head stomps....Would you?

I would be interested on people's opinion on head stomps.

Not so much their validity or effectiveness but whether they should be trained & ingrained.

I do train them & I find that i'm doing them after a takedown, as I am up & preparing to run or deal with next situation, often without really thinking about it.

Is this a good thing? Is it the right thing? Is it "reasonable use of force"?

I have recently been trying to
A) Stop & revaluate. Do I need to do it in the context of what has happened/ is happening?
B) Switch to a different target, usually the ankle, sometimes the knee ( Do these work?)

I watched a guy get head stomped once about 6 years ago. it was horrific & I am sure I heard a crunch both times as the boot came down. he was fortunate that 2 para medics were out shopping & were able to immediately administer first aid. He was k.o., but i am pretty sure he was in that state before the stomping. As to how seriously hurt he was, i have no idea. It was a passing act of brutality that I just happened to witness. And in terms of the fight before hand, totally uncalled for.

In the era of widespread CCTV, (especially here in the UK) How would I explain & justify my use of it?

Thoughts?

Really important question, relating to appropriate recyprocal force and all that
stuff that affects one on a personal moral code--not even dealing with the law
that sometimes ways too much one way or the other due to the general'ness
of it.

i'll make it easy--my opinion

you're attacked:

in a multiple--do anything fast acting for the purpose of saving your skin, whatever
comes to mind in that fragile and fast acting state, to include a stomp if things line up
that way. don't dance around for other options. do what is lined up--head, knee, whatever.
it's about staying safe. if someone doesn't like the consequences, then they need to
find another way to occupy their time. it comes with the territory. sorry, fook off, it's
your fault in the end--kinda like.

in a one on one--if you have the sense that you're safe, such follow through isn't really
necessary is it? it's not about being evil, it's about shutting someone down so you are
safe. train with that sense of discrimination, rather than a 'black-n-white' yes or no.

in my opinion. not a deviating opinion on this one.

in love and war is everything allowed.

if somebody makes war with me, i ll give all that i ve got., dont care about his welness (At that moment!)

later i can feel sorry and give him flowers or so

dont think so

BUT i think you have to have a very good reason to head stomp a total stranger.
one time a guy would push a sigaret in my face. i was to late, and my skin burned a bit in my eye brow, i went wild, he fell, i head stomped him.

dont feel bad about it, that guy i would head stomp again if i have the chance, or if i lucky and see him walk somewhere.

btw, i never "trained" a head stomp before.

Ok, so you consider it, as i do, justifiable in certain contexts. But as a lash out reaction?

When i say train it, we are often wearing headgear so you can give it a tap, but without, I suppose it looks like a mimed stamp & press heel against head

We train a lot, virtually everytime we get to our feet , you stamp on your opponent.

i am now doing it before I realise. & that is why I am wondering if it is a good thing.

Should it be second nature?

Quote :

i am now doing it before I realise. & that is why I am wondering if it is a good thing.

you're right to question it and the answer is an emphatic "NO"

you dont want to drill a headstomp as an unconscious habit that you will "always" use under stress

Ta Rich

Draw breath & think, then. At least in training

Think about it.Suppose some guy was being a prick and you laid him low, then out of anger you head stomp him and kill him, a normal person is going to have alot to carry on his shoulders for it. What happens if his familly finds out who you are and they hunt for ever and you have to leave the country over it.Macho talk is easy. If he attacked you with a knife and you knocked him down and he was getting up again with the weapon and you kick him in the head that is one thing, but it shouldnt be an automatic response when somebody is down.

Form follows function. Will I stomp a head? Absolutely, if it's at that level. If I want to end someone's life, stomping a downed head is one of the primary tools for that. To create a big internal hemmorhage that builds up intercranial pressure until blood from the heart no longer has enough pressure to get through the capillaries. The body can compensate for a little over 100 ml but a big enough bleed and high heart rate should make short work of that.

Tricking the brain to shut off with knockout shots is one thing, but high force attacks to the head are lethal force tools IMO. People often do it, but I think it is their incompetance and the body's resillience that keeps if from reaching it's potential. It is certainly one of the few unarmed methods of attack that has a realistic capacity to achieve that. When people die in fights, it is often from having hit the head too hard. From falls into hard stuff, or the old stomping. It has a high likelyhood of killing or turning them into drooling retards, either way, I think the American law for one defines things involving a likelyhood both as deadly force ("death or griveous injury"). I don't like to go to these levels unless there is a true need for it.

RichardB wrote:

Form follows function. Will I stomp a head? Absolutely, if it's at that level. If I want to end someone's life, stomping a downed head is one of the primary tools for that. To create a big internal hemmorhage that builds up intercranial pressure until blood from the heart no longer has enough pressure to get through the capillaries. The body can compensate for a little over 100 ml but a big enough bleed and high heart rate should make short work of that..

...and don't think i've forgotten it used to be both or our favorite disturbing dream

I wondered about the "lethal force" aspect. Having seen it done to bone cracking, blood pooling, KO conclusion in reality & the countless online vids, in which it demonstrably kills

It had been bugging me for months that it was getting to be a "thoughtless" activity, when it is obviously extremely dangerous.


Wish other stuff would become second nature, like not losing my keys.

Hi Rus. Thanks for the post earlier

Good luck in court justifying stomping someones head.
wtf, RBSD?!? You've taken a target down and you're still standing...
"...and then I stomped his head your Honor" = Hope your new cellmate doesn't enjoy dancing.

You want someone to stay down, stomp a knee or ankle, nasty but sort of defensible.

Maybe I should define need.

Chulo's "I don't care about his wellness" is an interesting statement. To the human animal it makes no sense to care about the well-being of the enemy we are fighting. It is an insane concept. But we are schizophrenic fucked up animals. The simplest simplification of all laws about self-defense and violence seem to come down to expressing genuine concern for the safety of the enemy. After softer measures have failed, seeking to take control of him as safely (for him) that you feel that you can risk. If you are honestly trying to do this, then need is the point where you feel that you can not risk taking considerations for the enemy's well-being.

In response to nix's point about necessity and justifying it in court. I was digging around in the forum for some other stuff in relation to the other thread I made, so might as well pull a piece of an old post here.

Quote :

4 Murder, death kill. - When I think about it there's really not a specific need to kill in civillian self protection. A KO can be effectively the same. The actual objective is to incapacitate. But this is more about the absolute lack of concern for anyone's health but your own you must exhibit because of that need. Stemming from things like extreme time pressure and no room for fuckups. So you can incapacitate with impunity. Using the safest and quickest method available to achieve that. The quickest and most relevant unarmed stuff I can think of is to throw him headfirst in the asphalt, and to stomp as hard and fast as possible until he's not moving. Or getting him down by any other means and stomping viciously.

So what could put sufficient time-pressure and dagerous potential on you that would necessitate stomping or kicking a downed man in the head? Group attacks come to mind. IF you have one man down, close by, and are not overwhelmed by the others, and the downed man begins to get up, it might be appropriate IMO. Stuff like that. But also simply kicking a bent-over man in the head has killed. Boots to heads has big potential. I'd group it with the stomping in the toolbox. A one on one without some other extra-ordinary factors does not call for finishing someone off, or risking it in any case.

The post grew and grew, eventually becoming too off topic, so I made another thread for that one here: https://streetfightsecrets.darkbb.com/psychology-f1/the-law-demands-concern-for-the-enemy-s-well-being-and-how-this-jives-with-violent-mindset-t1108.htm#7364

I had this exact 'dilemma' a couple of years ago. It became as naturally as hitting the space bar on my keyboard at the end of every letter. No thinking required: it just happened by itself. And I too feared the potential legal consequences.

I came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth it and made conscious effort to drop it. As Chulo said, he never trained it yet still did it. I'd even be so bold as to say that it's such a natural movement that it doesn't need training. If I really needed it, I'm sure that even my simple brain would be able to make it happen despite not 'ingraining' it.

The head stomp is a classic WW2 British commando killing technique. It kills people by accident. It's also so disturbing to witness - as you know - that Geoff Thompson used to train himself to 'pull' it on impact so he could still use it for psychological effect but without sending his opponent to their maker (ironically he ended up thinking he'd killed someone after not pulling it enough one night)

As for your question about stomping ankles and knees - I can't say I've ever heard of it working. But i've had instructors who had me doing it a lot. Maybe they know something I don;t? But looking at the physics of it - I'd say yeah... they'll at least hurt like hell if not damage the joint.

Personally I still train knee drops as I can regulate the power in them. You don't have to 'drop' the whole body into it - you can lower your self to take some of the 'bang' out of it. And they make a nice containment method when combined with using the hands to hold homeboy down.

Hey all, long time no post.

In my mind this just illustrates the need for scenerio based train or "contextual training" which is becoming more prevelant in law enforcement training. The headstomp is a viable tactic in a life threatening siutation if it is still ongoing, but if the threat has been nuetralized prior to the stomp you have switched to being the aggressor and may end up on the wrong end of a police investigation.

Once you have gotten your skills up and have developed the mindset to defend yourself you need to begin enhancing your judgement of "the appropriate response" through scenerios with escelating/de-
escelating solutions. This will help you create a frame of reference for your responses, and while violence of action is what will usually give you the best chance of survivng a truly violent encounter it is judegement which can help diminish the psychological and legal aftermath.

Keep safe and train hard/smart, Mark H

As a non-trained person if I was attacked by a group of people and had one down i'd stomp his head without thinking, but this is presuming that he's still moving (or able to get up and fight back).

If it was the last guy left I probably wouldn't (it's only motive is revenge), but then i'd be too busy kicking fuck out of his face instead lol (for being such cowards for group attacking I don't think anyone would be very sympathetic..).

Bit of an odd one really, do you really need to train to instinctively stamp on someone??

It seems to come naturally that's all (look at all the little people that do it after their mate KO's someone). Training to do something so simple [in my opinion] is a recipe for 'excessive' risks/damage. (But this is all as my novice, untrained opinion based on my presumed scenario.)

PS: my mate got his head stamped into a kerb after somebody hit him to the floor. It really messed his face up; broken cheekbone, pink (blood filled) eye, and 4 missing molars. Also my brother saw somebody's head collapse when a local little dickhead stamped on it. Ouchies.

I would have considered it before but not after seeing that mentally ill guy get stomped in a dojo. I'm all for beating the fuck out of a bully but if it costs you time in prison...forget it.

If someone had an edged blade or gun then different story.

I don't think you need to train a head stomp. Interesting enough in Karate we used to train 'heel stomps', although I think the aim of that is more for the stomach area or groin.

If It's a 1 on 1 situation and you have knocked the other person down, I prefer yelling "stay the fuck down!!!" as opposed to head stomping rigth away. If the assailant decides to try and get up, he'll likely use both hands to push himself up, and the opened/exposed rib cage is a great kicking target. Did that once... three cracked ribs prevented a repeat attack good enough for me at the time.

If it was a gang swarming, well honestly if that was my one and only opening I'd take it... besides it'd be tough to prove given that any of his 'buddies' could have stepped on him by accident in the confusion.

I, like Tac, prefer knee drops s you can restrain or get up and go just as fast. Knee drops feel more stable, powerful and focused to me.

D.M.B. wrote:

If It's a 1 on 1 situation and you have knocked the other person down, I prefer yelling "stay the fuck down!!!"

If it was a gang swarming, well honestly if that was my one and only opening I'd take it... .

I, like Tac, prefer knee drops s you can restrain or get up and go just as fast. Knee drops feel more stable, powerful and focused to me.

dang, you're going to make me say 'me-too'. it just sounds so weak
can i get away with saying, "i was going to say that" instead

Russ the Muss wrote:

D.M.B. wrote:

If It's a 1 on 1 situation and you have knocked the other person down, I prefer yelling "stay the fuck down!!!"

If it was a gang swarming, well honestly if that was my one and only opening I'd take it... .

I, like Tac, prefer knee drops s you can restrain or get up and go just as fast. Knee drops feel more stable, powerful and focused to me.

dang, you're going to make me say 'me-too'. it just sounds so weak
can i get away with saying, "i was going to say that" instead

great minds think alike!!


....



you know that's a really funny saying if you think about it. I think in this instance we are (obviously!!) great minds... but there are a lot of times I can think of where more than one person was thinking the same thing (not here on this board) and there was nothing great about it.... we could start with that other clip of those drunk 'chav's' throwing sloppy drunk punches and go from there

D.M.B. wrote:

you know that's a really funny saying if you think about it. I think in this instance we are (obviously!!) great minds... but there are a lot of times I can think of where more than one person was thinking the same thing (not here on this board) and there was nothing great about it.... we could start with that other clip of those drunk 'chav's' throwing sloppy drunk punches and go from there

no kidding,
it was like watching musical chairs for idiots--all that was missing was music,
like benny hill or dueling banjo's.

"okay beavis, the last one to get hit when the music stops, is the sheep--i brought the wellies"