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beckyj



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PostSubject: psychopaths   Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:42 pm

i was looking on the net today and i was thinking some of the things people diagnosed as psychopaths have done is horrific,how can they have such disregard for other peoples suffering?
it baffles me.i was wondering what causes it?
also do you think it could be applied CONTROLLED to self protection?
just a thought
cheers
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James

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PostSubject: Re: psychopaths   Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:34 pm

The hypothalamus is supposedly the most primitive part of a brain and in this part of the brain is what causes aggression to occur. Iíve spoken to many people about this and it appears to me that psychopaths and people that are able to deal with violence with complete disregard for other people and without thinking effect it may have on their future are only able to use this part of there brain, or are at least heavily influenced by it.

I donít feel like I am portraying this message very well but on one of the video blogs posted by Richie I remember him saying that, although day to day he is a calm intelligent person that would normally not wish to experience violence, when he enters his supra state of aggression, the intelligence is cast aside, as shown by the use of "fucking come on you fucking twat ill fucking rip your head off.. Etc". The point I am trying to get across is that psychopaths and people of that nature only seem able to respond to the one idea of violence; they have no regard for other people.
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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Re: psychopaths   Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:07 pm

it certainly seems we have an uncanny natural ability to "compartmentalise" feelings and behaviours

yes these things can be applied to self protection, thats what the supra states and POV cds are all about it



Quote :
,how can they have such disregard for other peoples suffering?

remember Bex this one fundamental principle of human psychology : people will do anything if they have a good enough reason

I can think of an example from my own life recently: standing in the chippy in a calm happy state, everything is groovy,


then something happens which switches my state so profoundly I literally was motivated to torture and murder within minutes (usually labelled psychopathic behaviour)-

so what happened?

at an external level not much: I flipped open a red top tabloid in the chippy and read an article that outlined injuries inflicted in a current high profile child abuse case in the UK

at an internal level: an emotional shit storm that had me physically shaking and rationalising the worst kinds of violence

so lest we judge to quickly, we all have a demon inside of us, think of the wrost thing any human being has done: you are capable of it to- not saying you would do the same thing just that you are capable
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chulodog

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PostSubject: Re: psychopaths   Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:19 pm

simply pray to the devil, and you like killing instantly.
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RichardB



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PostSubject: Re: psychopaths   Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:21 pm

The hypothalamus is primitive all right, but if psychopathic individuals were limited to the use of that part of the brain they'd be dumber than sheep. (ok, ok, I know a few that fit that description) But to say that the hypothalamus causes aggression is a bit like saying fists cause punching. It's central to the process but there's more to it. The hypothalamus is as I understand it a lot like the guy with all the money in a group. And all the stuff up in the limbic system is competing for influence over how to spend it. Shouting as loud as possible while trying to shut up all the other guys. The hypothalamus passes the loudest signal on and releases appropriate hormones along with the pituitary. Beer and pizza for all the money!

Then there is the matter of neuroplasticity. Basically the brain works a lot like a muscle. Muscles you use grow larger and stronger. Muscles you ignore weaken and become smaller. The different parts of the brain seem to work in a similar fashion. Maybe there is a part in the limbic system that has gotten way more weightlifting than the others and consistently wins the shouting match. A bit of a software infuencing hardware, altering how software works, messing further with the hardware issue.

I.e., the hypothalamus dishes out aggression orders, because the "GRAAARGGH" component of the limbic system shouts loudest, which it does because the guy has gimped frontal lobes and has a low capacity for restraint. Which could be a biological defect, or could it be a result of atrophy? Because he's an asshole who's grown up in a world of shit and copied fucked up behavior patterns? He's insecure and discovers beating the shit out of people makes him feel confident. Fuck if I know how it all works but there's probably a good blend of nature and nurture. As in add a bit of nature to a bit of nurture, stir well, heat to a boil and pour it in a jar and shake it up. (now try telling them apart)

That's on the level of only considering psychopaty in itself. But how much of the "vile, evil, kill it with fire!" associations to that word is simply stuff that most people both consciously and unconsciously reject about themselves. Overexaggerating the difference between themselves (who are entirely good) and the psychopath (who is entirely bad)? "Projecting the shadow" stuff... Psychopathic people are bad all right, but people in general are more similar than they give themselves credit for.

It often seems like psychopathy is regarded as a very special and mysterious thing that is set very much apart from other people. I don't think that's true. I think it's closer to home than most people are comfortable realizing. Look at the fucked up shit that presumably normal people have done throughout history. There's the big things like WW2 and all but look at witchburnings. Or the the festivities in certain places in France way back when, where they'd tie a cat up by the tail and burn it alive in the town square. And have great fun listening to all the screaming and wiggling. Which is well within one DSM criteria for psychopathy. Now, were all those villagers psychopaths? I doubt it... "having good enough reason" is a good way of saying it. Torture someone "to save their soul." etc... Maybe it had a religious or spiritual significance. (would that make a human sacrifice more good or more evil?)

Between the workings of our duct-tape supercomputers and the constantly changing world (psychological, social, technological) I think trying to pin it down and say "THIS is how it is" is a bit presumptious. What could a DSM criteria for psychopathy be back in the dark ages? Everyone tortures animals, not uncommon enough. Maybe pillaging and robbing? Not to mention questioning religion.


From my own tinkering with psychopathic thinking I got pretty far into it. It was actually before finding this place. I modeled the "disregard for the wishes and feelings of others" part very much. Making them meaningless to me at as many levels as possible. For some reason I focused on "seeing things as they are" as opposed to reading into things, projecting. Seeing only the image presented in front of me. Maybe that blocked off empathic thinking to a degree. I certainly saw the world coldly and cooly. It seems like I stopped feeling much emotion too. For some reason I've always liked the "alien anthropologist" thought experiment. Trying to see the world as something not human. questioning things and behaviors people take as granted. That may have been a factor too here. Trying to create an inhuman thought process. So there was a big separation from them and me.

Now that's just cold and dispassionate. The actual evil began with the sadistic bloodthirst. Always identifying with the bad guy in movies. Cheering them on, critisizing their stupid mistakes. Taking great pleasure from watching people in pain and horrible injuries. There is a lot of fucked videos on the internet. I'd sit there and chuckle in amusement, sometimes laugh out loud like it was a real thigh slapper when someone got hospitalized or killed somehow. I really did find it genuinely amusing. Sometimes I'd sit there in a laughing fit and laugh myself breathless because it looked so ridiculous, and not despite their pain but because of their pain. There was something about contempt for weakness in there. I became more callous and brutal. It felt real good too. It felt like raw power. Not giving a fuck. "The world is mine. I'll take what I want." When some idiot goes into that eye duel stuff, and every ounce of me is about a thought away from starting on him. There's something about integrity of intention there that gets into the nonverbals, and they'd pick up on that. "uh, sorry wrong number." I'd nearly giggle like a schoolgirl when an opportunity to brutalize came by. It's a feeling of elation that I've had a hard time coming by elsewhere. Let's just say that it got way worse from there and I backed off on it when I realized how fucked up my thinking had become. (I'm normally the kind of guy who sometimes throw a spider out through the window instead of smashing it)

Seeing how easy it was to bend my personality that far into that kind of thinking I have to question how extraordinary and special psychopaths really are. The issue might be a lot simpler than it's made out to be. I guess a lot of them fall into it because it simply feels good, especially if they live shitty lives. A way of compensating for things maybe. And there may be biological predispositions to certain kinds of thinking. Stuff that runs in families basically. But I think it is largely software. But who really knows without proper scientifc research... It can definitely be used though. But I advocate control. Not anything you won't stand by at your normal level of compassion. But that too should be adjusted to reality, IMO of course. All things with moderation...

For me it becomes a kind of modified, temporary psychopathy. Righteous psychopathy maybe. Psychopathy within the boundaries of your moral principles. Hell, maybe the word psychopathy is unnecessary here. It's like calling the flight or flight response something like modified, temporary paranoia or rage disorder or something. Gobbledygook if you ask me. Abnormal situations may call for abnormal behavior, making it normal within it's context. ...Now I'm just rambling.

Laughing
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ttruscott



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PostSubject: Re: psychopaths   Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:45 pm

For those who like a deeper study, look at:

Inside the Criminal Mind: by Stanton Samenow.

My book review is at http://defendyourself101.ca/reviews

Ted
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maija
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PostSubject: Re: psychopaths   Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:07 am

@RichardB -
Sounds like you have lived an interesting life, especially inside your brain! Very Happy
I agree that we are all capable of WAY more intense actions than we could ever imagine in our peaceful, mundane existences. The urge to survive is very strong, and all you need to do is add a bit of war or mayhem and we'll all be at it.
Isn't there a saying that 'civilization' is only 3 meals away from anarchy? Take food, or access to food away for a day or so, and it's a free for all.
It seems that the question again is, how do you switch the 'survival' switch on when necessary and then off, when not?
How do you act in an appropriate way at the appropriate time, getting on your full berzerker when called for, then turning it off to smell the roses the rest of the time .....?
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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Re: psychopaths   Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:26 pm

maija wrote:
It seems that the question again is, how do you switch the 'survival' switch on when necessary and then off, when not?
How do you act in an appropriate way at the appropriate time, getting on your full berzerker when called for, then turning it off to smell the roses the rest of the time .....?

I think the Samurai spent the most time and effort answering that question formally. For all the power of our much loved bear skin wearing shield biting Nordic homies, I dont think they concerned themselves much with writing witty haiku about cherry blossoms after bathing in the blood of their foe!


Chulodogo

the guy who tortured the little lad to death was apparently a satanist- I wont repeat what he did to that child but if you read a description it would make you very angry and upset
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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Re: psychopaths   Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:40 pm

Quote :
That's on the level of only considering psychopaty in itself. But how much of the "vile, evil, kill it with fire!" associations to that word is simply stuff that most people both consciously and unconsciously reject about themselves. Overexaggerating the difference between themselves (who are entirely good) and the psychopath (who is entirely bad)? "Projecting the shadow" stuff... Psychopathic people are bad all right, but people in general are more similar than they give themselves credit for.

RichB he say betterer than anyone

there but for the grace of god go we all I reckon

here is a humdinger of a question guaranteed to ruin a dinner party:

what should be done with "evil"?

how would you punish a man that trains his dog to bite a 15 month old child by biting the child first?

who would slice off the toddlers finger tips with a stanley knife to get easier access to his little finger nails with the pliers?

The more I read and think about it the more Im tempted to let him experience as close a recreation of the childs suffering as possible over a similar time scale.

In a more responsible frame of mind, I think just taking him round the back and shooting him would be more responsible.

Interesting though that my first response is vengeance in kind and my second sort of shuns any responsibility of the criminal- "he is dead we dont have to think about it"
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chulodog

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PostSubject: Re: psychopaths   Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:22 pm

yeah , richie, i dont like to know.. i cant handle it.. really a woman gave me 500 euro if i beat a guy up who raped her 16 year old daughter. i say keep your money, it will take care of.
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chulodog

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PostSubject: Re: psychopaths   Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:25 pm

yeah richie, also if you check the satanic church it has a lot of similarys with nlp i think, thats why i have my doubts, and pray some times to jezus, or god.. if it work? i dont know, but i dont wanna think i am god, or like faust, kick him of his throne..
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maija
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PostSubject: Re: psychopaths   Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Richie said, Quote:
"I think the Samurai spent the most time and effort answering that question formally. For all the power of our much loved bear skin wearing shield biting Nordic homies, I dont think they concerned themselves much with writing witty haiku about cherry blossoms after bathing in the blood of their foe!"

It's very interesting that the Samurai practiced transferring aggression and fighting into art/creativity - painting, writing, sculpting .... though they also shared with our Norse kin a love for drinking heavily, gambling and falling over!
Actually, they were really nor that good at turning 'off', which becomes obvious if you look at how many defences there are for unexpected attacks, at tea, on the street, in the privvy etc that appear in their sword systems! But it's nice that they thought about it .....

So, as an aside, talking of bathing in the blood of your foe and all, have you heard of "Wotan's Spring"? Apparently a Roman chronicler wrote about it during the era the Romans were fighting the Germanic tribes. He saw it used on many occasions so came to believe it was a taught technique. So next time you get a hand cut off by a Gladius, make sure to shove your bleeding stump into your opponents face to blind them - Wotan's Spring!


Richie, Quote:
"Interesting though that my first response is vengeance in kind and my second sort of shuns any responsibility of the criminal- "he is dead we dont have to think about it"

Well, an eye for an eye is a very ancient form of justice and seems fair to me. Problem is that someone has to perform the 'justice', so where does that leave them?
There's enough people on the planet. Seems like 'evil' people like that don't need to be taking up space. Problem is, who decides who is guilty? Then you've got to trust those that do the deciding ...... aaaargh ......
Perhaps that's why they just put them in prison. Here, at least, I don't think he'd survive long in the general prison population.
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Lonewolf333



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PostSubject: Re: psychopaths   Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:55 pm

Some people are like bears who get a taste for human blood, once they get it, more then likely they will taste human blood again. "The past is a good indicator of the future sometimes..." It does not mean they possess a quality that makes them "inhuman" but it just means they are a danger to others and should be dealt with like trash. Just taken out and if possible you try not to get garbage juice on your loafers. But who decides? You are right, thats a window for further corruption and violence right there. I just know if someone raped/killed one of my family members, I'd be the one deciding the fate of that person...
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