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Slag34

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PostSubject: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:32 pm

We've all heard the anecdotes of muggers asking "Have you got the time?" etc as a verbal distraction tactic. I'm sure most of you are also familiar with the idea of setting up a pre-emptive strike by engaging the other individuals mind with a question. I was just wondering what your guys opinions are on what is the best question or type of question to use when setting up a pre-emptive strike during a confrontation?

Would a straight-forward:

"What do you want from me?"

be as distracting and/or engaging as something out of context like:

"Have you seen what happens to the guy in 'Deliverance'?"

or would something completely non-sensical work better like:

"Is that your badger touching my Mum over there?"

Go on people....what are your opinions?
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Ben



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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:02 pm

Nice idea. I personally wouldn't like to use distractions like this. I think for one, they might distract myself from what i really want to do, but more important, assuming you are facing some lowlife, wouldn't they know what you are doing? I mean they use this tactic themselves, so there is a chance they see it for what it is and pre-emptive strike before you can.

Other than this point, I like this idea of using random sentences to distract them. Seeing their face moments before you pre-emptive strike would be a picture.

It's easy to say from the comfort of my home right now, but if I had to distract I think I would prefer a physical distraction, for example the moving of a hand while the other comes up for a hook punch.
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:34 pm

Ive never been too convinced by the whole distraction thing in a purely SP context- I cant make it fit into a model of an altercation in which you are FORCED to go physical having exhausted all other possiblities- using a verbal set up question smacks to me of "stalking tender prey" Very Happy

... but I suppose there is nothing wrong with a little chav hunting now and then my vigilante bretheren ...

you could ask a nonsensical question that draws their attention to something on the lower half of their bodies, forcing them to focus internally (the nonsense forces the brain to do a "transderivational search", google it, and making it on their body forces them to do an inner kinaesthetic scanning) and sending their eyes downward would be a very cheeky set up to stealing a superman punch in the jaw

you wouldnt even need to say anything, just stop and go eyes wide staring in horror combined with an ambiguous gesture at their knee area- BINGO! Sleep sleepy time

or pretend to walk away, "fuck it im not arguing with you any more" get half way through the turn and then suddenly turn all the way back (great way to wind up the hips for power generation) through and into them with aforementioned superman punch to jaw

these strategies seem more predatory than defensive to me, Im not really suggesting their usage, the whole post is tongue in cheek and not meant to be serious advice but submitted for the perusal of interested folk for entertainment purposes only... m'lud Very Happy
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Danite



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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:30 pm

You can also try simply sritiking in the middle of a sentence or a word. His brain is expecting a logic completion of a sentence or an idea so while he is waiting to here the next word then might be a good time to go for it..Also pretend you dont speak english at all, and start talking in some realistic sounding jibberish, that really makes them think about how to get their point across to you and fully enagages theri brains. BUt remember this is for entertainment purposes only and all the other stuff Richie said Cool
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:45 pm

Quote :

you wouldnt even need to say anything, just stop and go eyes wide staring in horror combined with an ambiguous gesture at their knee area- BINGO! Sleep sleepy time

That's pretty funny....reminds me of 'void style' ninjitsu. Never been a big fan of ninjitsu as a lot of it seems to require complete compliance from the opponent...but the sneaky, sneaky stuff they do can be fun to learn.

Yeah, just for the record...I wasn't suggesting just going up to folk and distracting them before twating them in the face for no reason. I was kinda thinking, should you get into an argument which is clearly escalating and a pre-emptive strike was required in order to ensure your safety, would preceding it with a distracting question work?....and if so what kind of question?

...Saying that...The whole idea of 'chav hunting' does sound quite appealing Laughing Maybe we could lobby the government to instate it as a ethical alternative to fox hunting lol
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:33 pm

Mmmm, I like sneaky Very Happy .
I've fallen for the knee look and over the shoulder glance, more times than I care to remember playing Eskrima - Also the hold on a minute while I cough gesture, the old shoelace ploy and the can I offer you the handle of my weapon gambit. Yep, they all work - we're just a bunch of monkeys really.
So, are you thinking open season for the chav, or should it start on the glorious 6th? Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:56 am

Meet me in Birkenhead town centre for the hunt, I'll be the one on the grey charger sporting a bugle

"view hallooo" !


all initiates will be blooded with a soggy burbery cap



Slaggo, I know you werent saying just bash people and when we think about altercations it can seem like a logical thing to do "I know Im going to reach a point in this verbal altercation where I decide I have to hit him so why not distract him first"
but trust me Ive been through this dance a few times with people and violence flairs so fast you will find you either
a. wont have time to ask a question and the preemptive strike, he is already winding up for his own p strike
b. wont need a "distractor"- you are in the middle of a verbal conflict, he is hyped and distracted enough just hit him : as the senshidoans often say "action beats reaction every time"

I have never gone from a verbal to a preemptive strike or restraint and felt afterwards "gosh that would have gone so much better if I had asked a distracting question first"

falsely communicate compliance or lack of violent intent with your body language, gestures, facial expression, voice tone and demanour, they say communnication is 80% non verbal anyway, THEN deliver with explosivity

that should easily be enough, it always has been for me- plus it gives your stressed out mind less to think about instead of trying to stammer through a weird question, just bang him, get inside his OODA loop break it, job done
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Slag34

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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:30 pm

Quote :
all initiates will be blooded with a soggy burbery cap

lol!

Excellent stuff!

Yeah, I guess my experiences with confrontation have generally been in the more controlled setting of mental health projects or secure units where there is a LOT of verbal before it becomes physical and then avoidance and/or restraint are the only options if verbal distraction or de-escalation fails. Which is why the verbal build up to things interests me so much...and why I'm unsure as to how the skills I have learnt in these, often heated and very threatening, situations could be applied to a situation on the street and whether any of these 'skills' will be detrimental in those circumstances.

I fully appreciate the advice and couldn't agree more with the importance of body language in communication. It's something that I stress to my staff on a regular basis and should really be thinking about myself in other situations outside of work.

I've been looking into the whole OODA loop thing. Is there any specific reference material that anyone can recommend on the subject?
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maija
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:04 pm

From a thread on the The Dog Brothers forum about this same issue -
Quote:
"In his book, "Dead or Alive:The Choice Is Yours" Geoff Thompson lists
abstract question asking as both a deterrent/confuser and as a an
action trigger.

As a deterrent/confuser:
This is generally
used in the early part of the run-in before the adrenaline has started
pumping. "How's your brother/mother these days?" "Is your sister's
name Mary?" "Don't you know my cousin, David?". This can be a series of
questions wherein your "recognition" of the attacker may buy you time,
or plant the seed of doubt in their head (Maybe this guy really does
know someone I know)

As an action trigger:
An action trigger
would be defined as something that prepares you mentally for your
pre-emptive strike while throwing your adversary off guard. It can be a
simple question or something abstract that makes no sense at all. As
Thompson writes, "A submissive question is also a subliminal
indication that you wish to prolong the conversation, whereas shorter
sentences, certainly single syllables, send the message that the
conversation is coming to an end."
(and that fight is about the start)

"I'm sorry I didn't hear you, what did you say?"

"What was the score in the game tonight?"

"Did you see that chicken video?"

I
saw a bouncer use the abstract question technique one night with an
extremely drunk client. No matter what the drunk would say, the bouncer
kept asking things like "What is your favorite color?", "Can you fix a
radiator?", "Do pickles give you gas?". It completely disarmed the
drunk by keeping him mentally off-balance. So much so that he forgot
about the fight he was about to get into, mumble something about "Too
confusing..." and wandered off.

Not that a prolonged line of
questioning would work in a sucker punch situation, but a single
abstract question can buy you some time."

Perhaps it' s a question of range?

Here is another story from the same thread, totally anecdotal of course, but interesting. Story is from an Israeli soldier:

"In the first incident I was driving an unmarked jeep from Jerusalem to
the north of Israel to teach a week long in service training for
snipers. In Israel we have different colored license plates for our
vehicles. Yellow and black plates for Israeli citizens both Arab and
Jews, blue or green for Palestinians, red plates for police vehicles,
Black with white letters for IDF and white with black letters for
diplomatic vehicles. The jeep I was driving had yellow and black plates
on it and inside the jeep I had green plates and also red plates that I
could put on the Jeep if I saw the need. The jeep had a siren and pa
system and a kojack blue light, along with two sets of radios law
enforcement and IDF radios.

I left Jerusalem heading north
through Ramallah in Samaria AKA northern part of the so called west
bank. As I had a bunch of equipment related to the teaching of the
course, I didn't want to be bothered by taking either my sniping rifle
or my M16 rifle, so I was armed with a mini Uzi and a Glock 21 pistol
which happened to be the first one that entered Israel.

Since I
was going to be in for a long drive I was wearing the Glock in an IWB
holster carried cross draw and was wearing the mini Uzi with the stock
folded and the sling around my neck carried muzzle down between my
legs. The Uzi had two mags in it and I carried four more if I remember
correctly more in my left cargo pocket of my pants.

The weather
was warm and while I drove I was drinking water to keep hydrated and
about 30-45 minutes north of Ramallah I felt the need for a pit stop so
I pulled the jeep over and walked away from the jeep which was parked
along side the two lane country road. I walked away from the jeep into
the brush as a means of concealment so if the jeep attracted unwanted
attention I was away from it and hidden so I could then take the
correct action if need be.

As I got ready to do my business I
moved the Uzi from around my neck hanging down like a neck tie would,
so I moved the weapon to my left shoulder, The reason being if it
should happen to slide of my should it would not effect my aim, which
could have resulted in wet pants.

I had just started when a
Hamas looking Arab approached me from the right side asking me if I
needed help. I replied that I was fine and he should freeze or suffer
bad things to come. He kept walking towards me starting in on the usual
BS we are family, we are cousins let me help you.

I told him
that just because my forefather Avraham slept with some arab whore did
not in my mind make us family and we all should learn that having sex
with arab whores is not the thing to do.

My response was not
what he thought he would get as it was far outside the norms of the
middle east, which by the look on his face caused his thought process
to short circuit which gave me time to finish and get myself together
as it were. He then started to walk towards me again.

I told him
he was either a terrorist looking for a victim or he was a fag but the
end result would be the same that I would kill him where he stood. I
then pivoted so he could see I was armed, which made him freeze.

He
then got this grin on his face and said Yahud, Jew if every Jew was
like you their would never be a Palestinian state but most Jews were
week and they would get their state in the end and then he walked off.

He was later found by the IDF and had a large knife."

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Danite



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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:05 pm

Bet you $100 that story is BS. "A hamas looking Arab" what f.. is that?
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:07 pm

Hi Richie, when say "get inside his ooda loop" are you saying the mere fact of asking questions of any kind is achieving that end? I agree with your suggestion to play calm and "submissive" as it raises his ego and lowers his guard, then blam! explode=total suprise.Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:10 pm

PS about that story, I would strongly advise anybody who goes to the ME and isnt armed and with a license to kill NOT to talk to the locals that way. "Honour" is everything to them, watch your step with how you talk over there, I have seen a scrawny little guy wade into 3-4 big guys and get beaten up badly over the issue of saving face and honour.Just a little friendly advice.
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:03 pm

I too am not feeling that story I love you

it positively hums of ethnocentricism, bigotry and pure bs

Quote :
then got this grin on his face and said Yahud, Jew if every Jew was
like you their would never be a Palestinian state but most Jews were
week and they would get their state in the end and then he walked off.

oh look the Arabic character in the story has dropped in a CLANGER of a political message right at the end of the tale... how convenient

"As the Aliens life blood seeped out onto the sand his last words were 'I respect you my human enemy because you are strong... if only all humans were as strong as you we aliens wouldnt stand a chance of enslaving your planet' then he done a die, then I slung my ray gun over my shoulder and flipped the hood of my cloak and then I walked off."


I know the "point" of the story was ostensibly that saying incredibly offensive things whilst doing a wee with both your glock and your uzi on the blind side of your "alleged large knife weilding/strange acting and wait for it...Hamas looking(!!! Shocked )" opponent (read some dude walking around where he probably lives- damn his insolence and insubordination!) counts as a verbal distraction but the point is pretty much eclipsed by the sheer offensiveness of the tale

no Im not anti semetic, nor anti arabic, nor anti aunties... Im not racist, Ill shag anyone me Very Happy

in all seriousness though

the story is kind of relevant, the intent behind though is plainly UGLY
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:19 pm

Danite wrote:
Hi Richie, when say "get inside his ooda loop" are you saying the mere fact of asking questions of any kind is achieving that end?


Not at all- actually my posts on this topicsshould imply that Im really not into the whole "asking questions" thing at all

if you ask or say something nonsensical you might cause him to go into a transderviational search (a waking trance if you will) which does break his OODA loop/ predatory script but deliverd without social intelligence, skill and timing it will be like spitting in the rain and he may well just disregard what you've said

as he quite probably will if he decides he is going to hit you anyway, some people's response to the adrenaline rush is to shut out extraneous external signals, like noise... like the clever question/ mind game routine you are trying to run on him Smile

you say "is it a big giraffe or a little one?"

he hears "blah blah blah" ... and thinks "this twat is talking- shall i hit him whilst his jaw is open?"

after all he who controls the frame of an interaction controls the direction

no panaceas, no magic bullets, no neat solutions to complex problems

intelligence, skill, common sense, improvisation and responsiveness to the circumstances backed by good solid training is the way forward

I think the question thing is a bit of a gimmick in all honesty, people who are "into Self Protection" do it because it shoehorns a behavioural/social element into their pad drills

using it as an action trigger is unneccessary, the action trigger is the decision inside your head to go when "talkin's done"

just my opinion



ps asking drunks nonsensical questions on the door is fun, but not professional- it prolongs the interaction when they should just be simply ignored- if they are a physical threat or inconvenince (standing in the path of the door, by a fire exit, next to legitiamte punters q-ing) then deal with them as such, otherwise ignore them, to do anything else is a bit of an indulgence... thats not to say I havent enjoyed focking with drunks minds any less than the next bored doorman on a slow night Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:39 pm

Richie said:
"the story is kind of relevant, the intent behind though is plainly UGLY"

For sure ... I did contemplate a while whether or not to post it, because it is indeed ugly. It also might be a big load of BS which would mean it had NO relevance. However the guy that posted it, not the same as in the story, has credibility, so I thought it worth looking at.
It is an example of what we are discussing and it's sometimes educational to see windows into other worlds ... even though you don't want to go there yourself.

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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:53 am

Hi Richie, having lived in that part of the wrold for a number of years , in my opinion, the point of the story was this.The only way the Jews are going to be able to live in peace is by showing a tenacious resolve to use violence at all times when dealing witha challenge from an arab.The real point of this story is to back a right wing political agenda that refuses any compromise with arabs.Now I dont want to get into the politics here, and whether or not this is accurate and to what degree,the point was not so much to be ugly per sea but to be defensive in an ugly way.Again not justifying it, just explaining what I think is the intent of these kinds of stories invented for the tourists.

Now speaking of tenacious resolve to defend oneself using ugly methods cheers I was under the impression that you were saying that asking questions would set his mind of into 'search for answer mode" which could be the right moment to 'go for it" I will review the material again , I guess I didnt understand it right.Thanks for the answer.
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:44 am

I meet a lot of Israeli guys through my Krav Maga training and gradings/seminars etc. We try and stay out of the politics as much as possible and we do have some muslim guys who train with us and the Israeli's are ok with that. It seems that the general Israeli mindset is that, if defending yourself, then you do so with complete brutality and without remorse. Which I can only imagine is born out of the systems beginnings against Nazi bully gangs. I can see how mindset could spill over into the above type of stories and completely agree that things like that are likely to be made up for effect rather than having a basis in reality. Most of the stories you hear from the Israeli guys are fairly balanced. They'll tell you one story where someone has used a technique and escaped a situation and then. almost immediately, tell you another story about someone who used the technique and died as a result. They're usually stories about people they have/had a person relationship with.

Isn't it strange that people whose beliefs aren't that far apart are so opposed to each other. It's a shame really. They need some more Rasta's out there I think...as they consider themselves one of the Twelve Tribes of Israel...things might be a little more chilled then. One Love! flower
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:35 pm

Danite wrote:
I was under the impression that you were saying that asking questions would set his mind of into 'search for answer mode" which could be the right moment to 'go for it" I will review the material again , I guess I didnt understand it right.Thanks for the answer.

do you mean I was saying it here on this topic or somewhere in the material? Sometimes my training methodology changes, usually not too drastically, over time with experience or exposure to other methods but I dont think Ive ever been a big proponent of the "ask a question to set up preemptive strike" routine

Its only real place is in the psychological game of a knife threat, where I think it could even be regarded as an almost essential component, but then the prime objective in a knife threat scenario is NOT violence, its THREAT so verbal interaction/instruction is the focus.... in most street fights the verbal interaction is not the focus it is pretty much INCIDENTAL
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:39 pm

just as a post script Im not comfortable with any SP themed stories or posts that seem to have any kind of political or religious agenda (big P or small p - agendas are always a tedious manipulation)

we are here to talk about SP and martial arts

if you are a nerd for martial arts and/or SP then we are "practising the same religion" and thats always been good enough for me on me travels farao
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:39 pm

Slag34 most Israelis I know ( I have kown and know many) would much rather be chilling and grilling with their friends and familly than having to do this war crap thing.In fact most palestinians I have known would also like to be doing the same things.Without getting into the poltiics here it is indeed a shame to see the way the ME in general is awash in such horrid problems.Look at your class for example , you say israels and muslims train to gether no problem.From what I have seen, when both are left alone to be themselves without poltics getting into it. most Israelis and palestinians are good natured folks who just want to live like normal people. I hope they will sort it out one day soon.The ME is such a wonderful place when it is working right!
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:48 pm

HI Richei, I will review from what material I got that impression from, could be mistake, seems I misunderstood the "ooda loop" concept as well.Thanks

PS saw the attack the attacker dvd again, it really is such good advice to get out of the defensive mindset and to immediatly go offensive.If one attacks the intetnion and capacity of the attacker to act that often will stymie or dissipate the specific attack.You are doing a very good job at giving the right kind of advice to people who are often under misconceptions.The type of training and methods you advocate allow anybody to have a fighting chance against even a hardened strret type thug.Please keep the 'good stuff" coming!
cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:01 pm

Yeah, just asking a question is not going to "break the OODA loop" or in other words induce shock or induce a trance or however else we want to put it- we ask questions all the time in converations and just unconsciously respond to them quite easily

sometimes I think the problem is that I and other instructors will say things and just assume people know what is being said- we had this quite recently when discussing NLP and its limitations in training in another thread in this section

in that case I found that because Ive been into this kind of training for a number of years I just assume people will fill in the gaps where I dont really explain things all that well, but sometimes what people fill those gaps in with is some kind of assumption

In that case I was making a massive assumption that people would know when I was talking about using NLP to prepare for a fight and actually using NLP in the middle of a fight- I never say, I just assume people will slot it into place, which is risky- even other instructors get it wrong

its the limitations of the format in which we interact and my slightly slapdash approach to teaching, I tend to "chunk large" and let people work the rest out which might be the trouble

so to come back to the OODA loop- it depends on what your understandin of:

a. what the OODA loop is (for me its just a model for understadning momement to moment conscious awareness nothing more nothing less, much like its predescessor the TOTE)

b. the expression "breaking the OODA loop" is (for me inducing shock or taking them to a place psychologically that they dont have any mental software to deal with it- its a momentary effect, unless you traumatise them so badly they go catatonic)

if you ask someone who is ready to fight a question they will likely disregard it, end result as a precursor to violence? minimal effect

if you ask someone who is going about their business a question they will likely try and answer it, end result as a precursor to violence? maximal effect

in that context it seems its use is mainly offensive and/or predatory

glad you liked the DVD mate, I enjoyed making it Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:14 pm

Thanks for the break down on the OODA Loop stuff mate. I think I have a better understanding of what it's all about now. Certainly appreciate your responses in regards to the original question regarding asking questions. The knife/stick/gun threat scenario is where I've come across the questioning kind of thing. In the 'threat' scenario what route of interaction do you feel would be best? Do you have any advice in manipulating such interactions to the advantage of those being threatened?

Also...Very much agree with you about the study of SP and martial arts being a uniting force. Shared interests are what brings people from different walks of life together. Just wanted to assure you that any reference by myself to religious affiliations within this thread were merely an expression of that opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:50 pm

but sir, the strategy you ask after is in the beautifully creafted "knife offence" ebook in the members section for you cheers have you not studied its every word, night and day?
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PostSubject: Re: Distraction/Mind Engagement   Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:50 pm

The 'Knife Offence' DVD and Ebook are most worthy indeed Very Happy , and I think it is an important point you make, Richie, regarding the different psychology of a threat using a knife, say, with robbery as the point, as opposed to an attack or fight kicking off.

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