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Danite



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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:29 am

Richie, thanks for the explanation.Asking questions is something the predator does to distract the prey!.But do you really think asking questions or acting a bit bizarre wouldnt cause a predator pause? After all he does have a scenario in mind,he does x, the victim does y.But if the intended victim does a then b couldnt that throw him off and create the opportunity to compound the effect of a pre-emptive strike, or to create the opportunity.Wouldnt this be a form of pattern interupt? I can see if dealing with some totaly ernraged out of control person, trying to play games wouldnt register on his rage saturated brain,but on a more cold criminal who thinks he has it 'all worked out" it might actually have greater effectas he is paying close attention to what his intended victim is doing, indeed his whole atatck is predicated upon the smooth running of his scenario?
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Kai Kuehn

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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:51 am

In not-yet-hot-situations, say in the very beginning of a potential interview phase, I found it very helpful to diffuse the situation through telling the could-be aggressor strange/weird stuff accompanied by appropriate gesture and facial expression. With the goal to make the other guy think that I am kinda strange/crazy and therefore unpredictable. For me it's a method of target hardening or early deescalation.
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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:21 am

Kai Kuehn wrote:
In not-yet-hot-situations, say in the very beginning of a potential interview phase, I found it very helpful to diffuse the situation through telling the could-be aggressor strange/weird stuff accompanied by appropriate gesture and facial expression. With the goal to make the other guy think that I am kinda strange/crazy and therefore unpredictable. For me it's a method of target hardening or early deescalation.

for use in "not yet hot" situations questions/bizzare behaviour will have an effect as a pattern interrupt, perhaps in that phase where someone is sizing you up- for target hardening and early deescalation, exactly, I cant put it better than Kai has

shall we move to actually describing scenarios?

I suspect that everyone one has some picture in mind of where and how they think this method would slot in- they dont have to be real life events you've lived through, just describe a situation where you think it would play out

remember there are no solid rules, it all depends on the circumstances- "ca depend si ca depend" I think someone translated it on the senshido forum for me as- so you cant be "wrong" in any idea you have

over to you guys Very Happy
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Sharif H



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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:21 pm

Hi Richard

There's a chance I may have missed it, but I don't think you mentioned where you stand on using a 'distracting question' as an action trigger. Seeing as being pre-emptive is often very difficult for most people, how do you feel about anchoring a specific phrase to pre-emptive strikes in training? You know, Pavlovian, repetitive, operative conditioning type thing.

Would you say it's essential to developing the ability to explode into attack mode from a position of acting submissive?

Thanks
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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:58 pm

Richard Grannon wrote:
Ive never been too convinced by the whole distraction thing in a purely SP context- I cant make it fit into a model of an altercation in which you are FORCED to go physical having exhausted all other possiblities- using a verbal set up question smacks to me of "stalking tender prey" Very Happy

the very first line, of my first post on this thread sir... the right honourable gentleman is unconvinced of the necessity or usefulness of asking a "distracting question"
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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:00 am

Richard Grannon wrote:
but trust me Ive been through this dance a few times with people and violence flairs so fast you will find you either
a. wont have time to ask a question and the preemptive strike, he is already winding up for his own p strike
b. wont need a "distractor"- you are in the middle of a verbal conflict, he is hyped and distracted enough just hit him : as the senshidoans often say "action beats reaction every time"

from my second post good sir
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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:07 am

Richard Grannon wrote:
Danite wrote:
Hi Richie, when say "get inside his ooda loop" are you saying the mere fact of asking questions of any kind is achieving that end?


Not at all- actually my posts on this topics should imply that Im really not into the whole "asking questions" thing at all

if you ask or say something nonsensical you might cause him to go into a transderviational search (a waking trance if you will) which does break his OODA loop/ predatory script but deliverd without social intelligence, skill and timing it will be like spitting in the rain and he may well just disregard what you've said

as he quite probably will if he decides he is going to hit you anyway, some people's response to the adrenaline rush is to shut out extraneous external signals, like noise... like the clever question/ mind game routine you are trying to run on him Smile

you say "is it a big giraffe or a little one?"

he hears "blah blah blah" ... and thinks "this twat is talking- shall i hit him whilst his jaw is open?"

after all he who controls the frame of an interaction controls the direction

no panaceas, no magic bullets, no neat solutions to complex problems

intelligence, skill, common sense, improvisation and responsiveness to the circumstances backed by good solid training is the way forward

I think the question thing is a bit of a gimmick in all honesty, people who are "into Self Protection" do it because it shoehorns a behavioural/social element into their pad drills

using it as an action trigger is unneccessary, the action trigger is the decision inside your head to go when "talkin's done"

just my opinion
Wink


from my fourth post on this thread my dear fellow

is the right honourable's view on this subject, as clear as mud as they say? what what!

awareness, perceptiveness, responsiveness and social intelligence the grounding attributes of the modern urban ninja


ps in case you didnt get it, I dont think much of training to ask a question before preemptive striking

pps I dont, do NOT think much of asking a question before preemptive striking

ppps and also I dont think much of the strategy of making a verbal inquiry to a potential attacker as a means of distracting the blaggard before delivering a surprise thorough bludgeoning
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:17 am

tacpro wrote:
Hi Richard

hello tacpro

tacpro wrote:
There's a chance I may have missed it, but I don't think you mentioned where you stand on using a 'distracting question' as an action trigger.

Yes, there is a chance you might have misssssed it.


tacpro wrote:
Seeing as being pre-emptive is often very difficult for most people, how do you feel about anchoring a specific phrase to pre-emptive strikes in training? You know, Pavlovian, repetitive, operative conditioning type thing.

Being pre-emptive is very difficult for most people? where have you got that notion from good sir?

Its "operant conditioning" and yes Ive got a rudimentary understanding.

I feel its unnecessary and a bit of a "self protection flavoured" gimmick. What does it gain you? What purpose does it serve? You want to distract the man or knock him out? And allow me to further ask you or indeed anyone- would you care to describe a situation either real or imaginary in which this bit of fluff would be ESSENTIAL?

coz you see, stringent fuckers that we are, we are supposed to trim the fat- if its not essential / doesnt serve a purpose it shouldnt really be in there[/quote]

tacpro wrote:

Would you say it's essential to developing the ability to explode into attack mode from a position of acting submissive?

Thanks

Indeed I would not say that. As it isnt. At all.

I hope Ive clarified my otherwise mysterious, impenetrable stance on this issue. I really should learn to be less obtuse.

Or perhaps to write more clearly...


Questions?


NO!


THEY NOT NEEDED

QUESTIONS ARE FLUFF, JUST HIT THE FUCKER
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nix

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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:12 am

What about rhetorical questions? clown
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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:33 am

nix wrote:
What about rhetorical questions? clown

lol!
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Sharif H



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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:15 am

Richard,

I'm still a bit confused. Are you saying you don't need to ask a question?

Very Happy


This is the part where I defend my self Smile... I did get that you weren't into the idea of distracting question, but my post referred to using a question as an action trigger. I do now clearly see that you did answer that in (I think) the second and fourth posts. I raise my hands in submission and gladly accept your piss-take cheers

The reason I ask is i've been in a couple of situations where I've been on the receiving end of threatening behaviour, and have had matey lined-up. They never did quite get to that point where I felt they needed bashing but I did feel that heavy reluctance (What GT calls the 95% Rule that he got from the book 'on killing'). Another time my friend was being attacked (although not very well) and I had the perfect window to remove the threat as I was outside his feild of vision and yet I found myself desperately exhausting all my conflict management skills so as to avoid breaking him. In all cases, tongue-fu prevailed, by the way.

I've heard quite a few other stories too of how people had the opportunity to be pre-emptive but just couldn't bring them selves to do it.

Now, I know from pressure testing with headgear and body shields etc, that when there is a HUGE amount of in-your-face aggression, being pre-emptive is quite easy (as an instant reaction). But, as a premeditated response (i.e having to think about it, decide to do it, and then actually do it) seems to be quite difficult.


Have you ever experienced this?

P.S thanks for the correction on 'operant' conditioning , I thought operative didn't sound right as I was typing it.
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RichardB



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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:13 pm

I've heard quite a few other stories too of how people had the opportunity to be pre-emptive but just couldn't bring them selves to do it.

Now, I know from pressure testing with headgear and body shields etc, that when there is a HUGE amount of in-your-face aggression, being pre-emptive is quite easy (as an instant reaction). But, as a premeditated response (i.e having to think about it, decide to do it, and then actually do it) seems to be quite difficult.



To me that sounds like an almost pure "psychology of violence problem." I.e., not being violently inclined, or more specifically; not being able to access that sociopathic state of mind when the time for it is right (as that state of mind is unlikely to do much good for you in any other context.)

A more illustrative example; the state of mind you'd be in for just picking a guy you dislike, walking over and - acting all friendly and civil until you have him set up well - attack with intent to do serious damage. Laugh, take his wallet, go buy a can of soda and keep doing whatever you were doing. Basically being a criminal. Except that you're doing something legal in a legal context, you've clarified the situation for witnesses, etc. (Ideally anyway, but you get the idea.)

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Sharif H



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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:15 pm

I think you're right RichardB

It seems that (for me anyway) anger is the means of accessing the sociopathic mind state. I have been there before... and I don't mean just losing my temper. It is in fact something I have had to suppress. But that's another story entirely.

But I (and the people I know who have experienced the same 'problem') just don't get angry when people want me to. If somebody is deliberately trying to wind me up or if their aggression is because they are drunk or insane (as in the cases where I found it difficult to be pre-emptive) for some reason I become so calm, level-headed and people-loving that there is no chance of accessing that inner psycho to do the business.

This is why I am interested in psychological action triggers. It seems that the mind state that got me into so much trouble in the past is exactly what is needed in certain SP scenarios. The hard part is controlling it instead of it controlling the person.
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:18 pm

sorry, i've got to say a joke--it's an addiction with me, no harm intended:

what about running toward someone yelling 'i have shit on my finger, uhhhh, help me?"

affraid

then grabbing their balls with the lower hand

lol!

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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:53 am

Ok I think there is a LOT more confusion around this issue than I first thought

I will make this non long winded and as clear as I can


LETS GET BACK TO BASICS

a preemptive strike:



Quote :
Preemptive war (or a preemptive strike) is waged in an attempt to repel or defeat a perceived inevitable offensive or invasion, or to gain a strategic advantage in an impending (allegedly unavoidable) war before that threat materializes


now PLEASE READ this:

Quote :
In a classical approach, self-defense is restricted to a response to an armed attack, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. However, following the practice of states an imminent threat emanating from neighbouring state or disturbances by enemy forces from foreign territory may justify preemptive attacks. Legal experts refer to the Caroline affair of 1837 when British forces in Canada crossed the United States border and killed several Canadian rebels and one American citizen who were preparing an offensive against the British in Canada. The United States rejected the legal ground of the Caroline case. In 1842, U.S. Secretary of State Daniel Webster pointed out that the necessity for forcible reaction must be "instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means, and no moment for deliberation."

if you've seen any of the M_Proj videos you'll know Ive started talking from a different Combative Paradigm focussing on negative assumptions like having : No Time, No Space, No footing etc

IF YOU ARENT ACTING OUT OF DESPERATION then you are "stalking tender prey" or "being a predator" or "dominating" your opponent under which circumstances "fairweather techniques" like kickboxing/muay thai/mma for the street will WORK... in fact pretty much anything will work because you are in a SUPERIOR position

MAKE NO MISTAKE, please listen to this

if your hand isnt ABSOLUTELY forced to make you perform a Preemptive Strike out of shear desperation then you are POSSIBLY COMMITTING A CRIME- it is NOT legal to knock someone out because they are being obnoxious to you

NOTE PLEASE the WORLD of difference legally morally and technically between

1. PSYCHOLOGICAL THREAT (verbal intimidation)

and

2. PHYSICAL THREAT (your physical well being is now at risk)

got that?

Yes the two are often combined, but your "GO SWITCH" is to be operated when you PERCIEVE the situation CROSSING THE LINE form psychological to physical and to simply and ONLY

GET IN THEIR FIRST

if he isnt going for it, then you arent "getting their first" are you? because he isnt even headed there!


PLEASE GO BACK AND REREAD

if I sound patronising and its annoying you thenn stick a picture of me on a thai pad and smash it up Very Happy this is too important to be misunderstood

Now then doesnt that put this

Quote :
The reason I ask is i've been in a couple of situations where I've been on the receiving end of threatening behaviour, and have had matey lined-up. They never did quite get to that point where I felt they needed bashing but I did feel that heavy reluctance (What GT calls the 95% Rule that he got from the book 'on killing'). Another time my friend was being attacked (although not very well) and I had the perfect window to remove the threat as I was outside his feild of vision and yet I found myself desperately exhausting all my conflict management skills so as to avoid breaking him. In all cases, tongue-fu prevailed, by the way.

in a different light????


Im not having a go at you Tacpro, I think many (not all) are confused on this issue and you've given me a great example so thank you (my horrid demeanour aint nothin but love, on this forum:

me= horrible drill instructor who shouts at you

you= recruit I would like to save from stomping or getting arrested

take nothing personally Very Happy

back to your post

Quote :
I had the perfect window to remove the threat as I was outside his feild of vision and yet I found myself desperately exhausting all my conflict management skills so as to avoid breaking him

well done you arent a criminally inclined idiot with anti social personality disorder!!! if you dont NEED to do it I'd really prefer if you didnt... and so would the police... and your parents/family/dependents... Ive got a mate in prison at the moment for defending himself and going too far and its a living hell for everyone who cares about him. Really fucking horrendous, lets not go there.


DO NOT use ANY physical tactic I have ever shown you unless you are absolutely DESPERATE

is that a bit clearer?

once you've put DESPERATION back into the equation, the negative assumptions that go with it- how do you feel about asking a question as a distractor?

as an anchor, I think its weak, it takes time and could signal intent- once you've decided you are now in PHYSICAL fight then STOP TALKING:

shut your jaw (keep it safe),
save your breath,
do not engage him cerebrally any more,
do not make eye contact look at his centre mass,
cease to percieve him as a human being (talking to the peice of meat will only humanise it again making you hesitant),
sink your weight...

...hit him.


"Talking mode" and "Fighting mode" are two seperate states


As RichB says if you want to feel like you have more of an aggressive, combative state available to you then the "Psychology of Violence" Core Visualisation will help but



Quote :
If somebody is deliberately trying to wind me up or if their aggression is because they are drunk or insane (as in the cases where I found it difficult to be pre-emptive) for some reason I become so calm, level-headed and people-loving that there is no chance of accessing that inner psycho to do the business.

where did you get the idea that being calm, level headed and people loving was a bad thing for self protection. Look at you... all free and not imprisoned or being chased by local wannabe gangsters Very Happy these are GOOD things mate

have you ever gotten yourself or anyone else hurt because of thess calm, level headed, people loving attributes?

if no: maybe you dont know yet how you would respond if your hand was TRULY forced? maybe if I glassed your mate in front of you you would find a accessing a state of aggressive determination and tenacious resolve to do me injury VERY easy to access

if yes: re train and re condition your mind and your emotions to respond in the way you need them to

I will gladly help Cool
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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:57 am

Quote :
A more illustrative example; the state of mind you'd be in for just picking a guy you dislike, walking over and - acting all friendly and civil until you have him set up well - attack with intent to do serious damage. Laugh, take his wallet, go buy a can of soda and keep doing whatever you were doing. Basically being a criminal.

and here is a scenario where asking a question as a set up does have validity, because you arent acting out of desperation now, you are choosing the range and the place, you have time, you have space, you've chosen to get him in an area with flat dry floors etc etc
you are now being the predator- he thinks your in a psychological engagement, oblivious that your intention is to engage him physically

hope this is clearer?
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Sharif H



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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:31 pm

Humbled. Truly.

As an instructor, I have always preached (and thought I practiced) avoidance over violence. You can see on my website that awareness and conflict management courses are given the main spotlight. Always have been. But this string of threads and particularly your last post has made me realise that there is that little bit of ego left in me that on some level wants to be the terminator.

I'm both saddened and gladdened that it's come to light. At least I am aware of it now.


Although I can still imagine using a distracting question in a scenario that starts verbal but where you can see the guy winding/psyching himself and you decide to get in there first, one point in your argument has made a lot of sense to me: That engaging in further verbal will surely humanize him more. After all, I teach people to use talking as a means of humanizing themselves.

I like moments like this... just when I'm getting a bit bored of the world of SP, something happens that causes me to rethink what I teach and the way I teach it.

Cheers Richard

PS - Re: the drill insturctor thing... don't worry about it. Trust me. I'm way beyond getting upset at those who beast me for my own good. If I didn't already acknowledge your superior position on the subject, I wouldn't even be on this forum. This is one of two SP forums I frequent, because they're the only ones where I'm learning more than I'm advising. I'm also half Scouser, so I don't mind a good piss-take either Smile
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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:12 am

Well I dont think you should be humbled or saddened really- every once in a while we need to hit the mental refresh on certain subjects thats all

I can bet that if you as an instructor have been confused on this one, plenty of other people have been, just noone is being as candid (brave) about admitting it

the subject is open to interpretation and it IS coloured and guided by subjective experience and preference... a guy will continue to preach as gospel today what seemed to work ok for him on numerous times 10 or even 20 years ago- saying no names Rolling Eyes


but let me stress: doormen cant knock obnoxious drunks out in such a predatory fashion anymore (no matter how obnoxious or drunk), certainly not since the SIA badge, increase in cctv coverage, mobile phone video functions, etc... and I think thats a good thing

also think its a good thing you havent bashed people you didnt need to bash, wish I could boast the same but Im a bit of a c-word and like fighting Wink so, a few times Ive gone when I didnt really have to

for me the 'question asking as action trigger or distraction' is "street flavoured" candy floss- nothing wrong with practising it I suppose, but certainly not essential

if you need something verbal that transits from conversation range to physical range as your own "anchor to a combative state" then look at what usually causes the transition: him stepping towards you (why is he stepping closer? cant he hear you from 3 paces away?)

so all you need say if you want to work it into your drills is "stay back" as you make "stay back" gestures with your hands (passive guard/fence/scts) and take a little step backwards to ready yourself for your preemptive strike, good for witnesses and you are clearly communicating your desire to converse from a polite distance, as is your right

dvd imminent

ps half a scouser? outrageous... does your right hand ever nick things out of your left hands pockets ? Razz
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Sharif H



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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:40 pm

No, it's the left hand that does the nicking Wink

Thanks for the reply!
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:54 pm

richie wrote: QUESTIONS ARE FLUFF, JUST HIT THE FUCKER

thats what i like, all the theories and bla bla, its nice time spending, but if the shit hits the van, just kick him in the groin and face and stamp on his head. no thinking, just explosion

and anybody knows if you meet a guy that you could not win.. you simply backdown, or run.
and anybody knows if you meet a guy that you could win, just wait or dont wait hit or dont hit, but its your game now , the other fucker knows it also, and he starting to run or backdown.

simple
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