Knuckledusters.

Hiya mate, im interested in your experiences and thoughts on knuckle dusters. There seems to be a lot of conflicting thoughts on them, just wondered about your views. Cheers.

...just me maybe, but my opinion on things that assist you that aren't simply things you grab from the environment can be a handicap. when i was young, i used to carry a knife--only with defense in my mind, but the problem was, for me, it felt like my whole offensive plan (meaning the best defense is offense). i was as limited as my access to it. i felt insecure if it was deep in my pocket. gestures to find it (in retrospect) seem like telegraphing. there are times you have to worry if it's in your pocket (in d.c.--u.s.a, metal detectors are all over). if it's in your pocket, it is questionable. alarm bells all round.
-rus

hiya mate

thoughts:

-dusters cannot be slipped on quick enough when it goes off, so really they can only be used as a premeditated weapon

-dusters hurt your fingers like fuck on impact, i suspect they could do some serious damage

-dusters cut, much worse than a razor would, leaving a big mess and lots of blood but not necessarily a KO

-dusters are big, heavy and noisy when slung onto tarmac

-dusters are very illegal in the uk, the jail time to effectiveness ratio as a weapon dont add up

-final thought, a friend once told me: if your going to use one which you never ever should, use slashing motions to the head and face, not punching ones

hope this helps

p.s. Ive always been a fan of plain, good quality leather gloves

I heard that about the slashing before, i have also heard some people advocating hammer-fist type blows. I always think that they look dangerous for the hand, especially as peoples hand and finger sizes vary.

Where the leather gloves used as a slap across the face to initiate a gentlemanly duel?

Seriously though thanks mate, some interesting points.

A good mate of mine off the door does the duelling slap with weighted lead shot leather gloves as a "tester" when people are gobbing off at him.... it looks innocuous (and a bit foppish) to witnesses but the reciever knows about it!

Haha, i can only imagine!
Just out of interest, when you were working the doors was there any particular weapon that people tended to carry? I mean the "customer" by the way, not the doorstaff.
Sorry for going off subject mate, thanks in advance.

No.

Ive been attacked with bottles a couple of times in Liverpool and once in Tenerife- no major harm done, just a bit of a lumpy head.

There is a tendency for some people with certain aspirations to carry knives and guns into clubs, fuck knows what for, in my experience they hardly ever use them.

Other than that Ive been attacked with things like around like ashtrays, shoes, glasses and one of my mates got a bad beating with the door rope pole.

Thanks for the fast reply, i think that shows how objects not designed to be weapons become them through plain violent intention. Similiar to the point your mentioned in the Mick Coup interview regarding Tony Soprano and household items, the person might not have any training but there still a dangerous nutter. Do you do much weapon work yourself mate? Stick, knife, etc? Cheers

ha! that Tony Soprano scene where he sprays joe pantoliano in the face

reminds me of a thing that happened in Tenerife with a group of lads who upset the boss of our door firm... he found the hotel they were at went in with a couple of his lads (not me i wasnt involved) and tied up the two main troublemakers, cut them all over their arms and faces and sprayed the cuts with mosquito repellent, made their mates watch

I have used weird things in fights I suppose.
I picked up a dust pan and brush to give some one a hiding with once.
A big plastic chair... mmmm.... a small folding fish gutting razor from HK... a pool ball (not in a sock just in my hand)... all kinds.... like you say it s the will to do harm that counts.
Also used a deodarant spray on someone, but was told afterwards that if enough is inhaled it can collapse a lung, so I dont recommend it unless your pretty serious

Didnt she use some kind of spray in "True Romance" fight scene with James Gandolfini?... who of course plays Tony Soprano, ha! Coincidentally the boss of the firm in tenerife was nicknamed "T" as well

Mate, in answer to your question, I just work on unarmed stuff and trust that should a bat/ steering wheel lock, hammer or kitchen knife find its way into my hands I will be at an advantage... if they dont, it makes no difference...

If you havent worked you basic movement and skill through unarmed training properly first and if your movement is rubbish:( ie you have no speed, skill ,strength, reflexes, determination to use that weapon) having a weapon probably wont do you much good anyway, unless its a gun and your a good shot and youve got room... and even that is no guarantee.

Plus, bear this in my mind: I got threatened some weeks ago by a DJ who said he would pull a gun on me, I remember thinking: Oh God PLEASE let this silly fucker whip one out now, it would give me ALL the justification I need to stamp all over his head (Ive been after him for years) as he reached over and down towards his bag to try and bluff me, the tit.

Honestly try getting someone who NEVER trains and give them a rubber knife and ask them to attack you with it as fast as they can, anything works against a total spaz!

So, NO

I dont recommend much weapon work, and speaking plainly?

I think its mental masturbation for nerds most of the time.

If your not a policeman, soldier, "gangsta" kidda lar or a body guard wtf do you need it for? how you going to get it out in most situations you will need it? how will you get away with it?

Please dont kid yourself that a Kubotan or a Pepper Spray is going to make a difference as an equaliser it isnt... in the situations where a kubotan or pepper spray would stop an attacker, I would say you werent under real threat from a dangerous attacker anyway, why didnt you just knock them out?

Personally when I see martial arts people with a weapon fixation I tend to think of them as a bit of a silly fantasist/shithouse

(shithouse, scouse term, means person of little confidence in their ability who needs props; a coward)

An idiot Ive done work with suggested to me not long ago I help him beat up some barstaff on a door he worked on and got kicked off of (he got jumped on by the barbacks after showing off and trying to teach them "cage fighting moves" , he fell over and hurt himself, and blamed the staff, the nincompoop) with cs gas and batons.

I remember thinking at the time as he suggested it to me:

"Your supposed to be a triple hard doorman/bodybuilding/cage fighting ex bodyguard tough guy: use your fucking hands you lazy twat!"

and also "what do you need my help for? they are only barstaff, do it on your own!"

Obviously I told him to stick his ridiculous idea up himself. Needless to say, Not long after that I thought it wise to choose to stop working with him. Quelle surprise.

I would be dissapointed in anyone who trains my stuff who scrabbled for a kubotan when threatened. Rubbish.

Do it Tony S style and hit them with a frying pan or a metal kettle (joke, obviously... hitting someone with anything other than your ferocious chi is clearly gay)

You want an equaliser? walk around with a clawhammer and a can of deodarant up your tshirt

Yeah, how to win friends and influence people-

Im joking, dont carry weapons, unless they are real ones for a proper purpose (and you are on in the military or police of course)

Legal weapons/ "equalisers" are for sissies.

Its not a proper fight unless you've got bits of their DNA mashed under your nails, stuck between your teeth and spattered across your italian leather slip ons.

Haha! My views about weapons are rather similiar to be honest, im always amazed how some people involved in self-defence are a bit obsessed when it comes to "Tactical folders" and "Industructable pens" all a bit too James Bond for me! Ill add that True Romance fight to the movie clips thread when i get chance.

having said all that, I think Bruce Lee made the point that working with weapons improves your unarmed skill... I would say from the weapons of trad japanese martial arts, it always made unarmed stuff seem 5 times easier... so perhaps as an attribute developer?

I dont know enough about the subject to even attempt teaching it though.

I do know than in traditional Escrima, you have to become expert with a stick before you receive empty hand training.

I think, as you discussed with the clinch at our seminar, even though it's not your prefered range, some core skills with / against basic weapons, in the clinch and even on the ground can be useful.

All right, lots of insight here in this thread.

Let's swing back to the original topic, shall we?

Knuckledusters or brass knuckles are illegal in many countries. Mine inclusive.

I have not had the occasion to use one in a real toss-up, mainly because during the times I had one, I didn't have enough time to slip it on.

I did, on a number of occasions, have used a carabiner (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabiner ) to bonk a few heads and limbs.

I usually have one hanging on my left belt loop of my pants to keep my keys on (I only have two keys, haha).

My carabiner's all black, semi-hollow body with a sprung gate. It's more of a rounded rectangle than a balloon shape. Not fit for climbing use.

During the times that I have had to use this very useful artifact, I just slip my fingers in the carabiner and rip it off my belt loop. Of course, the damage was there. To the belt loop, I mean, but that can be mended.

I don't recall much of what I did with it, but I do remember clobbering (hammer strikes), hooks, jabs and kubotan-style strikes. Pretty mean strikes, I might add. In a scuffle, you don't really have much time to say, hit a pressure point, aim for the neck or whatnots. While you're busy aiming, someone might be delivering a one-two to your kidneys. I also remember hitting soft-tissue areas, but that didn't seem as painful as hitting joint areas with it.

And the good thing is that you can still employ open-handed techniques even with a carabiner in hand. Oh, and you'd give a lad a hell of a surprise if you slapped him with that said hand.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

Asfi do you think the object was the deciding factor or your will to use anything to hand to do someone some damage?

Richard Grannon wrote:

Asfi do you think the object was the deciding factor or your will to use anything to hand to do someone some damage?

Definitely the latter, mate but not in all actuality.

In the crunch, I hold to the principle that anything solid in grabbing range, is something to use against the other guy. There's no such thing as fighting dirty, as a real fight's not fair, innit?

In my previously disclosed experiences, it was the carabiner that was closest, and most easily accessed. If I didn't have it, I'd most probably grab the next best thing, maybe the rope pole, or a chair, even another chap's hands or shoulders (this makes for quite an amusing story, but perhaps, for another time) to use in the tussle. Anything to inflict more damage than what the other guy can dish out, or dealing enough damage to negate the assault.

Back to the question. IMO, the deciding factor was to get out of the scrap alive and well, by any means possible. Be it unarmed or equipped with a 5 feet long tunafish, keep one's head on one's shoulder is top priority for this fellow.

These are my knuckledusters.
They don't hurt when I punch hard surfaces, and haven't bent yet.
I imagine they would open a cut on someone, especially hitting the cheekbone or forehead, but I haven't had to use them on anyone.

I do know people who carry the "old school" type, with big openings for the fingers so you can slide them on quick. Those will definitely cut open skin. All of them are illegal to carry where I am. I do think legal ramifications are important, but not as important as my life.

Then again, I think it's important to be able to take care of yourself if you find yourself without your weapon of choice. So yes, train empty handed. Train with a weapon too. I sure the hell would rather have a knife or blackjack or any kind of equalizer against 3 guys than try to fight them off with nothing. Even steel toed boots can be helpful. Just my opinion.

To be clear, I am NOT saying that you should avoid empty hands training. In fact, you should probably concentrate even harder on it, because Murphy's Law dictates that you won't have it when you need it. So there's my two cents, worth one cent with the falling dollar.[img][/img]

I had a pair of knuckledusters when I was a teenager and they were garbage. I never used them and they looked like they would break my fingers the holes and grip was very odd. I do a lot of firearm training and train with knives but not as much with the knives. Firearms take a lot of training to be of proper and effective use. I've seen SAP gloves online, never in person. Has anyone here used them?

one guy that taught me used to use sap gloves quite a few times on the door, he gave the gloves to me. The gloves add weight to your hands and when you ball your fist your knuckles become thick and marble like because the lead are filled around that region. Did some pad work with it there is a much higher penetration and does not hurt like knuckleduster, basically like MMA gloves filled with lead shots

Never tried it on anyone though