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 Adrenaline in Psychopathology or other personality disorders

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Lonewolf333



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PostSubject: Adrenaline in Psychopathology or other personality disorders   Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:28 am

Does anyone know anything on this topic?

Do psychopaths feel less adrenaline as other personality types? I know what I have read it says they have under aroused nervous systems.

Do people with less adrenaline responses make more dangerous people to others?
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RichardB



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PostSubject: Re: Adrenaline in Psychopathology or other personality disorders   Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:15 pm

Interesting question. Personally I'd not say less adrenaline would necessarily make people less dangerous. It might allow people to be more cool under pressure, but most of the trouble caused by people seems to happen when they go limbic on you, because of adrenaline and angry thinking. Take road rage and so on. It never ceases to amaze me the fucked up and completely idiotic shit people manage to do when they go limbic. They literally go retarded so normal intelligent reasoning telling them what a bad idead it is doesen't get through. They just proceed to kill their ex or beat their boss or any moronic thing right out in an open street with tons of witnesses and etc... You get the idea.

Psychopaths having less adrenaline as it relates to fighting, if so, may simply be because they are more familliar with fighting. What it seems to do for them is allowing them to keep their wits about them better than someone who is getting heavy adrenaline effects. I've heard for instance about some inmate beating some other inmate savagely, but making sure he didn't hit his head on the wall as he went down, because that would lead to more severe charges. In an opportunistic attack. That takes a certain degree of coolness to do. But I think it has more to do with simply being used to fighting. It will probably only make people more dangerous as much as keeping their wits about them is worth in that context.

As for myself I'd be more worried about the idiot who is going start shooting someone because he believes they stole his beer and so on.
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Lonewolf333



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PostSubject: Re: Adrenaline in Psychopathology or other personality disorders   Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:29 am

Yeah, I read that inmate incident in the book "Meditations On Violence".

Interesting read that.

I always wondered though about this psychopath thing. Does lower adrenaline responses have a correlation with predatory violence? Is violence a thing in which almost anyone can become mentally used to? Can adrenaline responses be lowered over time in an individual exposed to violence? Or does PTSD have a lot to do with it?
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RichardB



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PostSubject: Re: Adrenaline in Psychopathology or other personality disorders   Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:39 am

It is a great book. One of if not the best I've read on the subject. And I've got a shitload of books. I heard he was working on another one, so that's interesting. I think anyone in here would find the book interesting reading. Anyway, I think almost everyone can be desensitized to almost anything. I don't know how it relates to PTSD though. That is one thing I've read up on too little.

Psychopaths probably have as much adrenaline as others, but thinking can raise or dampen adrenaline secretion a lot. I've been in situations I was almost certain to die with almost no adrenaline, at least hardly noticable heart rate increase. Mostly attributable to accepting death as inevitable and so on. Point is, there was no real fear. What thinking patterns does a psychopath perform relating to violence? If anything I think they have a general trend of not truly grasping the concept of consequences. It's more like an animal way of thinking. But that's because of poorly functioning frontal lobes right? I was a fucking gremlin before my frontal lobes myelinated, now I would get shocked by the thought of doing some of the crap I used to do.
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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Re: Adrenaline in Psychopathology or other personality disorders   Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:33 am

RichardB

"Personally I'd not say less adrenaline would necessarily make people less dangerous"...?

Ive even tried saying it out loud mate and i still dont get it Razz

"going limbic" thats good, may I steal it? you didnt get it from another instructor did you? if I nick it they may start frothing at the mouth

this "meditations on violence" book sounds interesting- would be a good name for the sfs blog, or even this forum section...


Lonewolf333 wrote:
Yeah, I read that inmate incident in the book "Meditations On Violence".

Interesting read that.

I always wondered though about this psychopath thing. Does lower adrenaline responses have a correlation with predatory violence? Is violence a thing in which almost anyone can become mentally used to? Can adrenaline responses be lowered over time in an individual exposed to violence? Or does PTSD have a lot to do with it?

In the Lecter series of books, the author Thomas Harris makes a big point of how little Lecter's body reacts to extreme violence- hebites off a nurses face breaking their jaw whilst hooked to a hrm and his bps doesnt go over 75 or something equally silly in the story

personally I think an element of this idea of a "psychopath" belongs exactly there, in books and films

its not even all that functional to talk about "psycopathic" behaviour- its more meaningful to say narcisstic or anti social or sadistic or whatever-

being a "psycho" is an easy mass media idea...

like describing things as being "on acid" as in the sentence "the programme is great its like reeves and mortimer on acid"- it has a cultivated socially constructed observable in discourse analysis (ha! social constructionism)

Defining psychopaths and sociopaths is tricky, try looking up a definition that psychiatrists can agree on... even just psychopathic behaviour- what is it specifically?
"Psychopath" and "Sociopath" are often interchangeable in studies- Its a term that has only a very vague meaning.

I just had a quick look up on google and lo and behold

Quote :
The terms sociopath or psychopath often bring to mind images of sadistically violent individuals such as Ted Bundy or the fictional character of Dr. Hannibal "The Cannibal" Lecter in the book and movie The Silence of the Lambs. But I believe the defining characteristic traits of sociopaths actually cover a much broader spectrum of individuals than most of us would ever imagine. The sociopath is that truly self-absorbed individual with no conscience or feeling for others and for whom social rules have no meaning. I believe that most all of us know or have come in contact with sociopathic individuals without even knowing it.



http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath_2.htm


so in answering your question mate we have to clear that one up first, the commonly held view of a "psychopath" doesnt have much real meaning

Quote :
I always wondered though about this psychopath thing. Does lower adrenaline responses have a correlation with predatory violence?

where did you read it can you remember, the only place Ive seen it is in books- how would they even check that?

if I could change your wording a bit and rephrase the question-

so its not: do "PSYCHOPATHS" have/experience lower adrenal responses?

but rather: do people who through their illness hunger for conflict so as to inflict sadistic punishment on others and thereby become accustomed to violence whilst experiencing it through a different "paradigm" as "normal people" experience less adrenal response?

(you may have to say that sentence out loud Wink too!)

then the answer is probably yes

(*normal people being those who do NOT through their mental illness hunger for conflict and violence)

yes because of two factors:

1. the frame or paradigm-
social violence is a situation they want and desire and seek to create, totally different frame to you or I or most normal folk, we dont go out looking for fights

2. acclimitisation through exposure to violence over time-
we all got an adrenal response when we first got in a car to learn to drive, now we bomb around at much greater speeds doing much more dangerous things but feeling LESS adrenaline

in the same way the "nut job" (medical term) has gotten used to violence so may experience less adrenaline- but then if he wasnt experiencing any where would the "buzz" be that motivates him to do it??

which means we also have to deal with this issue of using the word "adrenaline" when strictly speaking that isnt what we mean- the feeling of fear or buzz of excitement isnt just adrenaline its a whole bio chemical cocktail served up by the hypothalamus for your consumptive pleasure

in answer to your other excellent questions

"Is violence a thing in which almost anyone can become mentally used to?" yes definitely, you can get used to a level of violence, if you go up a level again though you will initially be shocked (again) and then eventually reacclimitise to the new level or type of violence - Humans are very adaptable

" Can adrenaline responses be lowered over time in an individual exposed to violence? Or does PTSD have a lot to do with it?"
yes adrenal responses can and will be lowered over time- not sure what you mean about the PTSD though Very Happy
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RichardB



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PostSubject: Re: Adrenaline in Psychopathology or other personality disorders   Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:16 pm

Richard Grannon wrote:
RichardB

"Personally I'd not say less adrenaline would necessarily make people less dangerous"...?

Ive even tried saying it out loud mate and i still dont get it Razz

"going limbic" thats good, may I steal it? you didnt get it from another instructor did you? if I nick it they may start frothing at the mouth

this "meditations on violence" book sounds interesting- would be a good name for the sfs blog, or even this forum section...

Hey, didn't sleep tonight/last night or however that all works. such are the dangers of skipping sleep to correct my time sense thingy. I'll take no responsibility for not making sense, or making sense. I'm pretty sure I meant to say less adrenaline/more dangerous though.

Going limbic, I took from the book "How to spot a liar" by Gregory Hartley and Maryann Karinch. All the books they write have been interesting so far. It's good body language stuff with a flavor of interrogation all over it. The term also summarized succintly a bunch of vague observations I had made of odd behavior under pressure.

I think I mentioned meditations on violence way back in some thread in here, but the passing comment may have been lost among a bunch of other posts. This is the guy's blog BTW http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/
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Lonewolf333



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PostSubject: Re: Adrenaline in Psychopathology or other personality disorders   Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:12 pm

Great Richard G. Thanks for that huge informative response.

Yeah, as for the term psychopath or sociopath. I don't believe such a thing truly exists in concrete form. I just think it's easy to say sometimes...(ops I'm responsible for being a labeler! Someone stab me in the neck with a pen) Sociopath or psychopath to me just describes a cluster of behaviours that involve manipulation, violence and subversiveness. I was just interested in the whole adrenaline aspect and you totally gave me a good viewpoint on it Richie.

Some studys on "psychopathology" almost give you the impression that "psychopaths"(quotations for Richie) feel nothing at all, not even adrenaline(kind of sounds like a cool thing to have sometimes haha). Others say they have the same adrenaline responses. It made me confused, so I had to do some reading and asking.

Your post is totally true about being acclimitized to violence. I've never been shot at, or stabbed brutally or seen someone be beheaded in person(on the internet, I've seen it haha I was tramuatized) but I've been in pretty violent situations and have had violence brought upon me plenty a time and it bothers me less nowadays then it did when I was younger.

As a kid, I used to get that almost shit your pants adrenaline, when people would whop me. haha Nowadays I only get the butterfly feeling when I know a person is looking for a fight and won't just walk away at a bar or on the street. I get the butterfly feeling too lately sometimes for no reason but nonetheless the adrenaline response is way turned down in comparison to the past. I'm the kind of type that doesn't look for fight anyways, I got nothing to prove unless I'm totally provoked or my woman is disrespected(indignant fist of justice eh Richie!).

"I always wondered though about this psychopath thing. Does lower adrenaline responses have a correlation with predatory violence?"

I think this was a Marc MacYoung infulenced question. I been reading him for days and don't quote me on it but I'm pretty sure he has said something about people with lower adrenaline responses being worse enemys because they wait, prey and attack usually pre-planned and you don't really see it coming. They don't get bothered too much either by it because they have low emotional capabilites and don't feel very anxious about totally murdering someone. But like you have said, this kind of predator MUST feel something to do a pre-planned attack.

Then it was said people with high adrenaline reactions that are violent, usually have a very "crime of passion" style attack. They act in the moment and the violence can be seen coming unlike with a predator style act. They get red faced, puffed up, like a bull full of adrenaline. They usually regret their violent actions and feel a lot of anxiety about it.
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markh



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PostSubject: Re: Adrenaline in Psychopathology or other personality disorders   Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:48 pm

Hey all,

Remember that adrenaline is kind of like nitrous oxide for an automobile, gives high performance for a short period of time. It is merely a chemical fuel for the body. Yes it comes as a result of a stress inducing incident, but adrenaline can be utilized to improve performance rather than creating a negative experience. Mostly adrenaline can be utilized based on your mental preperation and state.

It seems the more prepared,trained, and mentally conditioned the subject the more he/she will be able to control its use in a positive fashion. The common term for this training in the states is "stress inoculation training" most of the research is coming out of the military and law enforcement communities. This is one of the things that has drawn me to Richard's use of NLP in self-defense.

When I was younger (teens through early twenties) I tended to handle combat more in the classic "berserker" style much like Richard's suggestion of modeling aggresive behavior. This worked fine in a self defense situation, but I realized when I enetered the law enforcement field that this method would do nothing but get me fired, sued, or both so I endevered to become more of the "cold and calculating" type fighter. It took me many years on my own, but I have been by the younger guys that train with me that I can be "scary"calm during a fight. What I am trying to do is learn how to get my trainee' officers there much faster than I was able.

ps Rhicard B, a good book on PTSD is "Deadly Force Encounters" by Dr. Alexis Artwohl found at this link:

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Alexis%20Artwohl&page=1


Keep safe and train hard/smart, Mark H
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RichardB



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PostSubject: Re: Adrenaline in Psychopathology or other personality disorders   Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:13 am

Calm seems like an ideal to me, unless it's a total SHTF FUBAR situation, so being able to perform at both of these seems good. Deadly force encouters might be a goor read. I've seem it mentioned a lot in Dave Grossmans books, might give it a read.

I was asking around about psychopaths Vs. adrenaline on another forum and someone provided links to a few articles:

http://www.uchospitals.edu/news/2000/20000113-cortisol.html

Quote :
...Although the mechanism connecting cortisol levels to aggressive behavior is unclear, McBurnett suspects that variation in levels may serve as a marker for abnormalities in the production of various stress hormones that influence the body's response to a challenge or confrontation.

Cortisol is secreted in response to stressful or threatening situations. Low levels may indicate how these young males will respond to potentially stressful situations, suggests McBurnett. "Boys with consistently lower cortisol levels may not be as afraid of retribution," he suggested. "In many aggressive children, the system that responds to the threat of punishment does not react normally. They may not feel stress in the same way and so they don't avoid stressful situations."...


And another one...

http://www.psychological.com/april_01_newsletter.htm

Quote :
...There are physical findings among sociopathic individuals which suggest a biological difference between them and others. They appear to have a weak startle response, low heart rate, low tendency (galvanic skin response) to perspire in stressful situations, and low anticipatory anxiety...they do not worry. This imperviousness to anxiety may explain why they fail to learn, since much of our learning is based upon the need to avoid future anxiety for ourselves and others...

And some more...

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/58786

Quote :
...At the biological level of analysis, clear evidence exists that there are genetic influences, Lahey said, explaining that aggression and violence are at least moderately heritable across all sociocultural groups.

It is likely that genetic influences operate through both gene-environment interactions and gene-environment correlations, Lahey added. In the conference syllabus, Lahey explained that two studies suggested adolescent antisocial behavior is related to childhood adversity and alleles of the gene influencing monoamine oxidase-A (MAO-A) activity in a gene-environment interaction (Caspi et al., 2002; Foley et al., 2004). The role of MAO-A is particularly interesting, he said, because it degrades serotonin and other neurotransmitters.

"Metabolites of serotonin in cerebral spinal fluids have been associated with very large effect sizes to a pattern of violence called impulsive violence and particularly in individuals below the age of 30," he told the panel.

At the level of peripheral psychophysiology, resting heart rate is inversely related to antisocial behavior and predicts future antisocial behavior and violence, according to Lahey.

"Some longitudinal studies [Farrington, 1997] show low resting heart rate in children predicts violence itself," he said. "Dampened autonomic reactivity (sympathetic activation measured by skin conductance) has also been linked to antisocial behavior and violence, although the evidence is less clear."

Cortisol has been shown in several studies to differentiate children with CD from children without CD, Lahey said. But the direction of the difference has been inconsistent, and there is no clear evidence of a link between cortisol levels with violence itself...

Bread crumbs left by people fiddling around with researching prediction and understanding all that stuff, just bread crumbs, right... But they do seem to relate to the questions that are being asked here. People falling into that box we call psychopathis do seem to differ from most people in the way stress, fear, adrenaline and so on affects them.
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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Re: Adrenaline in Psychopathology or other personality disorders   Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:22 am

an awesome thread guys!

now... you can call me a pedantic word fiddling nuisance if you like, but the cunning linguist in me is whinging a bit so allow me to placate him

there is a series of books by a guy called Stephen Erikkson which are sword and sorcery type things, I read two and they were good but dead complicated so I jacked it in but the characters in the book would define fighters/soliders as being "hot" or "cold" fighters - for SP this definition is probably more suitable than bandying around the word "psychopath" with no clear, mutually agreed definition of what that is and more importantly what that is NOT

so first of all are most of us associating the word "psychopathic" or "sociopathic" with a "cold" fighter or "cold" patterns of violent behaviour? because that aint correct, thats a media induced idea- Im not having a go at people who got this idea from the media- where else would you learn about mental disorders? whilst volunteering at your local psych ward?? not likely, but the fact is that the films, books, newpapers have it incorrect

people displaying "sociopathic" patterns of violent behaviour combined with the acute narcissitc traits that will usually lead a professional to sign them off as a "sociopath" can and do "fake" or induce violent "hot" rages because it facillitates the infliction of violence and hightens the fear and trauma to their victims... they deliberately "go psycho" to use the vernacular - doesnt make them any less mentally ill in my opinion- all (truly) criminal behaviour represents mental illness.

and some of them genuinely just lose control... by definition sociopathic patterns of behaviour and thinking are more cold and calculating but not totally cold and calculating- we can get something partly right and then run with the ball too far

RichardB
"People falling into that box we call psychopathis do seem to differ from most people in the way stress, fear, adrenaline and so on affects them."

I like the turn of phrase: "people who we call" and "seem to"


there is a way of describing things called "E-Prime" that was popularised by Robert Anton Wilson and its really helpful in any psychological or philosophical debate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime

If only the medical community could grasp E-Prime when it comes to mental illness and get some NLP training to clear up them cheeky language patterns

common psychaitric error number one:

People are not their behaviours or their disorders

"We tested a group of psychopaths for their cortisone levels in relation to stress"

er, no you didnt, you tested a group of people that you subjectively labelled as DEMONSTRATING BEHAVIOURAL TRAITS ASSOCIATED WITH PSYCHOPATHIC ATTRIBUTES

see how tricky this could get?

I can and do teach "psychopathic" and "sociopathic" modes of thought that will induce a lower cortisone and adrenal release than your average guy when faced with the same stimulus: violence

It doesNT mean you ARE a psychopath, its just a learnt behaviour.







Quote :
And another one...

http://www.psychological.com/april_01_newsletter.htm

Quote:
...There are physical findings among sociopathic individuals which suggest a biological difference between them and others. They appear to have a weak startle response, low heart rate, low tendency (galvanic skin response) to perspire in stressful situations, and low anticipatory anxiety...they do not worry. This imperviousness to anxiety may explain why they fail to learn, since much of our learning is based upon the need to avoid future anxiety for ourselves and others...

Sorry no such thing as a "sociopathic individual" - that suggests they are born and stay different... nope!

they (psychologists suffering from acute "medical procedure envy") consistently fundamentally misunderstand human behaviour by trying to imitate doctors (a disgusting habit) by trying and failing to put people and their mental illness into neat boxes the same way you would a physical illness- it dunt work like that!

any and all mental illness is a learnt , dynamic ongoing process of behaviours and traits... this is like saying

"there are physical findings among people who are in a state of extreme rage that suggest a biological difference between them and others. They appear to frown a lot, have a high heart rate, sweat, swear, go red and grind their teeth whilst muttering and bunching thier fists... they are aggressive. This imperviousness to reason may explain why they fail to calm down and relax..."

if it is not a learnt dynamic ongoing process of behaviours and traits then it is NOT a mental illness it is a physical illness with symptoms that cause behavioural change

the root of the problem would then still be physical

ok im done ranting


oh no im not


Quote :
At the biological level of analysis, clear evidence exists that there are genetic influences, Lahey said, explaining that aggression and violence are at least moderately heritable across all sociocultural groups.

It is likely that genetic influences operate through both gene-environment interactions and gene-environment correlations, Lahey added.

ahem... anyone care to define what a "genetic influence" actually means????

"gene-environment interactions and correlations"- ooopsy!

you mean due to recent research we now finally have to admit that genes respond to the environment????

DAMN IT ALL!

we were so close to getting our neat "medical model" answers- do I still get to keep my white coat? please???
it looks so dashing.... and its the only reason people take me seriously...



lol!

Quote :
At the biological level of analysis, clear evidence exists that there are genetic influences, Lahey said, explaining that aggression and violence are at least moderately heritable across all sociocultural groups.

It is likely that genetic influences operate through both gene-environment interactions and gene-environment correlations, Lahey added.

translation: "our research has shown that humans are instrinsically violent, plus humans also learn to be violent"

thanks very much, I think next time you should give your research grant to me and I'll go to Vegas Very Happy
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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Re: Adrenaline in Psychopathology or other personality disorders   Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:29 am

thanks RichardB for taking the time to ask the question and get the links Very Happy

got any more clay pigeons for me to pop off at?? Razz
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Lonewolf333



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PostSubject: Re: Adrenaline in Psychopathology or other personality disorders   Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:05 am

Richard Grannon is a message board psychopath. haha. Wait, no he is a person exhibiting signs of message board psychopathological behaviours.

Thanks for the cool insight guys! This discussion was very interesting.

"Person displaying socio-pathic like behaviour traits" is way better then "socio-path" plain and simple. I totally agree. Human nature is not black or white like some psychologists, religious doctrines and mass media vultures would like to portray. I totally understand that.

I think I'm going to look at this issue of next time very differently.

I'll respond better here later when I got time. For now, I gotta go to college and study human brains. woo. I think I learn more here actually though. haha
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PostSubject: Re: Adrenaline in Psychopathology or other personality disorders   Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:16 am

Lonewolf333 wrote:
Richard Grannon is a message board psychopath. haha. Wait, no he is a person exhibiting signs of message board psychopathological behaviours.

Richard Grannon is a "meanie" (new medical term) Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Adrenaline in Psychopathology or other personality disorders   Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:27 am

Not about adrenaline, but thought it would fit here.
BBC article: "Bullying tendency wired in brain"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7714072.stm
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PostSubject: Re: Adrenaline in Psychopathology or other personality disorders   Mon Nov 10, 2008 3:25 pm

bullying, psychopaths, sadism its all just wordplay for being a cunt isnt it?

people are like that usually becuase they got treated like that, simple, am I right?
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PostSubject: Re: Adrenaline in Psychopathology or other personality disorders   Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:02 pm

A bit off track... an article referencing a researcher using MRI's to scan for signs of psychopathy.
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PostSubject: Re: Adrenaline in Psychopathology or other personality disorders   Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:52 pm

from the article:

Quote :
psychopathy, the condition of moral emptiness that affects between fifteen to twenty-five per cent of the North American prison population

"a condition of moral emptiness" - now that is grasping at straws Razz


this line is lovely:

Quote :
The word (psychopath) is so loaded with baleful connotations that it tends to empurple any surrounding prose.

oooh, I feel empurpled!


Last edited by Richard Grannon on Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : empurplement)
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PostSubject: Re: Adrenaline in Psychopathology or other personality disorders   Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:08 pm

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