A Cane? what to do?

i've slowly been changing my fight game. then came richard, and things have been slowly getting more direction. the self defense i teach now might just as well be called, "richard-defense"--with the addition of the psychology of 'the fence', the c-grip, the head butts. he expedited the path i was on. so rather than take more years to figure out what my old friend--who used to tournament fight with me in my blind tae kwon do years, should do (and who now uses a cane)...i'm asking the crew. all i've told him so far:
-don't swing the f%$^er like a samurai, straight wicked fast jabs in places that count (muggers don't need to breed anyway); and other places if it seems life threatening.

do you agree?
not?
have other suggestions?

i'm way open...i've never had the question before.
-rus

Having never worked with anyone partially sighted or indeed done much with weapons, I really couldnt say mate

These techniques http://www.gutterfighting.org/Stickfighting.html are simple to adapt for use with a walking cane.I train them myself as i find it nessecary to use a stick from time to time.

thanks Richie. and thanks for the website Dark. i'll print it, past it on to my friend, we'll practice and figure out what is useful--or useful for him.
-Rus

Think about some bayonet type thrusts to the face / throat for 'high end' techs. Make sure the cane is going in/out at a rapid pace. Butt smashes with either end.

I personally prefer the straight cane as opposed the crooked one - even though there's mucho online with the locking-ish stuff from Hapkido et al.

I'd prefer to put 'em down and get on my toes. If the latter is not easily possible put 'em down and then maybe bludgeon with the end [think pestle and mortar].

I would not use the walking cane at all for other than walking. He needs to carry a real, injurious/deadly weapon if he is disabled.

i think your right (Sergei). i think the suggestions for use are sound, i'm
staying with simple stuff--so far i don't like the idea of a curved walking
stick. my fear is the cane will be grabbed from him and used on him. i told him as much. i've been trying to encourage him to work on hand and
forearm strength--an added bonus if he can get close enough (c-grip; groin; eyes; fingers). he has a fighter's sensability but i'm not at all sure it will help if there is more than one. his has some back issues and is looking forward to hip surgery at a young age...hmmm. don't want to set him up. this revisits some concerns i had.
-rus

Quote :

has some back issues and is looking forward to hip surgery at a young age...hmmm.

That sure complicates things a bit but can be worked around. I can't see a cane of being any use other than if you took a full out swing and blind-sided somebody in the temple maybe, which isn't going to happen in a fight. I wish you luck and hope you keep us updated on how it's going. I don't like handicapped people being taken advantage of, and there are others out there like me, so that's at least some good news. If I saw him getting preyed on by some fellas I'd squash it immediately or smash the fellas.

cheers. i'll right about his progress. and what we're working with/on.
-Rus

.

Cold Steel has a walking stick with a solid head on it. I would swing that happy bastard right to the noggin.

Try stabbing a stick on a buddy who will actively fight back.

Sword cane is a different story, but if you do it with one hand on the end of the cane, it's very wobbly when you stab, if you follow me. Your instincts will likely tell you to clobber them with a good swing, and your instincts are more than likely correct.

Your mileage may vary...

so far, all we've got for training (lately he's been too busy with his job) is several specific targets that turn the tables quickly (eyes are one). only poking gestures; widely gripped favoring one side (i'm not a writer so i don't know if this is coming across). as if holding a samarai sword like a twit (one hand on handle; one on the hypothetical blade--but since this a cane...no worries). he has a curved cane, but i've been pushing for him to get one without a crooked hand hold because i think it will serve to get it taken away from him. the space in the middle of his wide grip can double as a swatting (waste to face--as if doing a fore-arm curl) gesture for a knife. we're working out the details of which way he grips with his lead arm (palm up or palm down). palm up makes sense with the twit image because it is really two palms facing inward, but when you swat (up and down, i'm not sure if this grip will hold under 'heat'). and we take as a given that the cane has a 50/50 chance of dropping and so focus on eye attacks and ear rips, etc... as a follow up. as if only facing one person. with requests that he work his fore-arm strength in several ways (so far not done--lazy bastard) to include grip strengthening things like striking surfaces in a bali-stick (or one handed baseball bat) style...not for technique, but simply for strengthening. one of his biggest opponents, lately, because of everything he's gone through...is himself. once i get him regurlarly training, i'll write more about it. so far--technique wise...minimalism/less-is-better/you're not jackie-f*&^ing-chan is the philosophy. with his restrictive 'torque', i don't think any kind of circular swings will benefit him. this is one stiff bloke. i think with time he may handle a fencers sensability--he used to do this sport before tae kwon do. anyway, i'm not writing about him again until he takes this more seriously than me.

Russell,

Have you thought trying to get him a more specialized "fighting" cane? Don't know if you are aware of a company called "Canemasters", but they make a wide variety of walking canes with "special powers"...if you will. They sell a variety of canes, but their most popular are of course the self defense canes. These canes have a crook, just like your friend's, but they are much bigger so that you can use it to ensnare your opponent's neck with it. Judging by your description, I'm pretty sure that would be out of your friend's range of ability at this time. However, they also promote using the cane as a method of exercise and rehabilitation. You might want to look into that as a way of helping him improve his current physical condition. If you've never been to their site, it's www.canemasters.com . Hope that helps.

Arnold

Arnold,
i'm passing the website on to him. you're on to something, from my angle though i think it will kick his a#$ into gear. he loves investing in gadgets and such--a treky-comic book geek at heart. this may jump start him and help him in a practical way as well.
cheers.

Glad I could help. A plain cane by itself can be quite nasty...but the "enhancements" they add to their's makes them down right WICKED.

Let us know how it goes.

Arnold

thanks for all the responses. the truth is (now). my friend who now sports a metal hip looks better than he has in years.
he's lost weight, sports a bald head, and while he has a long way to go...he pretty much looks the part.
he has to wait for me to catch up and is frequently seen jogging up stairs. fuck me, the bionic man...so now we're planning on a more regular set for training--excluding the use of canes. i would never have guessed it. canes do not fall into my arena of experience/practice/etc... so for his sake, it is better all round. he's young but knowing some of his history, i'll be trying to exploit his natural fast hands--and maybe with the help of what i have from Richie/Bob dvd's--let him view for himself the changes he may need to have more follow through.
that's my update. he had a bum hip, now he has a new hip...god bless america (ha ha). now if i can only replace my ugly mug with a handsome
more rock-star-ish face, i'll be set. do you have one in titanium so i can't be knocked the fuck out. cheers. can i have chips with that please?

who used to tournament fight with me in my blind tae kwon do years,

why blind taekwondo? really i never practiced taekwondo.. but why if people practacing streetfighting, talk a little bit bad about classical martial arts?
i dont understand.

put a good street fighter vs an very very good judoka... see what happens
put a good street fighter vs a very very good jiu jitsuka
put a good street fighter vs a very good wing chun man
etc etc..

really i do believe classic martial arts are better than no training.

Haven't read all the posted replies so apologies if this link has been given.

http://defendyourself101.ca/

Have not personally viewed the material, so cannot speak as to its efficacy.

i should qualify if i wrote that--which i'm sure i did. i have a memories of fighting a great deal without any training. it was natural and instinctual. i fought, sometimes like a contest between two stupid (me one of them) young men, and other times more seriously. some of those people called themselves martial artists. i became more interested in some of those arts myself and trained in a number of styles--out of curiosity. the two that took up the most of my time were: tae kwon do, and shotokan karate.
i remember things that shaped my opinions like: dominating a person in shotokan for a bit that was supposed to be my senior student, followed by a stiff correction to do things in a certain way. fair enough, but it was dogmatic in a way that only allowed shotokan style on shotokan style. i like shotokan enough for it's charging in quality, but on cheeky occasions i would circle like a boxer and found the better 'sparring' types not really fair as well because they weren't used to the change.

in tae kwon do, however, i train in this style long enough to not take note of how it changed my techniques and targets. in the real thing (once), i was drawing on some of these 'fair' targets, with some of the 'sports-style' pacing...and in my heavily drunken stupor (which did not help at all), i recieved a serious beating from three people who fought more like i used to. that said. i probably smart a bit for what i could have seen coming. all i say is, if you're training in these styles, let them serve as conditioning tools and tweek the pacing, and be more aquainted with some other target options. in retrospect i was reacting like i was in some kind of 3 on 1 tournament, and i realized my mistakes too late.

that said, if someone is a hard puncher, even without follow through... martial arts can play a big role (in my opinion) in psching out and issuing
a beating to the intermediate level 'contest-minded' person who is probably not out for blood and wants merely to test his metal while out with his mates. the majority of my altercations with people have played out more like this. punch someone in the eye really hard, he holds his eye and curses while walking off. it didn't really prepareff me for the next level. those martial artists who had life threatening situations--that i've known, were sort of tough to begin with. i used to joke with my friend (that had a cane) that they were only trying to add style to what they already had. one of them practically took a man's eye out--reaching way back into his socket after the person had walked him back into his car with a screw driver pressed into his back. the other got himself arrested while issuing a beating to someone who was basically looking to just beat someone up and made a poor choice. his kick/punch/punch type response was enough to drop the guy--then the police drove up and briefly locked him up in the local jail.

i have the opinion that it can be a set up for those hoping it will help save their life one day. they don't cover the mental side very well also--in my opinion. i had a friend in Worksop who had a round kick that came out like a bull whip. he did this to a charging dickhead and got away with it
but was psyched out by the thug's tenacity, and caved under his mental toughness.

you're absolutely right to say:
just test this style against that style.
i add,
just test this person against that person.

i don't think the style will save anyone, but at least when you are around the more street fighting psychologies, what is also part of the training is:
pacing (no gaps--all the way--all offensive)
mental state
inclusion of non-sportsmanlike areas (knees;eyes)

etc etc etc...

i humbly submit that i feel it is more likely that a streetfighting game plan will do more for a non-fighting beginner that a traditional style. i also have the bias that less is better. my favorite story is the one about the fox and the cat. the fox has a book of 100 techniques, the cat can only run up a tree. when the wolf comes, the cat is already out of the way as the fox is trying to figure out which technique to use. i think the most effective stuff is that boring shit that would not bring large numbers of students in. and that the most important thing is to train until your reflexes would punch even before you knew how to intellectually process what happens. it is why i brain wash myself into a routine of certain really intense strikes. and i trust this process because i've seen a correlation. add what Richie says about having people yell all around you while you work from a 'fence' position, or drive someone back...that kind of stuff that looks a great deal more like a bar scene, or a street scene. i feel it covers more of the bases, makes things feel that much more familiar. i know that you have alot of experience, so this isn't where i'm coming from. i'm thinking of people that don't what a system with no dogma has to offer that one with one doesn't--and i can only speak from my life experiences. and i keep a part of my views open enough to be ready for other people's to be different (and also from their life experiences). a wise person said that the god is many, but the wise call him by one name. i take this to mean that there are different ways to make sense of things, but not to let these different things divide us. we're after the same thing, and if it's the truth we're after, the more fearless and self critical among us will surely get farther down this path.

too much writing...sorry Chulo... and here i am at work... i better get back or i'll not be making a wise choice. ha ha.

Quote :

all i've told him so far:
-don't swing the f%$^er like a samurai, straight wicked fast jabs in places that count (muggers don't need to breed anyway); and other places if it seems life threatening.

do you agree?
not?
have other suggestions?

This is my first post because it came to my attention and I have a little experience with using the cane as a weapon.

I don't favour single hand hits with the cane although even though after I actually drill people not to do it, they still do it when adrenalised, such as here,
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=tSIkEZkxUCI

I like two handed thrusts and punches with a stick.

After that I think some training in escaping grabs is necessary as well as some cqc empty hand / kicking attacks if your opponent is too strong and you must let him have your cane.

I have a bit of cane practice at http://defendyourself101.ca/articles/cane-fighting-practise and a bit about how to choose a fighting cane here, http://defendyourself101.ca/articles/cane-fighting-what-cane-buy-self-defense-cane

I'm also not a fan of tricking our your cane with the CaneMasters nor Lewt Livesay logos and modifications. They work nice but are not worthh the extra hassle you will recieve from the po-lice once you win the fight. imnsho,

Ted

So I asked if it was OK to resurrect old threads, and here's one I wanted to comment on:
The cane is an awesome weapon, and one that I fully intend to employ as I get to the age that I might even need one!
It forms part of many Eskrima systems, and a big part of the one I train. "Old Man Style" usually contains strikes that start with the tip of the cane on the ground with many upward strikes. "Bugsay" uses the other hand also, to shorten the range of the weapon, either both hands at one end A la Baseball bat, or one at each end like a paddle. Lots of pokes, both ends hit.
Here is a clip of a BBQ/workout at a friend's garage, just playing, but you can get a bit of an idea of what the Filipinos came up with for the cane .....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtSnmvzFWWs

wow, really fluid. nice to watch. i saw deflections and counters that reminded me of aikido sword. then i saw some capoiera foot work. must take years to get that instinctual and fluid, no? i appreciated the blade in the back of one of the guy's pants. no pen knife, that! nice response. as it is. the guy the original thread was about is back to impressive use of his legs...but i catch your meaning regarding the aging warriors we'll all be. i trained with a tae chi guy once who was trying to overcompensate from the rep tai chi gets for fighting. i simply remember him encouraging straight jabs until you really feel comfortable. i tried to build from there. get arm strength into the game. my friend simply didn't bite. now he's up for training, but no longer needs the cane in the immediate. he was around for many of my sport, and nonsport fights--my old security boss, so he's more gung ho for what i'm offering regarding the regular boxing-ish stuff. still though, i'd read anything you put on, on this. i'm sure it would be nice to know how to improvise with a natural weapon like a crow bar/table leg/etc...if the landscape affords one. being able to do anything with knife/cane/etc, i am--how do i put it, abissmal. when i did aikido for a while, i was keen on tossing people about early on. i met nice folks who accepted that i was transitioning not as a beginner from another hard style. but utilizing the wooden sword was laughable to watch. the only thing that really makes sense to me, at this juncture, would be hurling an overhead or jabbing straight. i use to carry a nasty knife when i was younger, and had a couple of initial strokes that i was more than willing to use, but stupidly no follow up. so that makes me lucky i never got tested really. it would be nice to know some basics and get them down really well. that's really my whole fight game anyway. having strong basics.

Over the years I have been to several Hapkido cane seminars and thought that I would never really need cane techniques, but since I blew out my knee 9 days ago while bike riding... this past training might be quite useful. I never really thought that a cane was the best choice of weapons, however, if its something you have with you most of the time. Then it would be a good idea to train with it. The only thing you really need to keep in mind, is that it is merely an extension of the body.

roadkill,
i like this idea of a cane--etc, being an extension of your body. i like the converse logic of using the hands like swords/etc, also. i actually learned a great deal about hand options for striking--from one aikido practitioner in particular that was severely limited physically (bad back). he treated his lead arm--or whatever, as a sword to deflect and strike. all very bruce lee esque, but it has on occasion been responsible for really strong follow ups form a block/deflection (in me). so seeing the cane as an extension makes sense to me. personally i'm inclined to take this advice mildly redacted to suit my sensabilities...meaning, i don't feel comfortable single handing a cane. thrusting with two hands, and having the odd rifle butt style hit makes sense to me (a jab/cross/hook of sorts).

i hope your knee quickly gets better. injuries are a sore point--pardon the pun, to me.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Blind-Fury-REGION-1-NTSC/dp/B0002YLEBI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1228155440&sr=8-1 ;-)

Heston