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 What do you think about this as a training method?

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MrDan



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PostSubject: What do you think about this as a training method?   Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:35 pm

A recent thread had some information and ideas about Baguazhang - just wondered what some of you think about this as a training method and, as ever, how useful it's applications into a street situation could be realised. I know there are many different terms for this in MA from sticky hand, push hands, sensitive hands etc but this looks dynamic and is based on the concept of continual movement. Clip means nothing to me so feel free to say it's shite if that's what you think but always interesting to hear what you reckon...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4KzldV6nHZ4&feature=related

I'm coming from the point of view that in any physical contact you are always going to get 'contact' such as this particularly with the arms as they come up to naturally defend (flinch reflex) or to strike - therefore having this in your arsenal is good news as you become one slippery customer and combined with strikes and chin na type stuff this would be good. Very Happy Whaddya think?
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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think about this as a training method?   Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:20 pm

any form of combative human contact can only be of help

chi sau, contact flow drill, san sau, wing chun stick hands, tai chi rolling hands, ba gua whichever... if it develops your kinaesthetic sensitivity and other combative attributes its a good thing- plus you can train like this for hours with no risk of injury... good way to draw beginners in and build them up to harder controlled "sparring"/ combative pressure drills

i could of just said: yeah i tink its ded gud like pirat
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MrDan



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PostSubject: Re: What do you think about this as a training method?   Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:31 am

Ha, cheers Richie - yeah much prefer the fuller answer rather than the 'ded gud like' bit Laughing That's my thoughts exactly - particularly when starting off in the early days of training it's great because of the human contact, something that is not usual for many people and a great way to learn how to feel for your opponents moves and intentions.
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maija
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think about this as a training method?   Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:58 pm

Sticky hands practices are good. In our system the 'San Shou' starts fixed step and pulling/pushing off balance. It then escalates to slapping and shoving to moving and throwing.
It does not train entries obviously, but is a great middle step towards sparring.
This is a short clip of my teacher talking about sticky hands:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogCIL0pJ1CE
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MrDan



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PostSubject: Re: What do you think about this as a training method?   Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:39 pm

Nice clip that Maija, had a scout round for some others on there too and very useful. I've been training with this for the past few years with a few different people and it has been by far the easiest and most effective way to get the full body movement concept across. By this I mean that it is close to useless if someone is just doing this, going through the motions and only using arm strength (just waving the arms around), muscular strength as opposed to decent body movement -I've always been taught that the body moves (the core) and the arms (and legs) follow. Hence the importance of the circle training in Bagua to build up the core strenght and twistiness/flexibility.

Good work out when done for some time too! Very Happy
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thugsage
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think about this as a training method?   Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:56 pm

i remember training with a guy all through high school. it was the best stuff i had by way of formalized safe-ish training. it was all because of the constant slightly rough contact and movement of flesh on flesh. we'd spar/fight other people in a wacky unprofessional and unsupervised way. that was slightly catabolic--for lack of a better expression, no learning, just going for it (although that's a kind of learning). but when it was just me and him, we'd do a kind of rough sparring that excluded the face--doing anything that worked, to include absolutely attacking limbs. i just thought we were both knuckleheads acting out the stuff we saw in the streets and movies. but when the occasional non-life-threatening late teen pressure test arose, we were invariably more prepared for the constant pain barrier being raised, and constant contact being explored.

with that.

i think what i saw in the clip would be nice. personally i might get put off by the parameters of the style if they didn't flow (for me). i've been there before. i can't say otherwise, but this would be where i'd guess it was all
about the individual and how receptive the style was to his/her sensabilities.
like Richie has said, to REALLY losely paraphrase, "the kata is good to practice for a base, but molds are then made to be broken" or tweeked accordingly.

i finally have a foundation i like. it took me 20 years of injuries and honest checkins for my limitations to put together. that's the beauty of the simpler styles that prove affective in a way that at least keeps up what others are claiming works, judging them by way of how well they work with pathetic stiff short limbed fookers like myself.

i like looking at the instructors too. if the motherfucker is 7 feet tall and has hands that could girdle a canadian redpine...i'm not confident what he teaches will work for me. if i see some squat burly little angry fooker doing something simple that seems to work...'show me the way, sensei/sifu/master'. What a Face
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maija
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think about this as a training method?   Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:51 pm

@MrDan - core strength, exactly. Unfortunately many practitioners of the Internals are indeed just 'waving their arms around', and sadly even if they are connected and integrated within themselves, they cannot connect that to an opponent. Seems like many schools are missing the fighting strategies and real application, so if you find a teacher who knows all that ( which it seems you have) - keep hold of them, they are rare indeed !!

@Russell Sage - Quote "if the motherfucker is 7 feet tall and has hands that could girdle a canadian redpine...i'm not confident what he teaches will work for me...."
That's why I trained so much with Sonny. He weighed in about 110lbs so I figured, if it works for him, perhaps I could use it too!! Dude had horribly pointy elbows and knees too ......
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