in india, she yelled "stop thief" and about a dozen table vendors
all beat the little @#$% with sticks. my friend told me if a car hits someone in india,
the crowd descends on someone. it is all about culture. either you are raised in a
culture that tells you, you are a piece of a larger puzzle and do your part. or you
are the individualistic sort who sees a scenario like this as, "it's him against me".
i fall in the middle, i'll involve myself if i think safety is affecting someone. a woman
screams and all of my buttons are pressed. i've run more than one person off for
this. if i think several young rich college boys have just had their bike stolen by
a group of thugs...erm, i feel like no one will back me up and it just isn't enough of
an incentive (i wish it were). my wife was mugged in fucking daylight by 3 or 4
young drop-out types and all stood and stared like it was the fucking jerry springer
show. i was so incensed when i learned this i went trolling--against my better judgement (no advisable) but didn't turn up anything (which was probably better,
with regards to the law, and my safety).

we brits/americans are a culture of individuals. when we act, it is from lack of
cowardice as it reflects an inner dialogue of 'if i alone fight that guy, or those
guys, will i prevail?' i've never once imagined people joining in to help me when
i've run a person off--i'm quite aware of people watching me, maybe even rooting
for me, but doing fuck-all.

i ran a man (me on foot, him in his car) through a traffic signal once. my brother
remarked he probably had a shit stained car seat for the spectacle. this was over
a woman. but i've seen young guys fighting, probably could have guessed who
was in the wrong, taken a look at the gathering crowd and rightly assessed who's
side they were on (the wrong person), and sort of stuck around only if it was going
to go too far. allowing an ass-whipping to take place. it's a hard decision to make.

Hi everyone,

Russell Sage wrote:

if i think several young rich college boys have just had their bike stolen by
a group of thugs...

If they were spoiled little fuckers I don't think I would make a move either .
I know of somebody (spoiled little fucker) who gave his scooter away because someone asked him to. The "thief" started half-serious but eventually went back home "motorized"... That's fucking embarassing. Anyway two days later Daddy bought him a new one.

Russell Sage wrote:

i think--but don't know, that people feel largely alone. and today's society quite
frankly isn't. there are places in the world, india & pakistan (i know this from
countless examples) that hoards of people will descend on the perpetrator with
surprising ferocity--(AND here i think is the main point) they know they do it
with absolute back-up.

What I noticed is that in "large urban areas" (London, Paris) where people don't know/don't care about each other, witnesses tend to not do much (apart screaming to "stop it" sometimes, women more likely, men helpless). However in the "countryside" they are more likely to act. It's like the "community" thing in some places in the USA, people look after their own. Also in small places where everyone knows each other, if something happens but you don't help, everyone will know that you are a twat and you will have to face the everyday consequences of it. At the pub, the grocery, ...
On the other hand if a lady is getting her purse stolen by a little punk in front of you, say in the West End (Central London), you can take the Tube and go back home North/South/West/East London, noone will know you didn't do shit. People will look at you the same way at the grocery. General indifference that is.

In some of our places the "social tissue" is obviously teared off but we are definitely not "clanic societies" like in Pakistan/A-stan anyway.

Talking about men I think we create more "pussies" in our "developed countries" than before. Chivalry is not much alive since women are finally our equals and we have to compete with them. Sad. But I'm not going to complain ...

Since I am a gentleman more for me !

Quote :

i've never once imagined people joining in to help me when
i've run a person off--i'm quite aware of people watching me, maybe even rooting
for me, but doing fuck-all

Same here.

On a lighter note, when I was a teen I was sent to Poland on summer holidays. My polish cousin and his friends knowing that I was coming from "PARIS" (translation: I may be a spoiled useless capitalist pussy) thought it would be good to give me a warning.
There was some "violence" in the area. If we were to be attacked, no matter what, I would have to jump in the fight and help the others. Otherwise they would beat the shit out of me themselves later on and I would stay on my own for the remaining of my vacation. So I didn't really have the choice.

If I were to be assaulted today in front of a male "friend" and he wouldn't help. I think that after getting rid of the problem, still pumped up with adrenaline, I would knock him out as well or at least fucking slap him. Too bad that everything has a cost, no derogation for cowardice. Sorry dude .

But I must admit cowardice is very cheap/free(?) in "our societies" nowadays. I know that in regard to the law one can be sent to jail for not helping people in "danger", but I have never heard of such a case. Our general populations secretly accept they are little bitches so people won't get to jail for that.

In India/Pakistan/NameIt they kill their own wives/daughters/sisters/mothers ("honor crimes"), so guess what happens to people who don't jump in the fight ...

One would have to raise the "price of cowardice" such that it would not be affordable anymore. Just like my Polish cousin did at that time. Not by mean of force obviously but by creating/enforcing the law.

good point about the city vs. the country. i come from a really small
town. god help anyone if they were in the big city on didn't help someone
they recognized from that small small small place. community changes
alot of things. there was a nasty little hierarchy among the young males
growing up there, but i'm dead certain i could have relied on any of those
guys outside of that environment...no matter how we regarded each other
upon return. the family rule. your brother can beat you up, but no one
else can.

Quote :

I know that in regard to the law one can be sent to jail for not helping people in "danger", but I have never heard of such a case. Our general populations secretly accept they are little bitches so people won't get to jail for that.

interesting thread, has anyone got any references for this? Im pretty sure i remeber seeing a news artcile about France having a "good citizenship law" that punished the indifferent/lazy or cowardly

Russell, I read about that happening in India in the book Shantaram (anyone read it? its dead good you know) are there any news articles/ references to it online?

Bit of devils advocacy: when I started out as a doorman, I was appalled by the casual indifference doormen showed to men beating up their girlfreinds, after a few years and getting attacked by the woman EVERY SINGLE TIME I intervened, my sense of chivalry deteriorated... any input on this one?

Well while it could be some strange psychological dynamic, game thing, a more parsimonious explanation I've heard says it might have something to do with the adrenal state. But it might also be a combo at times. There's a lot of fuxed up software in a lot of people. Apparently this is also very common when police officers enter domestic abuse situastions.

If it's that normal, what's up? Instincts? (I.e., don't let the caveman that provides for you get beat up by the stranger. Better the devil you know...) Or some ingroup/outgroup thing? Is the woman pathologically naîve about the guy beating on her? You know, in the sense that she still loves him although he's abusive. "Oh he's just tired..." And that because of that she behaves like a girl might normally do if you attacked a boyfriend just minding his own business? Because there does seems to be a certain "type" of person that becomes abusive and abused. And they go back again and again. I don't know... Just some ideas.

Shantaram BTW is actually on my to buy list, but I need to dig through a pile of other books first. A book I just finished that is definitely a good read is "Meditations on Violence" By Rory Miller.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Meditations-Violence-Comparison-Martial-Training/dp/1594391181/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219429871&sr=1-1

One of the best books I've read so far. Very little discussion of technique. Hardly any. And loads of reality, adrenaline, psychology and good concepts. If you were only going to read one book in your life on violence this would be a good choice.

Hi everyone,

Quote :

[...]getting attacked by the woman EVERY SINGLE TIME I intervened[...]

That's a classic. Pathetic. One can ask anybody in the "security industry" and hear countless of stories. I know it surpises naive "modern knights" a lot when it happens . So much for "chivalry" . But obviously not an excuse to not separate such a "lovely" couple.

Quote :

has anyone got any references for this? Im pretty sure i remeber seeing a news artcile about France having a "good citizenship law" that punished the indifferent/lazy or cowardly.

Regarding French law :

Quote :

Article 223-6 du code pénal :

Quiconque pouvant empêcher par son action immédiate, sans risque pour lui ou pour les tiers, soit un crime, soit un délit contre l'intégrité corporelle de la personne s'abstient volontairement de le faire est puni de cinq ans d'emprisonnement et de 75000 euros d'amende.

Sera puni des mêmes peines quiconque s'abstient volontairement de porter à une personne en péril l'assistance que, sans risque pour lui ou pour les tiers, il pouvait lui prêter soit par son action personnelle, soit en provoquant un secours.

Source : http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do;jsessionid=49D742DB3537157D8E8DEC517342FBEF.tpdjo12v_2?idArticle=LEGIARTI000006417779&cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006070719&dateTexte=20080823

My attempt to a translation :

Quote :

Article 223-6 of the "Code Penal" :

Whoever can stop by his immediate action, without risk for himself or other parties, either a crime or a felony against the physical integrity of a person, but voluntarily refrain from doing so is punished by a five years sentence and a 75 000 euros fine.

Will be punished by the same sentence anybody who voluntarily refrain to rescue a person in peril and whom could have helped either by his personal action or by provoking a rescue, while there were no risk for himself or other parties.

While this law applies to all citizens, in "real life" only the police or paramedics could be prosecuted.

Interestingly enough if someone wants to suicide and one doesn't intervene, one could be arse penetrated in jail as well. On the principle that :

"While one puts oneself voluntarily in a perilous situation, its does not dispense others from rescuing that person. It is a "human" duty to protect someone elses life. Must be prosecuted for non-assistance to a person in danger, the defendant whose behavior showed his intent to not rescue the person he knew was in danger. The defendant's own conceptions regarding "ones freedom to choose ones death", only constitutes a mobile without influence on the defendant's penal responsability."

That is what a judge had to say in Paris on the 28th of November 1986. But I guess only "haters" would prosecute you for that.

France "Home of the Human Rights" trying to make funky laws. But they don't enforce them, no room left in jail. They let pedophiles out who only get prosecuted for the same crime one month after they were freed.

So actually they won't put someone who let you bled to death in jail. Not even a fine.

This is NOT Sparta ...

Quote :

Bit of devils advocacy: when I started out as a doorman, I was appalled by the casual indifference doormen showed to men beating up their girlfreinds, after a few years and getting attacked by the woman EVERY SINGLE TIME I intervened, my sense of chivalry deteriorated... any input on this one?

I know what you mean.. I haven't been attacked by a woman yet which is good. But after having alot of women lie to me and 'turn on the waterworks' to try to get in and bullshit me.. I can see myself being less 'tolerant'.. I don't know how to really put it.. like for example a girl asked to leave for giving her id to someone else to use (how dumb, she walks in, about 2 minutes later another girl walks in with her id).. and she was like 'can I go back in to get my bag'.. and I just look at her with no expression and say 'no'.. because though it could be true.. alot of times that has happened and i've let them in just to have them go and hide inside somewhere and not leave.

What i'm trying to put across is before I would of felt bad that her bag is in there, but now having so many of them lie and talk shit that feeling isn't usually there anymore.

But I do see myself becoming less 'casual' about violence in general.. and that is something i've been thinking about and will post about in another post.. as its something I want to look at, as i've seen several changes in myself from doing doorwork.

-Ben

regarding myself and chivalry,
mine took a drop after (against my better judgement) trying to help the odd female i knew (by listening at first, and making my presence
known second) who was having trouble with her boyfriend. what i noticed was alot of unhealthy addiction to the formula of honeymoon
faze, followed by a wee bit of subconscious baiting (on the girl's part), followed by resentment (of me) since at some point along the way,
i would assume they wanted out. not even blatent stuff, just me making a presence known like, "don't go too far mate". i hope that wasn't
to cryptic. i've recently seen alot of girls getting in guys faces, posturing in alpha ways. i get a little confused, and my chivalry wiring has
trouble computing the odd woman that looks as if she could give a guy a beating. it bothers me, because my brain is more compfortable
with the traditional dichotomy of macho and damsel. i do so hate shades of grey at times. i'm still wired to come if someone (girl) says
'help', but sometimes i'm not getting the adrenaline rightious cause rush that i've known and loved from coming to my sister's/mother's/
grandmother's/etc side.
if you catch my drift.
i hope i worded this right. it's the sort of subject matter one just doesn't want to word in the wrong way.

regarding myself and chivalry,
mine took a drop after (against my better judgement) trying to help the odd female i knew (by listening at first, and making my presence
known second) who was having trouble with her boyfriend. what i noticed was alot of unhealthy addiction to the formula of honeymoon
faze, followed by a wee bit of subconscious baiting (on the girl's part), followed by resentment (of me) since at some point along the way,
i would assume they wanted out. not even blatent stuff, just me making a presence known like, "don't go too far mate". i hope that wasn't
to cryptic. i've recently seen alot of girls getting in guys faces, posturing in alpha ways. i get a little confused, and my chivalry wiring has
trouble computing the odd woman that looks as if she could give a guy a beating. it bothers me, because my brain is more compfortable
with the traditional dichotomy of macho and damsel. i do so hate shades of grey at times. i'm still wired to come if someone (girl) says
'help', but sometimes i'm not getting the adrenaline rightious cause rush that i've known and loved from coming to my sister's/mother's/
grandmother's/etc side.
if you catch my drift.
i hope i worded this right. it's the sort of subject matter one just doesn't want to word in the wrong way.

huh???

don't know what happened with the double message. my computer is possessed

sorry. linda blair, stop it

...i'm adding stuff because i'm in between domestic duties (lunch preperation, etc).
i have scenes in my head as reference points from which to draw from:

1. after helping in domestic situations about 1/2 dozen times (half of those with my sister), i remember one time i got too
emotionally attached to the girls successful exit of her situation--i probably had a crush on her which i warn any of you
knight in shining armor IS NOT A GOOD IDEA. it makes you try and help too hard--and not admit what role the girl has in
it. and it makes the guy behave more. now they both avoid me like i'm the devil for almost rocking the 'good thing they
have'. there are many mental illness sides of this girl/boy battering stuff, not only on the part of the boy. sadly. so if you
find yourself there...do something when they ask, and i guess wait for them to ask. it's pretty frustrating.
2. the other day i saw a woman and man about to get into it (fight). just barely avoided. i was hovering--reluctantly, because
she was doing all that fucking head-pecking, barking, etc...looked about his size, and they both looked like at some point if
the wrong turn happened, they may both be after me ( ha ha ha). it's really confusing for me. i'm sort of thinking, "oh fuck,
i really don't want to but..." instead of, "there's no need to fear...underdog is here!!!" w/accompanying theme music.

Well kind of off topic.

But notice how LOTS of guys are becoming more feminine and girls are becoming more masculine and aggressive?

Its unfortunate and due to feminism and other causes and it is fucking up the world.. and it frustrates and confuses me to see hot girls with these little skinny, feminine looking guys.

And it seems the girls get used to pushing them around and being dominant which isn't natural and they find it hard to handle when a guy doesn't give in.

A few times i've had girls go off at me because I haven't put up with their crap and i've had to step it up and let them know i'm not going to take the shit..

In my experience they hate it at the time (or pretend they do) and go crazy.. but then after that they are attracted..

Theres one for Warren

The subject of the world being feminized is past the scope of this post.. but it helps explain what your talking about when you mention girls who look like they can kick the guys ass..

-Ben