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 PACING in FIGHTS: time lags and wind-ups [cultivating fire]

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PostSubject: PACING in FIGHTS: time lags and wind-ups [cultivating fire]   Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:32 pm

I really love this subject. Always harping on what Richie might call
a 'Selfish' showing. A one sided assault with no room for return exchange,
and with no end in sight.

Another part of this that I guess I think about but haven't, as yet, verbalized
[like many things BTW] is the TIME LAG--or really 'THE ABSENSE OF TIME LAG'.
i have dwelled obsessively, however, on how to cultivate explosiveness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnpWypc7B3A

I think Kelly McCann mentioned--really loosely paraphrasing, "taking the moral high ground,
so that when someone decides you are the platform to showcase their ill-intentions,
you don't need the inner voice--the metaphorical moral car-breaks within. it's a wind
up". i get the feeling it's something i've seen more in bouncers, and less in security guards.

as an aside///[disclaimors and historical influences]
[i did security for over 12 years and we were the biggest bunch of insecure guys practically
all the way switched on, not nurturing that internal fire at all--just sort of keeping it at almost
full brightness.
i base my conclusions off of the 50 odd guys i've either known or
worked with and i sort of think we were nurturing a dickhead personality so as to increase the perception of risk. i think --another thread perhaps, it was because of the tremendous authority we were not given as an option to use. one that invariably resulted in collosal cock-ups where backpedaling our collective ways back to a safe environment really meant a struggle between two people [mostly], the results of which would not be backed up in court by the contractors who really just wanted a tax right-off of polyester uniforms [no bitterness there, hmmm scratch ]...but with the ambiguity of having officer-appearing lackies policing their collective areas. security in the U.S. is another word for authority-less drop out in polyester. maybe not so much in reality but in public perception. the semi circle patches on the shoulder mean--in short, " i can't really do shit". the full
circles mean, "i'm a cop until you leave the front door". all spell laughter on the part of deviants. and overcompensation on the part of the guards. there are odd fights here and there, but i almost think it
is more a factor of egos butting heads than keeping the property/people of the contractor safe. if you're
thinking of a carreer in security, think of something else, it is a set up for a character slam.

conversely, i've noticed with some bouncers a tendency to be nice as cake icing...until
they meet the shit-head of the evening. then the balance tips [black and white] to the other
extreme facet of their performance-personality. this is a leap, because while i've sucked down
alot of liquer all over the globe, i'm still basing my broad theories after about several dozen
people i've never been on the fist end of but have engaged in conversation [half drunk]. apparently the frequency of engagement, and the authority bestowed in them by the club owners, afford them a more
ideal outer-garment personality.


back to the subject///two themes

i like the focus of the youtube clip being a wind-up of staying on the moral highground road, ready to turn quickly with almost no discernable time lag. this is food for thought. who knows, this could have been in pschology; i sort of dwell on what Richie has quoted Geoff Thompson as having
said,
"having God on your side".

for me, i'm always watching myself from the outside to see what feeds my fire. what cultivates a peaceful side, and what contributes to unselfconscious explosiveness. i've based it off of the above mentioned 'cake-icing' personality--who's in all fairness probably holding a wee bit back, to the guided explosion that is finally allowing the release s/he's been carrying inside. some go and release this pressure valve to their psychiatrists, others see an opportunity to nurse an energy and allow it's release in a productive area.

whilst i do see the NLP wisdom of cultivating confidence and believing in verbally standing up for oneself in other non-combative walks of life [previously themed threads], i also notice that through my slow learning curve of smiles and nods amidst disrespectful but unthreatening regular folk, a pressure builds that on occasion shows signs of release in areas that serve other agendas. a tight rope walk. a naughty sort of alchemy of a pugilistic kind.

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PostSubject: Re: PACING in FIGHTS: time lags and wind-ups [cultivating fire]   Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:37 am

Hi Russell,
So I thought I had a comment about this because what you wrote seems to relate to my question about doing the appropriate thing at the appropriate time, i.e. No threat = no fight. Real threat = fight (with no time lag) ... and then I read your post again and think I may have got the wrong end of the stick ....
Is this what you are talking about?
Perhaps you are approaching this question from one end of the spectrum ('on switch' with hair trigger) and I from the other (on switch corroded by lack of use)?
Could you expand a little more ...?

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PostSubject: Re: PACING in FIGHTS: time lags and wind-ups [cultivating fire]   Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:02 pm

hiya maija,
i can tell you what i meant, and that it works for me (ha) lately. i've no end in
sight and sometimes go through philosophical tweeks from time to time.

an aside///
i really, without rebuttle (sp?), get the sound idea of redirecting someone's attention,
doing the pschiatrists thing of taking someone's attention elsewhere--"lets see what
the bar'man has and i'll buy you a drink" [richie-esque psychology]. i've sort of in-
advertantly done it growing up--with humor, even going so far as appearing un-moved
and acting like i was waltzing with a guy who moments before appeared to want to
clean my clock. all those incredible thought pattern interrupts based on some instinct and
perhaps an idea that it will be awful so why not try something stupid first, add a degree of
non-challent for mind-fook, and at very least it will serve for that. tactil. all that. i've done
everything from pretending i was distracted and mad at someone else, to feigning [with
success] a phantom gun [in more serious situations where i don't feel they have a real
one]. i always think the biggest muscle i have is my head--it helps that my head is so literally
fooking enormous. a great puss-pumpkin size head Laughing .

all those REALLY sound and advisible things, i assume to be when there is some degree
of wiggle room by way imcomplete commitment on the part of another person. for whatever
reason [witnesses; confidence levels; whatever reason]

i think what i was thinking about when i wrote this bit above, was at times when there is no room
for rehearsals and preperations and skits either because one is too uncertain about how quickly things are going to go wrong or because of those jitters of now getting a real gage for 'if things are going a certain way'.

you're (uhm--just improvising now) walking home and
someone's calling out to you "oi.." but the tone is not ambiguous. or is walking toward you
in a way that is equally unambiguous [appearing]. what i have referred to as a lithmus test. now i think
it behooves a person to move away from the grey mode and [especially if far removed from
all that nonsense] allow oneself to get out of denial [on one end] and into the proper explosive
mode [on the other]. this is where i think [and this is what i've been teaching] the fence
really becomes important giving a verbal if there's time...'back off, leave me alone'...then [and i
got this straight from Richie's DVD on the fence] the 'tentacle' shove for no more ambiguity as
well as range...then explode. that's strategic for one's own preperation readying. the attacker has the
advantage of knowing where he stands already. this raises one's own meter to full--in those two
gestures [aside: not that the shove is even necessary if someone's running at you affraid ]. i just
now that most interractions i've come across attempt to play on confidence first, probably showing
the lack of confidence that the person has as they prepare but want to make sure they have the right
target.

lately, with my bunch of uneasy guys that hide lack of confidence behind a few muscles and a bit
of bravado [something i understand from experience], i saw a need to [in the early phases of their training] stay away from the grey--which is more possible with practical confidenc [confidence from experience].

having said all that [long winded fart that i am]. i have lately, been thinking about all the times
i've 'picked my battles' and with my originally 'passive' personality have had moments of explosiveness. in my case my passiveness comes not as much from physical fear but spending the
first 15 years of my life being the family mediator who couldn't afford to be emotional. because it
sort of went against my inner core, it became redirected. moody outbursts when someone played
too much and put their hands on me. that was a domain i wasn't going to allow being 'bitched' in.
i carried bitterness and overcompensated my responses. so this influences how i train and teach i suppose, and must be re-evaluated every so often [for growth and good measure].

4 personality types:
passive--takes too much shit [in my case, when there's no physical threat]
passive aggressive--takes shit and indirectly turns it back through
for example///not training hard if not wanting to come to class
or 'gossiping as a rebuttle but not sticking up for oneself directly'
aggressive--in short, once passive and bullied but now a bully
assertive--immediately letting people now where they stand, politely but unappologetically


with all that out of the way. i watched the above mentioned cake-icing personality with a discerning eye.
i'd watch and think, "no fooking way you're that nice...it's gotta be a counter balance of some sort, either for sanity sake for where you have to take things from time to time...or as a way to cultivate that
temper from which you can rely".

i thought it was a healthier (maybe not healthy) way to channel something negative into something positive--especially when perhaps the anger doesn't just flow naturally like some subterranian river of hate. i wanted my guys to have something that took them away from grey [in their early phases] such that they could be explosive, instead of pensive and pausing. a kind of clark kent act--that due to it's un-naturalness, could serve them as they attempt to conjure inner fire [lacking in most of them, but not all of them]. i had to base it off of attributes of my own personality and hope it in some way spoke to human nature.

cultivate the fire, add a fence for your own sake of seperating the ambiguity, then even if the guy fooking flinches, those fence like verbals, etc...can be internally added as a kind of mind pump script that says, "i'm now a character that i've created in a script that gives one unambiguous warning to make things less uncertain as to the terms...the second attibute of my character is that i don't wait, i become that crazy selfish fighter that doesn't stop until screams onlookers shout [joking now in case it doesn't translate] for mercy. joking but not totally joking. in fairness, i think all but a very few are in the 'lack of use' place, and need the build ups to ready them. rather than one dogmatic way to fire someone up. i try many angles whenever they arise, and hope to brainwash those that have come to me hoping techniques will save them. because i simplify techniques and targets, all i have left is the brainwashing part--coming from drills and this sort of thing. i can almost entirely say that my whole game for them
is having at least one memorable fence like verbal/and shove--and then it's all drills for explosiveness after that [almost entirely open handed cross/jabs under the chin and spinning the chin]...a few extras if
the person isn't being totally driven back, a few ways to protect oneself, but really not much more than
that. it's the core for me. that, and head controls, several low kicks--and a few drills for how to get away from a group. nothing more. i think more is sometimes less.

i have yet to really have effective drills for weapons--still working this out. but i've seen evidence that the stuff i've been teaching is having a successful affect on them. one of my guys, unfortunately, turned these strategies on a dishonest police officer trying to get handy with him. mixed success that minimally involved not being messed with again, getting some inner mental scars that didn't last but did affect his training, but because of the dishonesty of the officer--no charges [big surprise].

i don't know mate. i think what i'm trying to say is that i try and teach strategies for getting around what i sense most people have, a fear of that initial engagement that seems to dictate the confidence level for the rest of the fight. having moral high-ground, having a fire that lies not far beneath the surface. but then later when experience affords exhalation, perhaps becoming more like your teacher philosophically, with practical experiences to allow for this coolness.

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PostSubject: Re: PACING in FIGHTS: time lags and wind-ups [cultivating fire]   Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:45 am

Cool Russell, very interesting - good post ! Cool
Funnily enough I was chatting with a friend and fellow Eskrima practitioner who spent his youth in the punk rock scene in Detroit .... oh yeah, he has some pretty hairy stories as you might have guessed, but what we were discussing the other day was that in his experience, both his own and friends he's talked with about this, most of the time, you don't believe it'd going to really happen ... until you really get hit! This is not from someone who worked security, just someone who lived in a shite neighbourhood and went out at night.
It's obviously quite difficult to read people, perhaps especially when it's not part of your job, or don't deal with it on a regular basis.
OTOH, another friend, fondly known as 'The Sleeping Pill' to his friends, is more often than not inclined to pre pre-emption .... ' well he twitched didn't he?' ....! No debate there ... just the one about necessity ...
The training ideas for your group are interesting because it seems you are trying to take much of the wondering 'what if?' out of the equation - which is what causes the time lag of contemplation, but leaves in a degree of 'moral certitude'. Tricky, but for sure one of the things I struggle with.

The whole Clark Kent thing ...wow ...never thought of extra niceness to the point of absurdity being a catalyst for explosivity Shocked Razz .... it's kinda twisted Russell, I think i like it afro

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PostSubject: Re: PACING in FIGHTS: time lags and wind-ups [cultivating fire]   Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:55 am

Hey Richie,
Thought I'd ask ... do you remember when you started being able to read peoples' intents better? I'm guessing through doing security you had ample opportunity to practice? No doubt there is a learning curve of error, either one way (hitting early) or the other (getting hit)! but I'm guessing it does get easier.
I know there are certain signals, body angles, eye movements and such, but I'm also wondering about changes in cadence and rhythm of movement or speech etc .....
Thanks.

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PostSubject: Re: PACING in FIGHTS: time lags and wind-ups [cultivating fire]   Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:00 am

BLINK
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PostSubject: Re: PACING in FIGHTS: time lags and wind-ups [cultivating fire]   Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:04 pm

Hi Guys

just happy to quietly watch this debate play out, in its essence its a pretty cutting edge question- just be careful not to overthink it

interesting question Maija and an even more interesting answer from the Roadkill- I was only thinking last night in the gym about the Macolm Gladwell "Blink" concept - its EXPERIENCE that is the key- if you got no experience then you arent "qualified" to make effective snap/blink judgements- the software just literally isnt there

to answer the question subjectively, I do remember a learning curve whereby the more experienced scousers just had noticeably more savvy- they grew up on the streets we worked on- where as I, an outsider to Liverpool being from the mainly rural Wirral area just couldnt pick up the signals they got

a few years later I could get them signals faster than most lads, but the difference is I deliberately put my mind to developing their seeming psychic ability and was probably even a bit hypervigilant and paranoid in the end-

now the question should be do I know of a short cut to exposing yourself to years of risky situations... I dont think so

BUT

then again, why nerdify this? its only human communication, so if you interact with the public all day long in any field you will have greater social intelligence once you have that down its just a case of learning the specific code sets and pre fight rituals of the environment you are in

the same S.O.P.s would probably apply regardless of what region of the world you work a club in, what ethnicity you are dealing with etc but the specifics will of course alter
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PostSubject: Re: PACING in FIGHTS: time lags and wind-ups [cultivating fire]   Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:57 pm

Thanks for the reply Richie.
I finally got around to finding a copy of Geoff Thompson's book 'The Fence' - yes, it's taken me this long to buy and read the thing!
Anyway as y'all I'm sure know, most of the book is about this time of decision on both sides, that this thread seems to about, and recommends a default approach (the fence) to decide when/if, followed by what to do.
I guess how you teach someone else to do it is the real question here ....
Like you said Richie, experience seems to be the only way to get better at it, though you also said just observing people in a non-fight environment can be a good start.


What I am personally fascinated by (and I'm going to try not to intellectualize here!) is how the sword dueling I learned might help with this?
I suspect that the reason that my teacher concentrated so much on the sword FIRST, was that if both players are armed, you have to spend more time in this 'when/if' area whether you are attacking or defending (yes, I know they are the same thing in the end), at least if you value your 'life', as it were, and like the idea of not getting cut yourself. (The glorious double 'death' is easy to achieve!)
The dynamics change when both parties are armed - this generally means that you have to deceive, lie, bait, draw, freeze, intimidate, your opponent to create enough time to cut and get out clean, and of course each individual is going to fall for different ploys depending on their personality.
This flow practice is not fighting (which is over very fast), but I am thinking that he was onto something in spending time playing in this arena because it makes you observe your opponent and definitely improves awareness of the opponent's intent ...
The more I flow and spar with different people the better I am getting in reading intent, and at creating reaction in others ... at least with a sword!
Sonny said that the arc of learning starts with learning how to 'read' people, and as time goes on, learning how to 'write' them.

I don't think you can play this so easily empty hand, because there is not so much at stake when you close .... but I wonder if the skills learned with a sword might help with this 'when/if' question in other situations ....?

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PostSubject: Re: PACING in FIGHTS: time lags and wind-ups [cultivating fire]   Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:13 pm

Quote :
The more I flow and spar with different people the better I am getting in reading intent, and at creating reaction in others ... at least with a sword!

if you get a job doing security at a local nightclub you would find the same thing... the more you verbally flow and psychologically spar with the drunk zombies... Smile
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PostSubject: Re: PACING in FIGHTS: time lags and wind-ups [cultivating fire]   Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:04 pm

...aah, it's the Art of Conversation Laughing tongue Exclamation
What is it Musashi says? - "Know the ways of men", right?

Richie, in your experience do you think there are a finite number of 'types', you deal with? Is it useful to generalize people into types or is it counter productive?
I'm thinking of what I have observed in people but I don't know if it translates into self protection ...

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PostSubject: Re: PACING in FIGHTS: time lags and wind-ups [cultivating fire]   Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:23 am

Art of Conversation as it applies to Sword Play- tongue fencing? no wait... geek

there is in magick a lot of material on words and swords, in the tarot the swords are the suit of the air, of thoughts manifesting as words- pens and swords, words as weapons... Musashi was a good swordsman and obviously a shit hot writer, he scribbled a book in a cave in Japan centuries ago that is still a best seller...

Quote :
Richie, in your experience do you think there are a finite number of 'types', you deal with? Is it useful to generalize people into types or is it counter productive?

No its not useful to try and generalise people into types either in self protection or therapy.

I could argue that there are no types, but lets just say I dont find "personality types" a useful model of human behaviour.
Its stagnant, its laborious, it invites you to go inside your head in a dangerous situation when you need to be outside of it, its enjoyable mental masturbation that gives you a false sense of authority (beware this dangerous seduction inherent in all psychology -above all else dont head wank) !!! (at least not in public)


Trust yourself, stay in the moment, outside your head, focussed on reality as it unfolds, your unconscious will sort out the details and communicate to you via your instinct, trust your instinct... I sound like yoda... reach out, use the force... in your instincts trust will you....mmmm....


ps there isnt a single school of therapy Ive looked at that doesnt try and label people into "types" in some way, even NLP has the whole kinaesthetic, auditory, visual thing- it is in my opinion total bullshit and probably the least useful model of human behaviour in NLP... along with eye accessing cues... and mirroring to buld rapport... and the whole "think of a time when you felt X" language pattern to create states... and "t.o.t.e.s".... and....


just remember:

Quote :
"nothing is real, everything is permissible"

hassan i sabbah

Quote :
All statements are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense.

principia discordia

Cool
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PostSubject: Re: PACING in FIGHTS: time lags and wind-ups [cultivating fire]   Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:52 pm

Richie,
you had me at

-above all else dont head wank) !!!
lol!

then KO'd me at


Quote:
All statements are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense.
scratch

brain needs rest...must...find...special...drinky...10-4..r
burp drunken
Sleep

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