an addiction--rather than a loss?

...i don't want to spend too long on this. i think there must be a way to--by way of analogy, close the gap.

some people are addicted to liquid courage (alcohol) because they can finally be around the opposite sex with no inhibitions. or the same sex. or both sexes. don't want to assume. the draw backs--there are always draw backs, are knowing why you are drinking, knowing what it is an invitation for (and don't tell me you don't): waking up with headaches; sheep; low blood sugar; embarassment...did i leave out anything?

i think it is more of a draw than the drug/depressant itself. confidence and no inhibitions. no skills either. which is why drunks are always getting the shit knocked out of them. my big loss in a fight came when my faculties were about the level of hybernating shrew floating in piss--or Foster's, one of the two.

i think the fear to anger fighting--without the proper Richie style channeling can have the same dark side. fight rather than go through the long process of rebuilding courage all over again. i think, personally, i have moments when i am attatched to performing well in a bad situation that it is entirely possible that i wont explore my options--coming from a lifelong foundation of 'running equal cowardice'. what made me think of this was Hunter's road rage thread. my first thought was something along the lines of (in my inner manly world where i carry an electric sword that dispenses coco cola when not shedding demon blood), "get back in the fucking car, or you'll be needing that crow bar" or some other such mindless fantasy of angry responses--to include visuals of a bloke sporting what passes as a tail from a distance but looks more and more like a crow bar the closer one gets as they approach.

i think it's entirely possible that some people fight first, before exploring options, because they've spent too long looking to muster that stuff...and are more concerned with not letting go, then taking it to the next level. the anchor, the supra state. i don't know. i bet there are more that feel this way, because it feels like human nature to me. tension builds (to draw from something recent), some passes really closes to me in a store, and i feel the spring load of a jap slap ready to go. i don't throw it obviously, but i'm switched on. i don't think this is the problem. the problem is that i'm not working thought pattern interrupts, and other such worthwhile de-escalation stuff.

anyway. off to work for me. i used to do the interrupts alot when i was a professional security guard. no i think i have to retrieve them in the interests of exploring more of my options.

Interesting.

If I got this straight. They no longer look for options, because they've invested so much into enabling themselves mentally to do that rather than being nervous and fearful that they don't want to go back to anything that feels less in control. And long term, not just in-fight dynamics, right?

It feels good to be bad(assed). It feels bad to be scared. No surprise what people choose. I've been in the situation of feeling very confident about being able to beat the crap out of people, but feeling completely hopeless about the idea of talking my way out. Whether BS'ing, dominating or otherwise. If I'd gotten in a fight at that time I'm almost certain I'd go straight into fisticuffs rather than risk hurting my ego by going back to something I felt less confident about.

I suppose it's all about what you value isn't it? The guy coming from fear and inability, really wants just to be able to bash people around and feel confident. He values that and it's very connected with the ego. That's the mountain top he's been climbing. He's not going down again... well metaphor's about to overstretch but you get the picture right? The next level is when you spot another mountain top, a little higher. Confidence about violence and fighting and all that is old news. You don't want to run around fighting all the time, you want options. This is where SP really begins.

After the verbal CD's I've given a lot more thought to the social aspects. They're really important. And also, if you learn to talk well and get real confidence, you don't have to wake up with embarrased sheep either. That's always a plus. Well unless you really like sheep that is.

Come to think of it, we should probably be spending at least as much time on verbal and social combat as we do on physical combat. Especially in this day and age where you can hardly slap someone without a high likelyhood of some legal repercussions.

Interesting subject. And it is something I have experienced, but a little different than I think your talking about.

I think that getting somebody who is, lets say a bit timid, to get to the point where they can deal with violence effectively, there has to be a change in them.

I have been pretty timid and shy in the past. And until I was 18 I was pretty much overprotected by my parents. But I set out to learn stuff for myself and also had a good guide at the time. I had trained for years. But when it come to confrontations and fights say back at school, I used to freeze up and not be able to handle it too well.

Now i've got myself to a level where so far I have kept myself safe being in confrontations regularly (due to work) and being able to most of the time stay cool and be able to think and psychologically and physically deal with the situation.

But it did take a change in my to be able to do this, and it wasn't without its 'rockyness' (can't think of a better word)..

Being in situations when I started I would just go quiet and the fear would effect me alot. And working on my mind (alot thanks to Richies material).. it allowed me to deal with the fear better and to act explosively when I need to fight. But caused problems for a while.

I have come to the conclusion that this is something you must go through to learn this.. for a while I wanted fights, I attracted more of it, even a few out of work, and it seemed to be a big thing, then I would talk about it alot, part because I was dealing with things I couldn't before, maybe part ego..

I went through the stage I would encourage it.. sure I would still talk first, but in the back of my head, most of the time I would want them to start. I got alot more aggressive and a few times exploded into anger when I maybe shouldn't of, but I was always able to stop myself from going too far.

Being like this would attract situations and confrontations more I feel (like Richie warns in Psychology of violence).. but after a while it evened out, I got used to it. I am more calm in situations, can be aggressive when I need be, but I have more control either way.

Before when I talked myself out of something, some kind of insecurity would eat at me "I should of dropped him" or whatever, but now I am proud that I could use my communication to stop the fight (as that used to be my weak point)..

But on the other hand, I sometimes don't mind a bit of a fight.. if its going to happen then I enjoy it to tell the truth. I never had this before until changing my mindset and psychology to deal with violence better. Now, i'm curious to know if any of you guys have this same thing. Because the guy who used to mentor me, I talked to him about it, and he always has said that he won't start fights but he enjoys them if they have to happen.. basically if you can't prevent it, you may aswell get into it.

Now I still use other options first, but if I know its useless and it has to happen, then I do get into it.

Its strange, but it confirms what I first typed, to be able to deal with this stuff, there has to be a change in the person, and at first it is rocky and hard to handle, but evens out in the end.

Now the other thing i've been thinking about which I was going to ask Richie..

I am teaching 2 different people at the moment. I have been doing alot on awareness and observation for them (drills, explanations etc.) aswell as the scenario type training and physical stuff.

But I am a bit hesitant to teach them this psychological stuff or work on it with them, because there is consequences of it (as I mentioned earlier in the post), and it would cause a change in them, and are they prepared to handle that? As some people could not handle it, I could because I have worked alot on myself (unrelated to RBSD, basically self-development) but other people it may be too much for them.

Any other teachers here, especially Richie, i'm sure you considered this aswell, did you have hesitation bringing out your psychology of violence material?

My theory is, to deal with this stuff, you have to explore your own darkside and utilyze it, because violence isn't pretty, but the problem is, some people could get lost to it. I had a rocky road with it myself. Now usually when I want to know something I experiment, do drills and stuff, I have certain goals in mind with students and try different methods to see if it is developing what I want to find the best ways.

But with this kind of psychological stuff, its a little risky to play around with like that and I don't want to fuck peoples heads up.

So i'm not sure where to go from here?

-Ben

Also it was mentioned that people feel "feeling fear is bad"..

But it can be addictive, more so the adrenaline. Its kind of bad, but at the same time makes you feel alive, and it can get to the point where you are searching for that high, as with any other addiction. Anyone else know what i'm saying? (Yes i've experienced this too)

I like this forum, I feel we are covering stuff that most people encounter but are afraid to talk about because of worry of not being 'politically correct'..

-Ben

Another great thread started by the crazy kung fu sage

Im not sure I understand the title "an addiction- rather than a loss?"... does this kind of SP training represent and addiction?

if thats the question the answer is yes

this line of questioning gets down to the heart of what this field is REALLY about rather than what we all SAY it is about or would LIKE TO BELIEVE it is about

... and that my friends is tricky because I have to speak truth even if my foot gets shot

"Come to think of it, we should probably be spending at least as much time on verbal and social combat as we do on physical combat. Especially in this day and age where you can hardly slap someone without a high likelyhood of some legal repercussions."

Aye, youve got it- which is why you'll notice Im ducking seminars and personal training

Seminars, classes, dvds and cds all feed into the same cycle- its just "stuff"- its what people want rather than what they need- one can hope (and by "one" I mean me) that SOME few people will take the many hints and clues and cheat codes you leave behind in the matrix of one's work to elevate beyond the mindset that brought them to you in the first place

if someone wanted to be properly trained by me it would have to be an old school live- in process, very invasive, very challenging, very uncomfortable and its NOT what people really want ... though it might be what many need

they want a nice neat solution without any CHANGE on their part

is it therefore dishonest of me to produce material that I know isnt going to "solve the problem" because WE HAVENT EVEN IDENTIFIED THE REAL PROBLEM EXPLICITLY YET???

maybe, but its still good material that could lead some people to where they want to go

the Psychology of Violence course is for getting people out of fear and if I do say so myself its a fucking excellent peice of technology for doing exactly that

but the problem isnt that people feel fear of violence- thats normal and right, the real problem is that everyone who got into martial arts is fundamentally INSECURE... there isnt a martial arts instructor or bodybuilding competitor out there (or in here) who wouldnt benefit from a good bit of counselling- they are all FUCKING mad, seriously, dont trust one us- all us instructors are mad

so... my point...?

"The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the same level of thinking with which we created them."
Albert Einstein

No seminars books dvds or cds or trainings will ever be enough to fill that whole-
the instructors who create the "solutions" are operating at the same level of consciousness that creates the problems (insecurity) in the first place!

Too hippy for you? too fucking bad.

the most important product I have that comes closest to what people need is "Verbal Confrontation CDs" which are pretty much a course in self assertiveness... and it sells the LEAST of all all my products by far

I am a student and I am insecure like you all are, so I know how you feel but I can also tell you the cure for insecurity doesnt lie in learning to how to beat people up.

If you want to stop feeling insecure you will have to open up, let go of some things you really dont want to let go of and be prepared to change which is ALWAYS painful , I dont care what the new age gurus say, real change fucking hurts, thats just life.

So if you havent got it yet- the mindset that keeps you interested in martial arts is a fundamentally sick or "addictive" one- but through the pursuit of that addiction you might learn something of real value...

... how to kick someones head in!


Seriously, there is a lot to be gained here: the capacity to think more clearly, greater awareness, acquisition of knowledge about how the body and mind works etc

The training is a good thing, what brought us here might not of been, we just need to be aware of it and rise up:

"Let us rise up and be thankful, for if we didn't learn a lot today, at least we learned a little, and if we didn't learn a little, at least we didn't get sick, and if we got sick, at least we didn't die; so, let us all be thankful.”

i think it's official mate (Richie), you're my sensei/sifu.

i'll tell you that the title referred to the alcohol-to-girl thingy--analogous with the fear-to-anger theme. but only when in the absense of the stuff you do offer to us as middle ground--namely the thought pattern interrupts and other such valuable de-escalation stuff. the fact that you can, and do, lead us to the psychology was me actually trying to say that's what puts you a cut above.

no shooting of the foot will be necessary

i don't bite the hand that led me out of the thoughtless stage and into the real battle ground within. although i do have the odd fantasy of biting hands, ummmm sorry, i digressed ah yes, where was i. i agree with what i think you were driving at...being aware of it all and keeping feet in both worlds. i wont be giving up on the savagery that took so long to nurture, i just need to keep it on the metaphorical leash that is anchors and supra states. i just noticed that within myself, i see moments when my mental states convey different things to me. in a potential fight i may be several people:
1. fear to anger--tunnel vision, from years of trying to erase the fear-freeze mechanism.
2. impulse control-like absolute spectrum 'anger-management' mind--like when i'm a degree before boiling and my brain is giving messages like, "i know i'd be a dickhead for hook-heal-palming this cunt to the fooking pavement(he's just showing off at the moment), so i'll pray that he escalates and 'swings' for others to see (more rare, but does surface on occasion).
3. midway point where i'm a little rational, drawing from Richie middle ground stuff--my healthiest. a little fear well managed, and properly guided with everything in perspective.

lately i've been 1 & 2 alot and needed a self reflection before i run the risk of responding to a normal unthreatening--but obnoxious, dickhead with something that is escalating--the initial cryptic reference that was referring to some alpha posturing guy who made it a point to get close to my face (but i've been on the earth long enough to have gotten a feeling that he wasn't thinking i was so wound up, and he didn't expect to have to work for his posturing). i actually felt an inward linda-blair-esque snicker, almost like "boom, you lose"...sitting there like,erm, a snake waiting to strike

okay...i hope i got everything down to properly convey. thank you for responding (Richie/RichardB/Ben)...now i must go off and convince flacid late teen that exercise is glorious

trying to motivate late teens is like trying to pump up a lilo with a hole in it mate, good luck

ha ha...something like,
"work it...work it...feel the burn...go team"
then suddenly...
pssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssffffffffffffffffffffffff

"WE LOST ANOTHER ONE!!!"

Mmmm, this is a good thread. It has made my brain go in many directions at the same time, which is hard when you are trying to think of something coherent to write ...

Anyway, 2 things come to mind infront of the others:
I'm not totally convinced by the idea that, Quote: " the real problem is that everyone who got into martial arts is fundamentally INSECURE..", though it is certainly true of many. Perhaps it's also about having unanswered questions?
I have been told that there is a Taoist idea that the physical body is the gateway to experience all the other stuff we deal with. Theory goes that ALL you can be really sure of is, that you have physical sensation and experience of a body, that you experience emotions, and that you experience thinking/mental processing. Everything else is 'out there' and consequently up for debate.
So it follows that you learn first about the physical body because it is the most obvious, then the emotions and the mental, (and there are books and books written about different ways to do this) and once you have knowledge of yourself, only then can you get a grip on the outside world.
Martial arts seem a great place to experience all this, for not only do you learn to use your body, you get to have very direct experiences of a whole range of physical, emotional and mental crap to play with.
Pain, fear, failure, arrogance, power .... whatever.
Not that you NEED to of course, or even think about the fact that this is possible, but those kind of emotions are hard to fake or deny so if you are interested in self development, well, it's all right there if you want it.
Doesn't Zen have a practice where you sit and meditate under a drip or stream of ice cold water? Something like that , anyway, I guess the point is that it's fracking annoying, and uncomfortable, so it's a good place to go practice! Same thing.

2nd thing that struck me was this question about how to generate change, either in yourself or, as a teacher, in others .... so how do you?!!
I suspect we've all had teachers that were way above the norm, who really opened our eyes.. but is there a common thread that ties them together? Or are we all just different?

OK, there's a 3rd thing. I am extremely interested in this idea of verbal and social combat. 'heading things off at the pass' as it were. Breaking the OODA loop of an aggressor to gain advantage or to diffuse a situation.
Now, the Gary Spiers interview made it clear that this is not possible in many situations because some people really just want to fight for no real reason whatsoever, but for those other potential situations it would be a great skill to have .......

Oh man, I remembered the 4th thing .... Quote" .....its NOT what people really want ... though it might be what many need"
Do you think different people need different things, and what is it that they need? ...And can you tell when they have it?

Well, as I suspected this is a rather garbled thought process, but comments would be appreciated none the less. I'll stop now

i wished the matrix was real.. i plugged in my ENGLISH plug in my back head.. and read this page in 2 minutes.. haha

verbal shit is important, but yeah.. streetfightsecrets attrackt people who like to learn survive if it come s physically i think..

but non verbal is also important i think..

greets

Quote :

I'm not totally convinced by the idea that, Quote: " the real problem is that everyone who got into martial arts is fundamentally INSECURE..", though it is certainly true of many. Perhaps it's also about having unanswered questions?

what motivates people to train in how to "protect themselves" or to "fight" if not fear and insecurity? those who get in it for milder reasons, seldom stay the course and seldom develop into instructors, the motivation that drives the obsession must be STRONG and as they say PAIN is a stronger motivator that pleasure- my perception that everyone who got into martial arts being insecure is bound over by a beleif that everyone who lives on the planet earth is insecure...

...so its a double bind

Quote :

2nd thing that struck me was this question about how to generate change, either in yourself or, as a teacher, in others .... so how do you?!!

I know how to do it, not sure I know how to verbailise it- how to generate change? how to change beleifs? i think its something along the lines of challenging or even outright attacking their current view of the world/way of being and makign space for a new one
when given more than one option the unconscious always chooses the best option for you automaticvally and immediately, but it must have a choice of more than one option... beyond that?

Quote :

OK, there's a 3rd thing. I am extremely interested in this idea of verbal and social combat. 'heading things off at the pass' as it were. Breaking the OODA loop of an aggressor to gain advantage or to diffuse a situation.

verbal and social combat= self assertiveness

Quote :

Oh man, I remembered the 4th thing .... Quote" .....its NOT what people really want ... though it might be what many need"
Do you think different people need different things, and what is it that they need? ...And can you tell when they have it?

Yes and No- different people need different amounts of the same fundamental things , these fundamental things always have a conflicting opposite, for example we need:

attention AND privacy

spontanity/danger/excistment AND structure/security

peace AND violence

etc etc

In this context that I was referring to in the martial arts, yes its PAINFULLY frikkin obvious what people need! Usually they flat out just TELL you in one way or another within the first few minutes of speaking to them if you just open up your senses and tune into them... people always tell you EVERYTHING you need to know about them

its so funny people seem to love it and hate it all at once when I do that to them, makes them babble and reveal intimiate details of their lives without thinking thats what the Blank Face Cd is all about by the way, the tuning in, not the babbling...

Quote :

...And can you tell when they have it?

oh god yes! in the same way when a baby is crying and screaming for milk- how do you know when he has what he wants?

...there is a blissful silence!

I find people very very very very very demanding and needy- so when they have "it" there is a pleasant "switching off" of warbling wheeping and whinging, nothing more pleasant than being in the presence of people who are "switched off" from the neediness frequency, very relaxing so it is.
Unfortunately though, its rare as rocking horse shit.

Just to get peopl to STFU and sit still for a bit and LISTEN, flick the SWITCH from "transmit" to "recieve", seriously it would make all the difference in the world.

And in answer to your earlier question is the most direct route to change. : "sit still, shut the flock up and listen for a change"

Thanks Richie,
I agree that just being alive creates a certain amount of insecurity in an of itself!!
I guess insecurity comes from the unpredictability of life and is possibly why so many people living numb, boring lives in front of their TVs, locked inside their homes hoping that nothing challenging ever happens to them, hoping they will never have to 'fail' or experience pain, and that death is just a myth.

At least people that practice martial arts are connected in some way to the outside world. I agree though, that there must be a strong motivation and obviously some kind of obsession - because apparently I have it LOL!

I'm interested in how to generate change, because I DO think that everybody is different, and it makes teaching interesting to find out what the trigger is for a particular person to make them "see".
I think why Sonny was such an exceptional teacher was his ability to read people, which also made him an exceptional fighter. Of course he vetted anyone that came to train with him and filtered out most of the whining, needy, excuse driven idiots who wanted to be spoon fed and never improved. That is why he taught only privately out of his living room, never taught a class and barely ever did seminars.

Here is a quote from a poster on another forum:
"Personal Message (Offline)


Re: Pre-emption and Sucker Punches
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2008, 09:05:46 AM »

In his book, "Dead or Alive:The Choice Is Yours" Geoff Thompson lists abstract question asking as both a deterrent/confuser and as a an action trigger.

As a deterrent/confuser:
This is generally used in the early part of the run-in before the adrenaline has started pumping. "How's your brother/mother these days?" "Is your sister's name Mary?" "Don't you know my cousin, David?". This can be a series of questions wherein your "recognition" of the attacker may buy you time, or plant the seed of doubt in their head (Maybe this guy really does know someone I know)

As an action trigger:
An action trigger would be defined as something that prepares you mentally for your pre-emptive strike while throwing your adversary off guard. It can be a simple question or something abstract that makes no sense at all. As Thompson writes, "A submissive question is also a subliminal indication that you wish to prolong the conversation, whereas shorter sentences, certainly single syllables, send the message that the conversation is coming to an end." (and that fight is about the start)

"I'm sorry I didn't hear you, what did you say?"

"What was the score in the game tonight?"

"Did you see that chicken video?"

I saw a bouncer use the abstract question technique one night with an extremely drunk client. No matter what the drunk would say, the bouncer kept asking things like "What is your favorite color?", "Can you fix a radiator?", "Do pickles give you gas?". It completely disarmed the drunk by keeping him mentally off-balance. So much so that he forgot about the fight he was about to get into, mumble something about "Too confusing..." and wandered off.

Not that a prolonged line of questioning would work in a sucker punch situation, but a single abstract question can buy you some time"

I thought the abstract question idea was very interesting, so "self assertive" yes, but creative also.......

Richie, quote:
"Yes and No- different people need different amounts of the same fundamental things , these fundamental things always have a conflicting opposite, for example we need:

attention AND privacy

spontanity/danger/excistment AND structure/security

peace AND violence

etc etc"

Hmmmm - the yin and the yang then ....

Blank Face CD, huh? That sounds interesting.
Aah ...the' blissful silence' .... unfortunately in my case it is more often than not, gormless incomprehension LOL!

But then again, "He who knows does not say, he who says does not know " - Lao Tzu

"He who knows does not say, he who says does not know " - Lao Tzu

but Lao Tzu said it so does that mean LaoTzu does not know if he who knows does not say...

... all scousers always lie, said the scouse man...

im not so on the easern wisdom anymore, i used to.. but also like tsun zu, and everything else.. we european are good in war and fighting also, or can i say even better? they with their wisdom, and monk facade , fuck all whores if they go to foreign countries.. no again a spupid quote, those who say dont know...? if you go to school and the teacher say nothing, haha, because he know... i wonder how his students learn than? haha.. no its nice fantasy thinking, and ofcourse there is some truth.. but most of the time its for lazy people who dont like to work like everybody else, but make themselves important by saying stupid lies..
And everybody believes it.. because it promiss a better way of living bla bla they end up broke

People have been thinking about the same stuff we have for thousands of years. There is good information to be found from all over the world. I think it is sometimes worth separating the information and knowledge from the practitioners.
I've had some very good teachers who were not very 'balanced' human being, but it took nothing away from their skills.

What's that great Bruce Lee quote from "Enter The Dragon"? ".... don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all the heavenly glory ..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQORnYPqU3A