Are we all capable of violence?

Roadkill just sent me this interesting article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8043688.stm

nice article...
i wonder whether at least one of the missing pieces is tied to
not having to re-traverse the same right of passage that is,
"overcoming the fear of violence" in the first place. the rush
being the moment one was able to meet one's greatest fear
and conquer within and without [oneself and one's adversary].

i recall early fights and it's association with my temper, and as
such not wishing to allow my anger to be dilluted as a result. i
was tied to experiences where i saw my self more succesful
when angry. i never knew about triggers and anchors and wearing
hats.

i suspect one of the answers lies in the insidious relationship of
that which has benefitted us--and the baggage that comes with
all things half full and half empty. mis-directed and mindless violence
verses self-introspection and guided violence. this is why a movie
like 'unleashed' is appealing. control it and you've gotten closer to
solving the riddle. let it serve you and not the inverse.

not unlike some odd sort of trauma bonding. predator and prey, and
nothing in between. winning means i'm not losing and all the rest of
it. but the more unstable and confused the mind, the more volatile the
possible outcomes.

really good food for thought. one has to add acculturation and naturalized
behavior which yields numbness to things others don't often entertain.
i say this because of the 'shooting' outside my house last night. the guy
who left the seen was calmly riding a bike as if either high or numb to
the damage he left behind. casings on the sidewalk, the whole bit. i'm
sure if he's like several of the tough kids i've met that have gone through
alot [i've worked with children of homeless families on one summer],
their lens on the world is so entirely jaded and confused that what goes
on in songs and t.v. shows is taken more face value than hyperbole.

Yes, good article -
I believe we are all capable of violence - I think it's part of the human/animal make up - it's natural.
I also agree about the socialization and environmental effects that keep it in check.
We have learned as a species that we can survive better as a tribe, so have developed strategies for the good of the tribe over the desires of the individual which might be detrimental to the tribe as a whole - i.e. killing other members of the tribe.
Unfortunately, as Russ pointed out, there are some that grow up not learning this part of the puzzle, and really don't give a frak about what they do. (Or perhaps they are so disconnected, that most everyone is considered outside their tribe so fair game?)

From where I stand, at the naturally non-violent end of the spectrum, I think it is useful to gain access to this 'violent area' of the brain, to at least see what's there. Learn some control of it and gain confidence in the idea I can call upon it if necessary. I suspect this may be distasteful to some who see themselves as peaceable, but I see nothing wrong with exploring what's already inside my head!
Peace is good - Love it! But violence is occasionally necessary.

Also, I think The Dog Brothers are onto something. I'll try to find an appropriate clip from Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny about this, but basically they talk about their "Gatherings" as a forum in which to practice many things - physical skills, overcoming fear, understanding aggression, being part of a 'tribe' etc. It works as a rite of passage for many, and they talk alot about transmuting the unhealthy aggression of 'predator' to the healthy aggression of 'protector'.
Using your powers for good and all ....

Part that scares me most about the article is the 'taking orders from the authority figure in the white coat' syndrome. I wonder whether people unwilling to fight themselves are more, or less likely, to turn up the voltage when told by 'a superior' to do so ...?

I don't know if this is what you have in mind Maija, but Marc Denny goes into the thing about "activating the watcher" equally as they go into the adrenal state in the clip called "knife rumination" if you scroll down a little bit on this page. http://www.dogbrothers.com/pages/multimedia.html The unorganized militia may be the one for larger social roles. Protector, etc. A little bit further down the page.

First question that pops into my mind is how do we use these things? Dopamine rewards, orders from authority, damage to the pre-frontal cortex... No let's scrape that last one from the list.

BTW regarding orders from authority. Isn't religious terrorism an almost perfect demonstration of the application of that? Using internal imagery to apply authority as a violence enabling factor. Incorporating it into the POV work may be worthwhile. Not necessarily religion, just whatever kind of authority works best for the individual. Dopamine is going on regardless. But it might be worth looking into deliberately linking a dopamine high to fighting. To the extent that it is controllable for the individual of course.

I believe that is a type of power tripping coming from dominating others. Going on the premise that anything you can do, can also be replicated mentally, and the brain's physiology can't really tell much of a difference as it relates to brain chemicals. Just visualize beating the shit out of people and really enjoying it. Hearing them beg and plead maybe. Savage and illegal. But I think that's the recipie. Just don't do this one anywhere near as much as the one you want to physically do for real. With stop buttons and everthing. But that dopamine high hanging there as a treat if you really build it up should have you revving to go just like one of these attack dogs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc5P8n3LRak

BTW Russ. That movie "Unleashed" is called "Danny the dog" on the European market. Quite fitting...

Dogs do seeem like a fitting analogy too. Aggression and motivation honed razor sharp, but at the same time the dog needs to be disciplined enough to stop when told. Regardless of how much they want to keep going.

Quote :

their lens on the world is so entirely jaded and confused that what goes
on in songs and t.v. shows is taken more face value than hyperbole.

thats interesting, every time I worked with kids with problems from bad areas, I usually found they were a contradictory mix of excessive life experience and appalling naivete - the outcome of being "parented" by the t.v. and a peer group of fellow teenagers maybe?

Quote :

But could we ever harm someone who hasn't caused us any harm, merely because of an idea or ideology?

The much-cited Milgram experiment of 1961 suggests the answer might be yes. Members of the public were asked to give a shock to a "volunteer" every time they got an answer from a multiple questions test wrong. The shocks were to be increased incrementally, up until the lethal 450v shock.

What the participants didn't know was that the "volunteer" was acting and hadn't been receiving shocks. But still two-thirds were prepared to deliver the "fatal" 450v shock because of the supervision of a white-coated authority figure.

The experiment has often been used as the proof that we are all capable of violence within a certain framework. We struggle to accept this, but the science seems to suggest we are wrong.

Psychologists have tried to replicate this experimental effect many times since and failed- the Milgram experiment might tell us more about the obedience to autority figures of those people participating in it at THAT specific time (early 60's I think) than it does about the general human condition.
Culture is changing rapidly, at an accelerating rate, our values and priorities look very different to those of our parents and make our grandparents appear totally foreign.
Speak to any "figure of authority", police, doctors, teachers and they will tell you respect for their role/status has decreased in the last 20 years- no surprise we live in a culture where we pry into and deconstruct everything and anyone - no bad thing either, its just progress.
The Milgram experiment is, in my opinion, an interesting anachronism and offers insight only into human behaviour as it it pertains to those humans living in a cultural state of unquestioning obedience to authority.
A few people outright refused to do it on the original experiment, wish I could find their clips

Hmm.... True. I think the same "thing" exists in the human mind though, but the trigger has changed. Authority is no longer "it." Maybe "cool" is the new authority... Peer-pressure seems to be powerful these days. I suppose these things vary a lot from person to person anyway. Some people will do things they don't want for money.

"Here, eat this bunch of squishy worms. 1000 if you do"

And then there's a while of "oh..." "I don't know" "yuck" "1000 huh?" "hmm" But regardless of the outcome at this point it's clear they're actually considering it.

On the other hand some people simply won't and others do stuff like that for free, for fun even.

Richard Grannon wrote:

wish I could find their clips

Is this what you seek? http://www.videosift.com/video/The-Original-Milgram-Experiment-1961

if so here is the direct link to download the clip http://cdn.livevideo.com/video/flash8/00/1200/90989.flv

Its the closest I could find... seems that penn university is keeping tight grips on it.

Thanks RichardB, that was the clip I was thinking of ...and look, there was a whole thing on head butts too - what synchronicity!

I think 'cool' and peer pressure have always been motivators - witch burning, lynch mobs etc.
Nice to know that the experiment has not been replicated, but even though there's less respect for authority now, there are still those 'offers you can't refuse' set ups, where the powerful exert influence over the less so.
The religious, and other violent nutters probably have all the influences working together for them - dopamine, peer pressure/group dynamic and brain washing from authority ....

Nice one Roadkill



I think its worth drawing a strong deliniation between the "doing what you dont want to because because youre scared of daddy figure" effect is different to the "lets project our own psychological vomit onto the conveniently vulnerable and alientated old woman/foriegner/ goat" effect (there are proper names for these effects that are more succint, but I cant remember them )

but both of them certainly come into play when looking at witch hunt/lynch mob/hunt the commie/ chavs kicking someone to death "pack activities"-



Im no dog psych but dogs will be better behaved when just put into a pack of well behaved dogs (cesar milan therapy styley) and wil become more ferocious and feral when put into a pack of wild dogs wont they?

Richie said:

"every time I worked with kids with problems from bad areas, I usually found they were a contradictory mix of excessive life experience and appalling naivete - the outcome of being "parented" by the t.v. and a peer group of fellow teenagers maybe?"


couldn't have summed it up more concisely and accurately!!! most of the kids i've met that fall into
the catagory 'at-risk' couldn't be more out of touch with dangers/options/consequence...yet engage
them in conversation and it's all: there was a shooting at...; ...got jumped by; etc... and i've noticed
a tendency to laugh at inappropriate times. the worst of which was a recap by a guy who offered
PCP at one of his parties and joked about the 'dumb bitch' who everyone screwed because she was
virtually awake and nonreceptive--adding to his punchline that she all of a sudden ran into the street
screaming and naked. no way of proving what/where/when/who...in this case it was a young co-worker
at a shitty job.

two nights ago two teens were having a shootout outside my house--it was surreal, not as much for
the obvious dangers, but for the way they were carrying it out; my wife saw the tail end of it, and her
friend caught the beginning [bursts of related automatic fire were going on blocks away]. one of
the guys was walking up the sidewalk shooting as if unconcerned for the potential outcomes either
way, the other guy was in the street [on a bike] coasting slowly and shooting back in the same manner. a row of parked cars seperated the two [between curb and road]. they proceded up the side walk/road a ways, then went on seperately. i knew what the sound was and directed my wife to stay down because
we have giant windows that start knee high; while i was running my daughter in her crib to another location, i found my wife had been looking out the window [yikes] which is why she saw the end of it.
[BTW: one of them was mortally wounded and managed to get about two blocks before passing]

i've known people who've been shot--the burning sensation of it, the damage it causes. these guys i rather suspected have known people like that too, but for some reason did not take away the appropriate meaning. i used to know a guy named, appropriately, 'stonewall'...a kid threatened to go
and get his gun to shoot him. he, in an unconcerned way, responded, " i don't how you're going to do
that...i'm between you and the door" and essentially issued a beat down without much concern for
recourse or charges pressed. acculturation like this used to strike me as odd. now it's still odd to me,
but not unexpected.

one of my mates growing up used to operate with this kind of blinders on naive-yet-debauched behavior.
i've written about him a long time ago. two events woke him up to the real world around him, where empathy and consequence have more meaning. his belly was opened up by a machete [by his nutball brother]; and he did some time for 'gay-bashing' [which is when i gave up on him]--in prison he learned that he was as tough as his ability to stay awake. after that he became a member of the 'nation of islam'. still a nutter, but now walking the religious-ish role and staying away from violence inflicted and incurred.

my dad used to point out that those who burn cars in riots, don't probably have cars themselves. so part
of that acculturation--if his assumption is correct [certainly sounds correct] would be that in the absence
of things to lose, one is illequiped to understand the tremendous psychological and physical harm they
are capable of representing to others. i've known several terrible bullies that only stopped their conveniently unsympathetic behavior after getting severe beat downs--one getting facial reconstructive
surgery after, and the other simply having to live with a face that essentially looked a bit like a basketball for a long time. the rebel kid from the article not only was permitted to rationalize justice,
but after losing all that is there to give his life meaning, probably showed signs of indirect self distruction.
some people don't slit their wrists, they slit other peoples'.