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 Ive had it with NLP

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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Ive had it with NLP   Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:20 am

there are no coincidences Ive heard it said!

this months new NLP for Combatives CD is the "NLP Primer" my effort to cut through some of the assumptions and misunderstandings of NLP and how it can be applied to our SP training

if you are a member, yours is already in the post

the very next morning I stumble across this article

http://www.chrismorris.com/blog/2009/07/can-nlp-be-what-it-has-become/


Before the end of this year I will either stop using the NLP name altogether or at the very least be pushing people towards my own system and letting the NLP products trail out, POLITICALLY (as in, in the world, the world of large groups of humans banding together and acting like total bellends) NLP is too convoluted and stinks of freshly trimmed CULT - Ive always lived with the fact that I teach NLP without agreeing with all of it but since that film "the Secret" came out every whispery voiced, fat, patronising, middle classed, soft willed, greedy, idiot, cynical self styled "life coach/ spiritual guru" and thier bloody dog seems to be mixing NLP with their wooly interpretation of the so called "Law of Attraction" (aka the materialists guide to acquiring more things and deepthroating satans sausage just a little deeper)

NLP has become a parody of itself- NOT to say their isnt EXCELLENT material with the NLP stamp on it, but to say you "study NLP" has become next to meaningless and associates you with some right effing plonkers

added to that I think the business practices of the founder and his right hand man are fairly shitty (more and more people stuffed into seminar rooms as the prices go UP!) and Ive been threatened with law suits for very very minor "trespasses" (you may not say the name of the master, it offends the master it does, my preshussssss) just TOO many times... and for what?

most of what I teach comes from where NLP took their ideas from, not from what NLP has become... timeline therapy, eye accessing cues, VAK analysis.... purleaaase

why should I bear threats and promote this mess?

I shall n't

The plan: before the end of the year I will be running a seperate website dedicated to applied psychology anyway, it will have a "name" - there will be a psychology/sociology themed philosophy and system of techniques and principles with its own "label" to hang hats on and that is how we will move forward

NLP

Nice Long Penis

Neverending Long Pantomime

No Legitimate Paramaters

Never Lick Porcupines

onwards and upwards lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Ive had it with NLP   Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:31 pm

The fate of NLP is what happens to academia when you take away scientific standards, and all these other pesky obstacles to human nature, although they seem to be no more than speedbumps. But at least it provides a stable platform to shoot down bad ideas from for those who are inclined. Even if it is just an expression of primate territorial rivalry.

Consider medical school. People have to spend so much time and effort on it that if they graduate at all, they've probably at least learned a thing or two, even if they were more focused on the end-reward of the papers than on the knowledge itself. Without the legal requirement to make it so, don't you think there would be weekend courses in that stuff too?

Be a certified brain surgeon in just TWO EASY LESSONS! affraid affraid affraid

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PostSubject: Re: Ive had it with NLP   Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:44 pm

Quote:
"(aka the materialists guide to acquiring more things and deepthroating satans sausage just a little deeper)"
HAHAHA!! - yes very good.

New website? DVD? Looking forward to it all Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Ive had it with NLP   Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:09 am

Having read the article in question I can understand your frustration Richie. There is so much BS associated with NLP that it can be off putting for people.

When I first came across your material on YouTube I was impressed with both the level of social awareness that you had but also the psychological insight into exactly what was going on in given situations and shaping your thought processes to match those situations. You come across as widely read and knowledgable. When I researched further into what you do, I have to say alarms did sound when I read that NLP was involved. Having looked into it myself in the past I knew enough to know that there is A LOT of absolute arse out there being peddled as NLP...However, given that you seemed to be talking sense I signed up as a member despite the NLP monkier and certainly not because of it.

I guess my point is this: I personally would have been MORE attracted to signing up were you to have advertised your services as being 'psychology/sociology' rather than 'NLP' based (as a label rather than with any change to the content.) You're ability as a trainer and knowledge/experience as a human being comes across strongly and well enough to justify you re-branding the psychology/NLP side of your business and has the potential to increase your success rather than hinder it (in my opinion).

You're probably aware of all of this sort thing already but thought it was worth saying anyways.


Last edited by Slag34 on Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:20 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Ive had it with NLP   Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:48 am

Although i've been aware of NLP for a few years i'm naive as to what's happened to it. Is it a case of Students of Richard bandlers dilluting it and there students diluting it again or was Bandler developing stuff that wasn't what it's cracked up to be?
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PostSubject: Re: Ive had it with NLP   Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:28 pm

Slag34 wrote:
Having read the article in question I can understand your frustration Richie. There is so much BS associated with NLP that it can be off putting for people.

When I first came across your material on YouTube I was impressed with both the level of social awareness that you had but also the psychological insight into exactly what was going on in given situations and shaping your thought processes to match those situations. You come across as widely read and knowledgable. When I researched further into what you do, I have to say alarms did sound when I read that NLP was involved. Having looked into it myself in the past I knew enough to know that there is A LOT of absolute arse out there being peddled as NLP...However, given that you seemed to be talking sense I signed up as a member despite the NLP monkier and certainly not because of it.

I guess my point is this: I personally would have been MORE attracted to signing up were you to have advertised your services as being 'psychology/sociology' rather than 'NLP' based (as a label rather than with any change to the content.) You're ability as a trainer and knowledge/experience as a human being comes across strongly and well enough to justify you re-branding the psychology/NLP side of your business and has the potential to increase your success rather than hinder it (in my opinion).

You're probably aware of all of this sort thing already but thought it was worth saying anyways.

its well worth saying, gives me an insight into how a potential client weighs up the information



Quote :
Although i've been aware of NLP for a few years i'm naive as to what's happened to it. Is it a case of Students of Richard bandlers dilluting it and there students diluting it again or was Bandler developing stuff that wasn't what it's cracked up to be?

bit of both mate- not to say there isnt some really powerful stuff in there... but as with systema ( affraid Laughing -this joke will never get old) when you pull out the good stuff you end up going "wow thats great... but... er Ive also seen this done over here and over here"

so the good stuff isnt original, but it is a good assimiliation and remodellin (Im talking about NLP now) but for me its too vague for me to buy into it as a system

vagueness about the parameters of a system isnt cleverness, its fucking cheating by the way! whether in martial arts or psychology or whatever, when the parameters get vague you need to get suspiscious

sure BE vague if you want to be, keep it open... but then DONT charge people to qualify in your syllabus (a syllabus that has no real parameters isnt a syllabus at all) and DONT call it a "system"

the good bits of NLP you will find in linguistics, semantics, cognitive behavioural therapy, buddhism, zen applied to psychiatry (you didnt even know that was its own niche did ya??!! Wink ) tim leary, robert anton wilson, systems thinking... I could go on

the systems thinking one pisses me off, they NEVER ever ever credit systems thinking and NLP is basically systems thinking APPLIED to humans

but anyway...I digress

peace and love and good karma flower afro
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PostSubject: Re: Ive had it with NLP   Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:15 pm

Yeah, I have to say I do hold CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy) in high regard because, in my early mental period, I was put through CBT and it's excellent stuff. It's also been used with some of my Service Users in the past to great effect.

Glad that I could help give you an insight into how (at the very least one of) your potential clients weighs stuff up. I sure however you brand your combative psychology systems they will be a success simply because you're not talking shit mate. Word of mouth spreads these sort of things too and the examples on YouTube are a great advertising tool for what you're offering regardless of what it is labelled.
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PostSubject: Re: Ive had it with NLP   Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:19 pm

Richie wrote///
"Nice Long Penis"=NLP

oooo. i hear and obey master...i too wish to sport this nice long appendage of which you speak
and be a master lol!

whatever tweeks you're making mate, i trust it. i'll check it out on the other section--tonight in the wee hours after much kid drama today [joys of dad-hood].

may have a new member coming--interesting guy who i had a good pressure test conversation
with whilst in the library. he likes bagua--which is a magical word to Maija, is it not? anyway, if he surfaces, his name is Tony {Bonds i think}.

i think he was into kung fu, and had some street exposure...which was nice surprize for me since i was
wearing my baby-sitting hat at that moment and was taken aback.
lol!

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PostSubject: Re: Ive had it with NLP   Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:49 pm

I have to admit that I had to Wiki NLP before I joined this forum, as I'd never heard of it. I remember EST and those other 'empowerment system' but never researched into any of it very far. The people that were into them were not really 'my scene' ... OK they made me gag to tell the truth.
Why do I spend my internet time here? Its your breakdown and delivery of material, and the sanity and pragmatism of your approach that attracted me, sure I like the psychology part, but NLP in itself was not important to me. You are also very humorous .. always a good sign in my book, especially in the world of Martial Arts.
I'm looking forward to your new take of things, and knowing that you understand the dynamic balance of creating, then pressure testing as your ideas evolve, I'm sure your material will stay authentic.
After reading the article, the other thing that occurred to me was the parallel with old school Filipino Martial Arts, and modern day Martial Arts in general.
Back in the day, an Eskrimador was only given the title of 'Maestro' by others, and only because he had proved himself in fights and duels. Each generation was expected to understand the material, test it and make it their own, that is why you will see the older 'systems' and I use that word loosely, either staying within family/tribe, or then changing name with each generation. Sonny even said it to me - "I'm not teaching you, I'm showing you what I do, It's up to you to take that knowledge and make it your own".
Problem now, and obviously for a while in other arts, is that the 'take this, test it and make it your own' part has vanished and so there is nothing to keep the material, or generations of practitioners 'honest'. Seems the same with the NLP brigade who are selling an image, a name, a reputation, whatever, with no real pressure testing involved

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PostSubject: Re: Ive had it with NLP   Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:36 am

nice synopsis.
it makes me think of a certain nameless DC ninjitsu school that was taught by an unscrupulous
coke adict hedonist--not necessarily bad traits unless you depended on him for rigor and authentic
pressure tested techniques...a good trait for say 'animal house' style keg parties. he tried to sleep
with one of his female black belts. hmmm...again, a faux pas teacher thingy made worse by the fact
that he looked like jack black but wasn't as funny.

he invited me in once to stroke his ego in front of his class, and promptly either almost fell--or did, on
his arse during a demo that i didn't 'hand' him. it's a blur now. but it was definitely funny. an example of no real pressure tests, and a great art diluted to the point of warm pissy lipton's ice tea--with corn syrup and lemons to distract you from the fact it didn't carry the right punch [to continue the metaphor] of cafeine. ooo, it comes in a green bottle now...and the cap lights up, that's dreamy bounce

it taught me to be weary of bells and whistles...if you like the food in a cave shite hole, it's probably
good food. if upon entering the restaurant you go down a water slide and promptly have girls spoon feeding you the appetizers, the food is probably bubble and squeak last week fridge leftovers warmed
by the chef breathing over it affraid

i know it's not a rule, but it is the radar raising implicit system that i subconsciously ascribe to...well not subconscious any more since i've finally said it. and now i feel so much better lol!

but as previously stated...Richie's food, erm, psychological NLP--and beyond, stuff i trust.

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PostSubject: Re: Ive had it with NLP   Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:06 am

apologies guys. could you remind us what NLP is?
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PostSubject: Re: Ive had it with NLP   Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:29 pm

I hear ya on this one. It's like what you were mentioning on 'supra states' ...with NLP you gotta cut the fat. Use what's useful and toss out the useless jargon that's just there for smoke and mirrors.

I think you're right to shed the moniker 'NLP'. As others have mentioned, it's cult like following of clowns in some circles gives it a bad name.... but not all of the principles of actual NLP are bad, although they will not get used by as many people because just being associated with NLP is a turn off.

Back when I first discovered your stuff on youtube Richie, I naturally gravitated towards vids that referenced a psychological basis. I think one of the very first vids I watched besides your intro (which rocks btw) was 'combative psychology - learning to deal with verbal threat.' There are two parts to this, and in about 20 minutes of video, there is so much information in there... I wouldn't know where to begin but I can say that that one segment has been immensely valuable to me in a handfull of situations over the past year, one which had a lot of potential to turn very violent in a very public place... not only did I resolve the situation peacefully, but I took the piss out a guy that probably outweighed me by 20-30 lbs, and I OWE IT ALL TO THAT 20 MINUTES OF MATERIAL!! Smile

Here's an idea and I'm just throwin it out there for what it's worth.

The psychology tag will get a lot of people's attention. Most instructors talk about techniques but not always the psychology behind attacks and violence. I'd keep the word 'Psychology' in whatever you decide to call your re-vamped approach. Just my opinion. The term 'Combative Psychology' got me hooked and I'd bet I'm not the only one who loves this approach of yours. cheers

So if you had a program or system called 'Combative Psychology' or something along those lines, it could be like an umbrella... and under that umbrella you could have chapters like:

'Mind framing' - managing states in different situations
'dealing with adrenalin' - why your hands are shaking and how adrenalin affects your thinking
'Subconscious communication' - how language can be used for subconscious effects
'internal dialogue' - what to say to yourself... and what not to say....'


etc etc etc

anyways thats just my opinion. I know you don't need anyone tellin you how to run things so please don't think that. that's nto what I'm trying to say Smile I have a ton of respect for what you do!!

all the best, flower
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PostSubject: Re: Ive had it with NLP   Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:43 pm

So, how would you reccommend I go about learning the true essence of NLP? Should I just read around the subject, do a Psychology degree, get into the self-hypnosis and general far-outness of Anton-Wilson and Leary? It seems you have an incredibly functional, grounded and broad experience, approach and wealth of knowledge on the subject and that's what I would really like to have too! Anytime I search for NLP courses on the internet, I just find reams of corporate events inviting me to find the secret to conning the s**t out of people for 1000 a second (the irony)! None of it seems real if you know what I mean. I'm interested in exploring and changing the way that I and others filter and affect experience... is that so much to ask?!
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PostSubject: Re: Ive had it with NLP   Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:19 am

its hard to cut through the crap mate

Im pretty obsessed with the subject and have been since my early teens, so I learnt it inside out, followed the roots back to the source and even followed people who went from NLP and branched out into other things- you don't have to get into Leary and Robert Anton Wilson, but you you should have a rough understanding of them and all the other sources NLP drew from, Fritz Perls' gestalt therapy, the work of miller, gallanter and pribram, you really have to have read "steps toward an ecology of mind" by gregory bateson, have a working knowledge of systems thinking, Zen applied to Psychotherpay (I recommend thich nhat han) buddhism is never acknowledged but its there in NLP's hippy psychedelic southern californian 70's roots, you should know a bit about linguistics, semantics and Korzybski, get onto some Chomsky, Pavlov, transactional analysis, cognitive behavioural therapy, a bit of hypnosis, read derren browns trick of the mind, Virginia Satirs family therapy work... then get on to John Grinders work, read Anthony Robbins "awaken the giant within" and get the difference between NAC and NLP as a good comparitive point (NAC is what AR came up with after moving on from NLP), Connirae Andreas's parts therapy is excellent and powerful stuff, Maxwell Maltz's psychocybernetics will give you some early early roots of the type of direction of a field like NLP - there are other "personal development" type books that I had from that era that give you a framework for understanding how NLP grew and why it was so well recieved- you need to understand the "personal development" racket first I think, then see what NLP is peddling as its USP. Gives you a context.
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PostSubject: Re: Ive had it with NLP   Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:30 pm

I'm actually glad you're dropping NLP. I've listened to a number of your audio CDs, and I've always felt that they would stand quite well on their own without NLP reference at all.

It seems like NLP has become some kind of new-age cult magic. I think your better off without the baggage.

Richie, I love what your doing and find it useful, practical and understandable. Keep up the good work.


Also, just a comment on the "The Secret." My personal belief is that it is the biggest bit of tripe i've seen in years. Just another way for people to believe they can get something for nothing. Far to many people want to be able to magically wish their desires into existence and bypass that whole icky, hard work thing. Kind of how I feel about lotteries.
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PostSubject: Re: Ive had it with NLP   Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:38 pm

Thanks Richie, that's a pretty extensive list! I've already studied some CBT and transactional analysis; in fact, 'The Games People Play' is one of my favourite books! Do you think that, when Berne talks about becoming autonomous, he's pertaining to enlightenment? I think that all these modes of thought, technique and discipline are essentially 'different paths up the same mountain' (as C.S. Lewis wrote on the true essence of religion), which is one of the many reasons your methodology is so appealing to me - i.e. it combines many paths. Please don't misinterpret that quote, I abhor fundamentalist religions and their zealotry but believe that all the original teachings are basically metaphors for self development and enlightenment, perverted over time to the whim of the fevered egos that currently run this mess.
Anyway, I digress, thank you for the advice on learning NLP (Neurotic Lumbering Pricks, Nightmarish Labia Pustule, Naked Labotomy Prescription); I've just ordered 'Steps to an Ecology of the Mind', 'Tricks of the Mind', 'Manhood of Humanity', 'Awaken the Giant Within' and something someone else recommended to me called 'Fuck It: The Ultimate Spiritual Way'. I'll let you know how it goes.
Lastly, I just wanted to say how much I've enjoyed your audio CDs recently, particularly 'Blank Face' which I listened to just after I last posted on the forum. Do you have any plans to do any more that include so much on fundamental psychological principles? Either way, it's like you said on the 'Psychology of Violence' CD: you're speaking directly into our heads that way and it can be pretty powerful stuff! I think the combination of DVD with audio courses is a really good direction, especially for imparting large chunks of information and creating and anchoring states. Loving your work!
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PostSubject: Re: Ive had it with NLP   Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:02 am

thanks mate, yes, new Audio material and new DVDs are in development as we speak

seeking to both re emphasise the basic principles and push the boundaries
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PostSubject: Re: Ive had it with NLP   Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:00 am

I've been reading Derren Browns book and his critical analysis of NLP. He touches on the subject of Modelling and says it has it's uses but in certain areas it's been demonstrated that NlPers modelling the unconscious processes of Someone with particular skills has been no more fruitfull than someone without NLP knowledge modelling behaviour, and no quicker.

For a few years I was trying to get answers regarding modelling but people down the Gym don't really want you a)bugging them with lots of questions and b) stealing thir secrets. One of the great things about SFS is the questions i was seeking were answered really well. Now when it comes to fighting I believe that you need to model deeper than just the behavioural level so i can see NLP coming in very handy. Does modelling really have a lot of uses in different areas or has Derren nailed it? I ask because i learned this (NLP, modelling) from Tony robbins' book, unlimited power. while it is a great book I now read that Mr. Robbins, Mckenna ETC have reused claims that were way overhyped in the first place. I never really got much results on my own with the little knowledge that i gained from that book (regarding modelling) so have i been chasing after something that i needn't have bothered chasing? Can you really get the results that Mr. Robbins and others claim you can achieve?

On another tip, Rapport.

I read that by doing this (matching body language, breathing, words, tonality blah blah blah) you can really connect with anyone, in minutes and have "influence" over them. I personally am uncomfortable with the idea of using something to influence another person for selfish gain and as such didn't really use this to any great degree. It seems that almost everyone these days is matching and mirroring and it really fucks me off to be honest. It's obviously no substitute for personality and most of the time looks really unnatural. I've actually laughed out load when people have been so blatent that they look like twats and find myself conciously rearanging my body language to break rapport when this happens. Anyway, obviously i have no problem with mirroring naturally occuring through genuine interest but just wondered if this was an area of NLP that has been overhyped by the salesmen pig ?
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PostSubject: Re: Ive had it with NLP   Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:33 pm

Ive not forgotten your pms mr technics, many folk are emaling me saying they want more info on "soft skills"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_skills

matching and mirroring are cheap and faintly ridiculous ways of building rapport but they CAN sometimes work ... if applied after doing about 5 other things to build rapport first, they are icing NOT cake- Richard Bandler has openly poured contempt on "rapport bulding" techniques for a long time as being a "sideline suggestion" to use for a few minutes with difficult clients

their is a much better, more powerful, more sincere way of building deep rapport very rapidly outlined in my cd "Blank Face" if you cant make a total stranger say
"I dont know why Im telling you this..."
or
"I dont know why but I feel like Ive know you for ages..." within 10 minutes of using it, I'll refund you...

smug manipulative car salesman that I am Razz nah, seriously it is powerful stuff but if you lack that two key ingredients of "social intelligence" and "common sense" NOTHING you learn WILL WORK



I agree with Derren about modelling BUT at least NLP gives you a framework to break the modelling process down specficially- if you ask the right questions and pay attention it works really, really well

ask the right questions

pay attention

in fact... thats the answer to everything Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Ive had it with NLP   Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:19 am

The only view of NLP I've had is from the clips released by Richard on Youtube. It helped me through my post traumatic stress from watching my best friend kill herself better than anything else. Now that I finally have money and want to buy the whole DVD's, I find that they aren't for sale, and the clips are no longer on Youtube. If anyone wants to sell me them, send me files, link me to videos, whatever... The name doesn't matter, but the content means more to me than anything. Richie and Bob sitting on the couch, talking, was absolutely amazing, and I would love to see/hear it again.
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PostSubject: Re: Ive had it with NLP   Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:41 pm

alright Korox

you might want to be a bit subtle about infringing my copyright on my forum

and you should really post an intro in the general section

thankyou
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PostSubject: Re: Ive had it with NLP   Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:35 am

Heh, sorry dude.

I meant the little clips I had seen released by the Youtube account Streetfightsecrets, which I assume is you. I would prefer to buy the whole thing, of course, but I would also be happy with the snippets which were free... and I assume still would be, just no longer available in the same location. Sorry 'bout the miss communication there. Totally my bad.
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