GOING BERSERK

"This fury, which was called berserkergang, occurred not only in the heat of battle, but also during laborious work. Men who were thus seized performed things which otherwise seemed impossible for human power. This condition is said to have begun with shivering, chattering of the teeth, and chill in the body, and then the face swelled and changed its colour. With this was connected a great hot-headedness, which at last gave over into a great rage, under which they howled as wild animals, bit the edge of their shields, and cut down everything they met without discriminating between friend or foe. When this condition ceased, a great dulling of the mind and feebleness followed, which could last for one or several days."

Which made me think about excited delirium syndrome...the possible modern day equivalent.


http://www.exciteddelirium.org

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3804/is_200307/ai_n9301741/

linked to hyperthermia though not hypothermia.

So were Berserks on drugs or using Ritchies suprastates CD?

There is also a Gaelic battle rage, well known to lovers of the character "Slaine" from 2000 A.D.

This was known as the Warp Spasm or Riastrad.

It is one of the famous primary attributes of Cu Chulainn, The Hound OF Ulster, one of Ireland's most famous son's.



From The Tain, Thomas Kinsella (translator)

The Tain desribes Cuchulain's warp-spasm, but other Celtic heroes went into similar berserker frenzies. Murdach, King Brian Boru's son at the Battle of Clontarf ,in 1014, was "the last man who killed a hundred in one day.

Bit better than chanting "Come on then! Who wants some!!!"

I used to collect Slaine comics - great stuff

I have hundreds of them still in the loft. I did not think them too many!

Interestingly enough I had a mate who did deoderant a lot (I.E. stuck a bag over his head and inhaled the fumes), and apparently he went beserk once at a party.

He was on the floor writhing around screaming like he was posessed apparently, arching his back and clenching his jaw. I didn't see it but can't help but wonder what state of mind he was in.

Suppose it's not the same, but in the same line. I don't think anyone would have wanted to restrain him.

Funny never tried sniffing anything even tippex. The had a glue sniffer on Juliet Bravo when I was a kid, put me completely off the idea. No sense of adventure, that's my problem.

I guess the filipino running Amok would fit in here as well, Theres references to this state or states in different cultures throughout the history of warfare. Perhaps Grendel was originally some completely bladdered post pub psycho.

Interestingly, the accounts of Berserkgang & Úlfhéðnar are not contemporary but were writen nearly 400 years after the events. So either they were that good that it stuck in oral tradition or there is an edge of artistic license.


The various theories of how they achieved the state are the usual hodgepodge, with of course very little evidence.

Mushrooms, alcohol (seems likely to me ), chanting & magic rights, dancing etc.

Anyone read the 13th warrior? Closest I have ever got to reading a book that goes slightly more in depth to the viking other than in a horrible histories kind of way. Perhaps I should give the icelandic sagas ago.

Arching back and clenching jaw huh... Sounds like poisonous crampety cramp cramps. Such as strychnine and tetanus effects. As a kid I used to laugh at the label on many deodorants that said "can kill if inhaled" or something to that effect. Laughing because some people had a tendency to turn the wardrobes into fucking gas chambers with those things. But a kid died from filling a small bathroom with that stuff some time ago. Was on the net. Full of poisonous stuff.

Back to the inhaler-kid and his freaky writhing. Smoking this kitchen herb was in a while ago, and some skin products and other stuff also contained stuff from the same plant family. The kitchen herb type caused hallucinations and freaky shit. but a lot of the other stuff the idiots thought was the same was from the neurotoxic variety of the plant. Smoking it leading to feelings of being on fire and seizures, sense of time stretching out and paralysis. I saw a video of one kid spazzing out, screaming frantically while rolling and rocking all over the couch, then tried to run his head through the wall. Doesn't sound like what we're looking for.

Berserkergang sounds like major doses of adrenaline and emotion. Removing the security catches of the body. The stuff from stories of the granny lifting the car of the kid, the green beret found unconscious with over 80 dead enemy around him. Steve Morris talked about how to train the body to physically handle this power without tearing yourself apart.

Because look at the strychnine and tetanus cramps again. The muscles have the power to tear themselves right off the bone. But try doing that consciously. Morris mentioned people being electrocuted from messing with wiring. Sending them flying across the room. Of course there is no explosion going on with the force to lift a man and throw him away, it's all muscle action. but try doing that consciously. normally the body won't let you access what you can't handle.

But think about the effects of PCP and amphetamines. People running themselves to death. fighting with steel pipes, breaking each others bones, and just laughing at it. Drugs open the doors so to speak, the capability is there with or without drugs. It is the body that does it. When the vikings went into berserkergang, it sounds like they found a pretty good way of accessing the potential, but without drugs? With?

I've heard they messed around with mushrooms, drinking their piss and so on. Likely a lot of hype and myth, but it's a crumb... Maybe they had a magic potion.



Hmm...

Did the vikings have some kind of old school amphetamine to go with their ill intent?

Or maybe their mumbo jumbo guy knew how to lead them there mentally. I am convinced it is possible. Psychotics and people in emergencies sometimes stumble into it. Functional insanity.

Huffing deodorant? That's pretty desperate really isn't it? Blearccchhh

I know I posted this awhile back, but I just can't resist: http://www.vikingfighting.com/
"Mug the mugger ...Rape the rapist"!

RichB - The Vikings sure had alcohol and hallucinogenics ... amphetamines I'm not so sure .....

Quote :

However, elements of the old faith and the secret fighting arts remained - and have been kept alive until this very day by a small but dedicated group of extraordinary men.

Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune.

If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire... The A-Team.

http://www.jamieclague.co.uk/blog/ateam/phil_ateam_64.mp3
BESERKERRS - BESS - ER - KERRS

Blakops wrote:

Cu Chulainn, The Hound OF Ulster, one of Ireland's most famous son's.

The first warp-spasm seized Cúchulainn, and made him into a monstrous thing, hideous and shapeless, unheard of. His shanks and his joints, every knuckle and angle and organ from head to foot, shook like a tree in the flood or a reed in the stream. His body made a furious twist inside his skin, so that his feet and shins switched to the rear and his heels and calves switched to the front... On his head the temple-sinews stretched to the nape of his neck, each mighty, immense, measureless knob as big as the head of a month-old child... he sucked one eye so deep into his head that a wild crane couldn't probe it onto his cheek out of the depths of his skull; the other eye fell out along his cheek. His mouth weirdly distorted: his cheek peeled back from his jaws until the gullet appeared, his lungs and his liver flapped in his mouth and throat, his lower jaw struck the upper a lion-killing blow, and fiery flakes large as a ram's fleece reached his mouth from his throat... The hair of his head twisted like the tange of a red thornbush stuck in a gap; if a royal apple tree with all its kingly fruit were shaken above him, scarce an apple would reach the ground but each would be spiked on a bristle of his hair as it stood up on his scalp with rage.

okay, thanks for that
that was too good.

thanks again Maija for the Berserker site, i enjoyed rereading it

RichB,
i know PCP is technically a hallucinogen, that tends to re'wire folks a bit on the pain'free and violent side--by DC's rep
anyway, but i sort of see stimulants as better option for skills?? and alcohol is a terrible depressant--for abilities and perceptions, it would not help very much i reckon. i used to get questions about zulus and daga [pot] and would laugh
my arse off imagining docile zulus getting the munchies and preferring to stay in and not fight. it'd have to be a hell of
a hallucinogen. i know LSD when taken in cruder [moldy rye] forms gives one the feeling of burning limbs, madness,
and other things that eventually lead to st. 'somebody'or'other's fire [the name given for the affect it had on folks during the witch burning time in america's hystery--and possibly the explanation for why folks were thought to be witches in the first place. there was a family of girls who harvested rye--from which we derive LSD, and would have exhibited [possibly if the theory holds] enough attributes to make people think, to include possibly themselves, they were indeed witches.

get hold of something like that--and a good warrior/sorcerer type, and some faith in the mighty Thor...who knows?
i'd be ready to beat someone to death after that good mental preperation.


edited///
just saw this...
"Modern scholars believe that certain examples of berserker rage to have been induced coluntarily by the consumption of drugs such as the hallucinogenic mushroom *Amanita muscaria* (Howard D. Fabing. "On Going Berserk: A Neurochemical Inquiry." Scientific Monthly. 83 [Nov. 1956] p. 232), or massive quantities of alcohol (Robert Wernick. The Vikings. Alexandria VA: Time-Life Books. 1979. p. 285). While such practices would fit in with ritual usages, other explanations for the berserker's madness have been put forward, including self-induced hysteria, epilepsy, mental illness or genetic flaws (Peter G. Foote and David m. Wilson. the Viking Achievement. London: Sidgewick & Jackson. 1970. p. 285).

The physical appearance of the berserk was one calculated to present an image of terror. Dumezil draws parallels between the berserk and the tribe of Harii mentioned in Tacitus's Germania who used not only "natural ferocity" but also dyed their bodues to cause panic and terror in their enemies, just as the berserk combined his fearsome reputation with animal skin dress to suggest the terrifying metamorphosis of the shape changer (Dumezil, Destiny of the Warriro, p. 141). Indeed, berserkers had much in common with those thought to be werewolves. Ulf, a retired berserker, is mentioned in this light in Egils saga Skallagrimsonar: "

Quote :

But think about the effects of PCP and amphetamines. People running themselves to death. fighting with steel pipes, breaking each others bones, and just laughing at it. Drugs open the doors so to speak, the capability is there with or without drugs. It is the body that does it. When the vikings went into berserkergang, it sounds like they found a pretty good way of accessing the potential, but without drugs? With?

that with or without drugs question is a good one but a bit misleading- it reflects the view that "drugs" (an external stimulus) are doing something to the person taking them- which they are but the map aint quite the territory the territory with drugs is a bit more compleksh

in fact drugs are triggering the natural and much more powerful naturally occurring "drugs" inside the body: LSD, Cocaine, Ecstacy etc are triggers

we talk about it AS THOUGH the drugs course through you and make you do this and that which they do but its a symbiotic efffect: they are in fact also releasing your own chemicals and affecting your biochemical state

according to some, the body produces chemicals thousands of times stronger than anything we can produce in a pharmacy, what we produce are poor copies, with shitty side effects

our own opiates are much better and stronger than the best heroine... but tell that to someone in A+E with an arm hanging off, the needle is the only guaranteed way we have of killing pain, so far

So can an uber thug, neanderthal with an axe who has lived a life of roughness, a day of which would have any of us softies broken, access states (and inner "drugs") that would stave off pain, access boundless energy and strength and switch off the central nervous systems "safety brakes"? oh hell yes

Nowadays as has been mentioned people can still access when they on rare occassion get into situations of EXTREME danger, a survival mechanism is kicked which lets them access these states

Well, imagine a battle field, a thousand and one ways to die, get horribly maimed or trampled on- doesnt get much more risky does it

Plus your a soldier and you do this for a living so you are deliberately TRYING to go berserk, you believe in going berserk, its real, youve seen it, everyone you know talks about it, the experience has been described to you over and over and over (social hypnosis) now your just "waiting for it to happen to you"- its real, it happens, its normal

But the important thing is its not you, no no, its um... Odin... sending the spirit of an angry bear into you, to do his bidding.

"kill kill kill the prime minister of malaysia chop him with your axe....and when you wake up you wont remember a thing"


I've seen an element of these states being accessed over the years, a result of high levels of psychological stress and substance usage, but do I think you can access them naturally? - of course

Tell me doing the Core Visualisation exercise doesnt make you feel like you've got roid rage!! - yet what is it? its just words, ideas and emotion

are you actually increasing your testosterone levels? possibly

You got to realise how powerful we are naturally, despite the agenda (dun dun DUN!) to make us think we are weak and needy lambs who need ice cream, anti depressants and aspirin for the meagrest headache (we must never feel pain! never! pain is the enemy!)

Context - we need to realise just how rough an existence these dudes led. Day to day, from morning till night. Rough fuckers. Like them bodies of English soldiers dug up that showed evidence of horrendous scars from years and years of battles, people walking round and fighting on with their skulls bashed, eyes out, broken arms, stabbed, maced, slashed, stamped...

"another mug of mead will sort this out I reckon"

When foolishly applying for Officer Training with the Paras, I got to live and train in Aldershot for 3 days: I was appalled to find they even ate in an atmosphere of aggression, the cooks were angry! but why? just because its a day ending in "y", every day is an angry day it seemed

the result? a fearsome fighting force who dont need to "psyche themselves up" to fight,

no they need to do the opposite, they need to "reign themselves in" - then when its time to fight, just let go


its a different paradigm

Richard Grannon wrote:

in fact drugs are triggering the natural and much more powerful naturally occurring "drugs" inside the body: LSD, Cocaine, Ecstacy etc are triggers

we talk about it AS THOUGH the drugs course through you and make you do this and that which they do but its a symbiotic efffect: they are in fact also releasing your own chemicals and affecting your biochemical state

according to some, the body produces chemicals thousands of times stronger than anything we can produce in a pharmacy, what we produce are poor copies, with shitty side effects

our own opiates are much better and stronger than the best heroine... but tell that to someone in A+E with an arm hanging off, the needle is the only guaranteed way we have of killing pain, so far

So can an uber thug, neanderthal with an axe who has lived a life of roughness, a day of which would have any of us softies broken, access states (and inner "drugs") that would stave off pain, access boundless energy and strength and switch off the central nervous systems "safety brakes"? oh hell yes

Nowadays as has been mentioned people can still access when they on rare occassion get into situations of EXTREME danger, a survival mechanism is kicked which lets them access these states

Well, imagine a battle field, a thousand and one ways to die, get horribly maimed or trampled on- doesnt get much more risky does it

Plus your a soldier and you do this for a living so you are deliberately TRYING to go berserk, you believe in going berserk, its real, youve seen it, everyone you know talks about it, the experience has been described to you over and over and over (social hypnosis) now your just "waiting for it to happen to you"- its real, it happens, its normal

But the important thing is its not you, no no, its um... Odin... sending the spirit of an angry bear into you, to do his bidding.

"kill kill kill the prime minister of malaysia chop him with your axe....and when you wake up you wont remember a thing"


When foolishly applying for Officer Training with the Paras, I got to live and train in Aldershot for 3 days: I was appalled to find they even ate in an atmosphere of aggression, the cooks were angry! but why? just because its a day ending in "y", every day is an angry day it seemed

the result? a fearsome fighting force who dont need to "psyche themselves up" to fight,

no they need to do the opposite, they need to "reign themselves in" - then when its time to fight, just let go


its a different paradigm

WOW'SER, that was a cool response. it did two things, it became personally inspiring [erm, 1], and it reminded of what
the swamis used to say regarding all things miraculous. not magic, just the real version of what we're trying to replicate [uhm, yeah that was 2] ...not surprizingly understood by the few--who put in their years to understanding such
things...like when my own teacher had to 'put himself out' for surgery because the drugs weren't doing it. how fookin'
odd was that. he had extensive foot surgery on both feet--no small operation. but look for him to levitate--like everyone
else probably looks for, and of course it wont get miraculous any time soon. he could control his trancy-state, and pain
thresh'holds. pretty cool.

makes one want to pray to ODIN and THOR...

as an aside: people who have studied [extensively] bushmen [so called] of which i share some bloodlines with but am
obviously FAR removed have found an enormous proportion of them able to reach swami like places, or trance like states.
and, whether to power of suggestion or whatever, there was at least one case of a journalist losing her tumor after a
quirky and odd bushman 'woman' [do i say bushwoman ] came over and placed her hands on the offending area--the journalist hadn't told of her condition [supposedly]. and before anyone tells me what the PC name for bushmen is, it ain't.
san is wrong, the kung is only one group, etc... many refer to themselves as bushmen in spite of how it's origins weren't so
flattering. in case i have any sensitive liberals reading this. i studied them loads years back, after hearing about my background...probably the way the average american gets into native american studies after he finds out he had an uncle that was Lakota, etc...

okay, i'm procrastinating from hitting the pads, then teaching my SP class. how ironic that i do it by writing here .

Very interesting -
The brain is indeed a vast and fascinating place. I know we have much untapped potential, and it's interesting to read Steve Morris and others who have thought about how to access these abilities.
I do think though, that every state we access has a potential cost, and perhaps back in the bloody, axe wielding past, going berserk was a grand survival skill to have, but I suspect this kind of process must wreck havok with your bio chemistry in the long run. Not a problem if you have a 30 - 40 year life expectancy, but perhaps not so healthy in this day and age.
There is a book I read a while back called "The Biology of Belief" ( http://www.brucelipton.com/excerpt-chapter-one )
Now the guy gets a bit new age-y at the end, but I thought his work on how cell biology relates to the sub conscious was cool.

Richard Grannon wrote:

When foolishly applying for Officer Training with the Paras, I got to live and train in Aldershot for 3 days: I was appalled to find they even ate in an atmosphere of aggression, the cooks were angry! but why? just because its a day ending in "y", every day is an angry day it seemed

the result? a fearsome fighting force who dont need to "psyche themselves up" to fight,

no they need to do the opposite, they need to "reign themselves in" - then when its time to fight, just let go


its a different paradigm

Sorry if it's a bit OT, but I was in ITC Catterick with the Paras as a 19yo recruit for 4 weeks (other ranks).

They take a group of boys, stress them to the level that it tests everyones patience and willpower, break people down and then mold them into warriors.

You all get smashed maybe 5-8 times a day as a group for 'fucking up' (i.e. trained to exhaustion in the corridoor with burpees etc), and that's when you see the winners shine through (they really do not give a fuck, and can't be touched [mentally] by anyone).

I think what i'm trying to say is that on the subject of our soldiers going beserk, it's not quite so.
All of the training is based on self-discipline. The Paras get the hardest tests and punishments, and as a result are the most disciplined men in the Army. Aggression is trained into you from day one, yes, but if you answer back to a Cpl or ever lose your temper you learn not to do it again.

I think what I mean is that the process of training distinguishes and isolates the winners early on, and over the course of 6 months teaches them the mental states [suprastates?] needed to succeed and be soldiers.

The whole system promotes controlled aggression (as you mention). But I don't think any soldier in combat operates with the 'safety off' so to speak.

Our Corporal said that he didn't feel fear when he went into combat, he felt excited. Probably exaggerating, but then he had already passed SAS selection and was a jungle warfare expert..

I would think of boy soldiers in Sierra Leone and the Congo when it comes to beserker nutbars. Or the Somalian militias that snort that mix of cocaine and gunpowder. I would not fuck with a Para on a bayonet charge by any means though..

Sorry

I was not clear, I was on a roll

I wasnt trying to say paras are modern berserkers, they arent, they are professional soldiers and going berserk "biting your shields" and killing anything that moved whether friend of foe wouldnt be helpful or effective

what I was trying to do was to illustrate a point that a whole life lived aggressively in and around violence/ aggression is not something most of us softies can relate to

if you live that way, aggression is easy

if you lived like a viking going berserk might be a peice of piss, no need to stretch for a reason: was it mushrooms, was it alcholol

Im sort of pushing the point that its entirely possible it was all "natural"

though obviously having not lived in that time I cant discount it wasnt drugs

didnt a certain native american tribe hack at themselves and each other with knives in initiation ceremonies? altered states of consciousness are natural and can be induced without drugs, chanting, dancing, repetitive rythms, altered light, sensory deprivation have all been used with good effect over the years

so, um

the paras dont take drugs and they are aggressive as fuck

maybe the vikings didnt take drugs- is my point in a sentence

Quote :

Our Corporal said that he didn't feel fear when he went into combat, he felt excited. Probably exaggerating, but then he had already passed SAS selection and was a jungle warfare expert..

I think its entirely possible that he felt no fear and only excitment- not many emotional states are rational or justified, god knows your corporal should have felt fear if he thought rationally and in terms of consequence

but thank god he taught himself not to eh? he will be a better solider for it Im sure, in his reality he probably thinks at some level "it wont happen to me" and that belief however erroneous will allow him to perform with more confidence and skill

I think RichB already mentioned "functional insanity" but there is a great case for saying that SF types must have it if they want to pass and then do the job without going... well... insane ....

or shitting out.




I recorded the new supra states cd today, and then this topic comes up and goes in this direction

coincidence

good stuff

Sorry if I came accross wrong, I wasn't trying to contradict mate, just supplement (you're the psychologist ).

Oddly it occurred to me earlier that biting on shields sort of ties in with what RichB said earlier about the symptoms of toxic poisoning.

There are certainly ways to will oneself not to feel pain. Meditation is one way.

Look at Samurai performing ritual suicide or 'seppuko' Plenty of accounts here of a samurai not just cutting once, but several times... one such account describes a defeated general throwing his own bowels at his enemies.

and if your life is in danger, surviving outweighs any pesky little pain.

I was in a bad car accident a few years ago... broken nose, broken hand. I was unconscious for a minute and when I woke up there was smoke everywhere. All I knew was I needed to get out of the car, and I opened the door with my hand that was broken in three places. I didn't feel a thing, and found it curious how difficult it was to open the door lol.

D.M.B. wrote:

There are certainly ways to will oneself not to feel pain. Meditation is one way.

Look at Samurai performing ritual suicide or 'seppuko' Plenty of accounts here of a samurai not just cutting once, but several times... one such account describes a defeated general throwing his own bowels at his enemies.

and if your life is in danger, surviving outweighs any pesky little pain.

I was in a bad car accident a few years ago... broken nose, broken hand. I was unconscious for a minute and when I woke up there was smoke everywhere. All I knew was I needed to get out of the car, and I opened the door with my hand that was broken in three places. I didn't feel a thing, and found it curious how difficult it was to open the door lol.

nice story mate

"Why is my hand so floppy? come on hand... wait you dont usually bend like that..."



I once read that proper seppuku was 2 cuts: one across the abdomen a second up to the sternum, a big "L" shaped hole that ensures everything falls out nicely

what kind of altered state/tenacity of resolve has someone acheived to do this? the mind boggles really


but as I say when a humans entire life and culture points in a direction people just follow along

again look at the military as an example- if we all lived in some complex whereby there was some fitness / strength standard tested weekly, eventually, barring injury or incapacity, we would meet it, whatever it was, over a long enough time line- groupthink and the power of shame , social norms, much more powerful than we realise I think

read the Strategos Navy Seal article on Lowest Common Denominator Training and how he as trainer used Navy Seals training techniques on "lesser" marines and consequently raised their game- its all about raising the standard... we will sink or raise to the standard whatever it is

Maija posted the article under the thread "who is training who" and I highly highly recommend you read it

might shed a bit of light on this "going berserk" phenomena


ps as to the biting sheilds thing - I personally am very very skeptical of 10 th hand historical accounts written in a different time line how can artistic license not creep in?

https://streetfightsecrets.darkbb.com/psychology-f1/who-is-training-whom-t1180.htm?highlight=who+is+training+who

by Ken J Good - the most informative eye opening article Ive read in years, and I read these things for a living

Richard Grannon wrote:

ps as to the biting sheilds thing - I personally am very very skeptical of 10 th hand historical accounts written in a different time line how can artistic license not creep in?

CHEERS MAIJA/RICHIE for the 'who is training who'...slow reader me, but after half the article, i could see where it was
going. lead from the front. keep raising the bar. collectively work toward a higher ideal and never get caught into ruts
of pacing, set levels, comfort zones, etc...

a nice read since i can sort of see what i'm doing right and wrong as a teacher myself. recently i found myself guilty of taking those 'gung-ho' folks, and letting it all hang out [ no problems there...teaching all round for all of us ], but the limp
biscuits, the soft dollies, the pudding-pops with feet...i had started just pacing them, sort of not being inspired by what i
was seeing as an 'END IN SIGHT'. i sort of woke up when one of my lame-duckies showed signs of understanding his plight
and asking ambitious questions that reflected a momentary glimpse of hunger on his part. this article makes me realize
that i had strayed from my original ideals WITH SEVERAL, and how important it is to remember that one's own personal
signature is on all the work one does--even those that don't show the gains you want, perhaps especially on those.

hmmm....

as for chewing on shields, Lar probably spilled some yummy scandinavian fish paste on his shield in order to keep his fighting
mittens on and have a wee snack on the ride to battle--just a big misunderstanding

Richard Grannon wrote:

"Why is my hand so floppy? come on hand... wait you dont usually bend like that..."



I once read that proper seppuku was 2 cuts: one across the abdomen a second up to the sternum, a big "L" shaped hole that ensures everything falls out nicely

what kind of altered state/tenacity of resolve has someone acheived to do this? the mind boggles really

LOL yepp that's pretty much my internal verbatim after the fact.... opening the door was difficult, but I chalked it up to the concussion I had just sustained making it difficult to do anything.

and yes to the "L" shaped cut, I think I read that as well once upon a time.

If you were defeated in any way back then in Japan, the only way to save your honor and your families honor was to kill yourself. That could mean the difference between your children living healthy lives or being peasants or beggars. As you're saying with the conditioning in other cultures towards mindsets, this made it possible for peopel to do things we shake our heads at.

Hey all,

Some very interesting thoughts from all around and I third the accolades for the training article (some really good stuff in there). Isn't it interesting what we humans can do under the right circumstances and/or with the right training or conditioning. Things you couldn't envision yourself ever doing one day become acceptable on another ( I have a keen interest survival stories like "Deep Survival". I have two such incidents that stand out in my mind. One was having to set my own dislocated shoulder after a fall in the wilderness so I could climb back to civilization and another was stitching a gash in my leg back up when no medical assistance was viable ( sorry but I was not as tough as Stallone in "Rambo", it hurt both times and there was some substantial swearing going on).

Coincidently last night I happened to catch the old movie "Eric the Viking" on TV. Pay attention to this clip about one minute into the scene.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAe3NLbaZfU&feature=player_embedded

Keep safe and train hard/smart, Mark H