What's ur analysis of this UK altercation, mistakes seen, lessons learned, what u as defender would have done?

Yes armchairquarterbacking is 20/20 percfcetion in hindsight but is better to learn from other people's mistatkes than you're own....My hang up was that the altecation occured at the defender's home ..ie the skinhead knew where the mark lived= known quantity for revenge attack...So my intent was divided between befriending him or putting him down which would have resulted in me worrying about future revenge attacks and looking over my back for x monthes?


Here's a vid a pulled off another board. One that is insanely instructional, both in terms of pre-assualt indicators, and too, what NOT to do in response to them.
Watch the vid and see if you can name all the identifiable behaviors on the part of the BG, indicating his inevitable attack, and thus, why preemption should have been employed.
Then, list all that the GG did wrong. And there is one hell of a lot of that too. Yes, he came out on top in the end. But, if we approach this as an exercise in what we would hopefully do in the same situation. We can see if our training is spot on.

Learning from SP home attack caught on vid...what did mark don wrong? and What would you have done differently?
http://senshido.savi.ca/viewtopic.php?t=5312

ta
Warren

very strange clip. GG is obviously trained. that doesn't look like a fence, it is a pre-thought out fence and a trained strike.

why take so long to deploy that fence and strike? Why allow the bad guy to get away with so much?

EITHER
denial about the situation

OR

some other factor we're not aware of such as
guy has a reputation for torching houses / retributions against familiy / property / etc
guy who closes the gate at the end is an accomplice known for similar
GG is aware of the camara / witnesses

It's odd. there's something significant, we don't know about.

good strike in the end and unlike what the first respondant on Senshodo said, I think he did well not to start jumping on him. He used the minimum level of force required to deal with the situation.

I'll have to agree with the previous posts. There was definitely something odd about the scenario which would lead me to believe this altercation was a result of some previous encounter and maybe whatever that original issue was may have factored into the mindset of the good guy. The bad guy was a pure poser. Exactly how Richie always describes it. The posturing, pushing etc. Trying to build himself into a state of rage, waiting for the victim to start back so he can feel self justified in violence. Pure poser. Both guys had dozens of opportunities to strike fast and hard. Obviously we see the bad guy is working off ego and was just trying to intimidate and talk 'big' to the black shirt guy so that he can go off feeling all satisfied with himself that he's the 'big' man. What the issue was with the black shirt guy, we can only speculate. Maybe, earlier, he did something wrong, some unintended or intended 'diss' to the bad guy, and this hampered the good guy from getting into a mental state of justification to fight. Although, with all the 'almost' attacks by the bad guy, the black shirt guy should have had more than ample justification to end this threat to his safety. Maybe the black shirt guy just doesn't know how to turn that rage switch on, that savage mentality that you need to turn on when your life is threatened. Lucky for him this incident ended this way. Next time, with that 'too calm' attitude, he may not be so lucky.

Really interesting clip there. Just wondering, that stance in the doorway with hands clasped infront, almost formal, is that a sign of someone with professional doorman training? His body language and posture looks like he is making sure the BG can't get into the house, he is blocking the door completely at all costs - protecting someone inside maybe who this BG has the issue with? All 'what ifs' and guess work but it's a good scenario to look at. I'd be quite happy if I could manage myself and my temperament as well as that - do what needs to be done. Saying that though, I wouldn't like to think I'd let someone just grab me round the head and for my switch not to click in what is a really dangerous situation!

I don't think the guy is that trained at all. I think he has a vague understanding of martial stances.
I come to this conclusion because it took him a long time to react or defend himself (he allowed the guy to get a choke on him at one point and kept his hands lower than his aggressors constantly), the blow that knocked the guy down was not hard enough to knock him out and could easily have been thrown as the aggressor didn't expect it and was constantly open.

I would have fenced like he did at the beginning, but as soon as he got close I would have grabbed him by the throat and slammed his head into the wall, following it with kicks and punches.

One thing did strike me as odd was that he's standing in the door and never makes any effort to walk away from the situation. I've seen this before at college, where people are scared but they just put an angry face on and kind of stress it out in their head and just stay still. Then they may scream and shout and get angry but never physical. Very bizarre.

Yeah, I think that the Skin's profane apeshit in your face verabal aggression and threats on the GG's mind backed by BG's aggressive body posturing simply frightened/intimadated the poor bastard so much that he was rooted to the ground with fear/denial...in the precontact phase...Then when Skin got all physical with him, GG snapped out of denial and did some karate stuff.

Lucky for GG, that the skin was a punk and didn't go physical immdiately after his verbal assault on the GG's mind that froze GG like a deer caught in car's headlights. Wonder if the skin ever came back with revenge attack...Hope GG is ok.

Learning to deal with the precontact phase of an assault eg verbal threats and the post contact talking to LEs and revenge attacks is not covered enough in post SP syllabus
Warren

Hark at you nice people who have never had to live on a rough estate!
"Beat him up!" ???

Im afraid that one wont work here

my answer on senshido:

Quote :

Hi Guys

Warren was kind enough to post a link to this thread on my forum.

This attack took place in the area that Im from, its a council estate either near or in Liverpool, the accents are clear.

The guy in black does have some martial arts training, he may even be an instructor who is known as such. He may have had a falling out with this local lad from his estate who wants to challenge him.
Guy in black knows that he is being watched by everyone on the estate.
What if this kid comes from the baddest family on the estate or his dad is a nutcase or this kid is just from the local crew who will put your windows in at 2 in the morning or maybe even attack your girlfriend while your out at work.

Everyone on the estate will know exactly when you go out, where you shop, where you train. Liverpool is a pretty small place and people talk.

If the guy can let people know he used the absolute minimum of force he might get away with a rock through the living room window, but I imagine in this case it will be much worse as he humiliated the lad. He will probably be jumped by a group in which case his wing chun skills might not hold up under that kind of pressure.

I feel genuinely sorry for anyone who is put in this position, hands tied by scumbags who know the game and how to play it.

This situation is won by building allies within that community not by physical/psychological techniques.

That being said I personally could not have someone get their face that close to mine but I have let local rats get away with stuff that I would of beaten the shit out of them for if we weren't living on each others doorstep.

Ive lived in Everton, trust me, fighting them is not going to help, its what they want, it gives them the excuse to ante up on you. You've got to make allies.

Warren, he's not a "skinhead" as such, he's a scouser- thats just how young lads dress in that area, I'll show you when you come over for your special foofoo training

AdamM wrote:

very strange clip. GG is obviously trained. that doesn't look like a fence, it is a pre-thought out fence and a trained strike.

why take so long to deploy that fence and strike? Why allow the bad guy to get away with so much?

EITHER
denial about the situation

OR

some other factor we're not aware of such as
guy has a reputation for torching houses / retributions against familiy / property / etc
guy who closes the gate at the end is an accomplice known for similar
GG is aware of the camara / witnesses

It's odd. there's something significant, we don't know about.

good strike in the end and unlike what the first respondant on Senshodo said, I think he did well not to start jumping on him. He used the minimum level of force required to deal with the situation.

I was on the right track then

given all the other factors that could have been involved, which only the people in the clip would understand, i don't think he made that many (if any) mistakes.

he did a good job of not showing any weakness or allowing himself to be intimidated.

i do think he let the guy get too close far too often though. personally i wouldn't have let him touch me and especially not hold me round the back of the neck.

all round he did ok though.

sorry to dig up this dead donkey. i concur what rich said about the entire scenario on an estate. as for the choking and getting too close part:-
the skin guy wanted to intimidate and looked like he would rather attack inanimate objects, also he was pretty skinny. it doesnt seem much of a bad thing for the black t guy to let himself get choked, it stops the guys irratic arm movements and you know where both his arms are going to be, gives you somthing to work around, you dont need to hold and beat them, it gives you 2 free hands to smash away.
with the couple of shovs was the guy guaging how far he needed to shove the skin guy and step in for a strike? guessing he was light as he looked and struggled for balance saw an ideal opening as its out of his porch and putting the skin guys back to that fence.
did seem like caught in the headlights tho.
when the skin guy shoved him he seemed to move more than the target? whats the deal with that then? how does it work? i couldnt see what his hands were doing just the skin guy flying backwards?
black t guys strike was interesting, just enough to stun the guy as he seemed unable to stand and tryed to crawl.
didnt think the goading after flooring the guy was a good idea personally, not outside your house, not on an estate and not when there are lots of whitnesses to exadgerate and procrastinate.

Interesting how some think the GG's actions are a result of control and experience, while others think exactly the opposite. I fall into the latter camp myself.
Allowing an aggressor such as that (one who I would have at least 100lbs on), to get that close, I would view as stupid. Allowing yourself to be grabbed/held?! Crazy. At one point, he even takes his eyes of the BG to look at the Garbage bin!
Those who take the view that this represents control I just don't get. To think this way, and I have encountered this before with TMA guys, is to believe you are omniscient to all the possible variables that can occur within that altercation, and too, are totally in control of them all. To me, this is a crazy way to look at things, and one only arrived at via extensive training against individuals who in no way at all try with everything in them to knock your block off, and instead, are nice and compliant and predictable.
Play this game, watch the vid and imagine you are the BG. How many times and how badly could you hurt the GG while he has his hands hovering over his dick? My favorite is when GG turns briefly to look at the bin. POW! Instant blind side.
As a guy familiar with Senshido principles, at one point, BG even has a perfect anchor!
So, GG keeps his hands down. Stands square to BG, meaning one hard shove would see him flying backwards (have done this to aggressors myself, its easy and fun).
If you can, download some of Geoff Thompson's animal day training. You will see exactly the same scenario played out, but this time, with the fence up and a proper spacing of feet, rather than standing square. As a result, even when the aggressor launches an attack, GG is easily able to maintain space and so, safety.
Now there are those who have worked security, who believe that such omnipresent control is possible. A belief reinforced by the times that they have used it successfully. Yet having worked there myself, I've seen enough guys get truly f'd up by the attack they didn't see coming. One, a lot of the times brought about by overconfidence.
For myself, it makes far more sense to stack the deck in your favor.

its a horrible situation and one that noone wants to really think about, but the simple fact is that sometimes you are between a rock and a hard place... the black t shirt guy certainly wasnt in control of the situation, neither was skin head. We arent privvy to the full facts here and there are far worse fates than allowing a little divvy to scrag you a bit to prove how tough he is. I hope none here ever has to experience allowing that. Harmful to the old egotron so it is.

The only helpful SP advice I can think of is that if you are living amongst criminals your best SP is to make freinds and quick.

Without getting "had off". Really tricky.

If anyone thinks Im being a bit conservative my advice is this: move to Everton in Liverpool or the North End of Birkenhead (where this scenario comes from) and let me know how you get on!

Glad I read this. I was starting to think I'd turned into a pussy after reading comments on various forums from non-Brits basically saying: just 'beat the crap out of any yob bothering your house and show 'em what's what'. It doesn't work like that here.

Extricating yourself the best way you can, even by giving away a small victory e.g. allowing yourself to be pushed around, a bit of minor vandalism, could save your family becoming the main interest for a gang of 50 local yobs. Once they decide you're no better than they are, and you want to play the tough guy, you could have a war on your hands and no normal life. And they're probably going to win - even if they have to get a friend of a friend to burn your house down.

But it's interesting that this scenario doesn't seem to computer for Americans. What's different? Is it our police are useless and don't back us up? I don't know.

Hi BB

a lot of things compute differently between us and Americans in many ways and on may subjects- from a sociological point of view I find it fascinating

to the point where I find I cant watch the material of American instructors, it drives me nuts, the basic pressupositions of casual violence are just very different and often incredibly naive- mayhap because this is a hevaily armed country where people are much more careful about casual violence, so if its going to be violence it will be of a level and type that would leave our heads spinning

did you read about that AMerican kid who got shot trick or treating last week? a guy who had been robbed and shot previously unloaded a full clip from an AK through his front door thinking the robber were back when the trick or treaters rang his doorbell

how would scally council estate tactics work if there was the threat of being shot? I dont know

or maybe we just havent heard on the forums from Americans who live in the equivalent social environments, where being targetted as a result of the heroic "ass whoopin" you dealt out would be an issue

the other factor is that many people who post on forums are young and inexperienced and saying what they would like to do in a given scenario rather than what they would do

call me cynical

Interesting read here in this thread.

I find the differences between our social environments fascinating and what I love most about this forum and others like it.

Richard Grannon wrote:

What if this kid comes from the baddest family on the estate or his dad is a nutcase or this kid is just from the local crew who will put your windows in at 2 in the morning or maybe even attack your girlfriend while your out at work.

Fortunately I do not live in such an environment and I have no idea how I would deal with such a thing. Frightening to think that you would always have to be cautious of what you say, do and maybe how you look at someone, for fear of retribution at any hour and against the weakest member of your family.

Question: Is the term estate a general term referring to neighborhood or does that also describe a general low income area or slum/ghetto. Also is it common place for thugs (for lack of better term) to dictate the happenings of their area unchecked?

Based on information in this thread, I can understand why GG potentially did things the way he did. I have my own beliefs in dealing with such dirt bags but it is based on my environment and therefore not really applicable to this environment. Besides I don’t need to add any fuel to the notion that Americans just want to shoot’em up. Although…