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 Weapon Bearing Limb

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cocktail

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PostSubject: Weapon Bearing Limb   Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:49 pm

So Ive been thinking and studying MANY different approaches to attacking and attacker that is using a weapon of some sorts.....whether it may be an edged weapon, gun, baseball bat or whatever you can think of.......when I went for my Instructor certification at No Lie Blades, the main idea was to control the weapon bearing limb.....this would obviously come after some sort of strike in order to distract and catch that limb and continue on......my thoughts on this can go both ways......controlling that limb can be a MUST in certain situations......but my thoughts on this lately, is that controlling the weapon bearing limb is ideal, you cut down the risk of injury a lot, BUT, if I just attack this BG at full speed and full force to his command center, is there even a need to control that limb DURING the attack?....once you have him to the ground is another story.....now, when I am training in these types of encounters, even if i go right through the person i am still touching that limb in some way shape or form.......doesnt mean i have full control of it at that exact moment but i could easily control it 100% in a split second if needed........i feel that if i was attacking someone with a blade and i am the BG, if i went for a stab to the belly and either missed or the GG got off line and angled up, then fiercely went nuts with headbutts, palm strikes, knees and then takedown, as the attacker, my brain is being overloaded with strikes and i dont think i would even be able to use that blade anymore.......what do you all feel about this type of thing?
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Serge

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PostSubject: Re: Weapon Bearing Limb   Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:41 pm

My thought about it, is that every single system of RBSD or SP in the world try to figure out a kind of answer facing a blade.

And, every single system comes with right answers.

The problem is that, as always, it's absolutely contextual. Sometimes controlling the arm holding the weapon will save your ass, sometimes not.

The hell that it is to combat and protect yourselve from someone willing to hurt you and/or kill you with a blade ( or whatever ) consists mainly to turn the life of the attacker into a pure nightmare, an insolvable equation.
But technically, you will have to adapt in a rushing Ooda loop and find every options to get yourselve with the less injuries as possible, to destroy the son of a bitch and to get the fuck out of there as soon as possible.

Is there a single system that will answer all that, in every possible situation?
Like Kelly Mc Cann says : a 1.000 $ if you can name one.

Attack the attacker. Yes, of course. In that case, destroy him if you can.
And to do so, your mindset will be your main weapon. Not a technique.

As to control an armed limb at 100 % ?
Again, a 1.000 $ if you can do that.

Basically, if a man with a knife wants you dead, you are in a pretty deep ship. It's Katrina wanting you down.


Kit


Skills


Mindset

Your best options will be to aim to cripple his breathing, his vision, his mobility and his nervous central system.
You are absolutely right about that.


Last edited by Serge on Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:17 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Craig



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PostSubject: Re: Weapon Bearing Limb   Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:00 pm

I'll preface this by stating that I have never been attacked by a knife, and so my response is purely hypothetical.
In the training I have done to date, against a guy who is very, very strong, and has been has come out the other side of a fully dedicated stab attack, the risk is just too great. I understand fully your reasoning, and it is true to an extent, but I feel it does not take into account the truly severe damage that can be incurred if stabbed. Personally, I don't feel it warrants the risk. Against my instructor, could I KO? Yes. Would I get a blade in my guts or neck for my trouble? Yes.
Now, granted, there are few out there who are likely to match his attack, which is exactly the reason I am fortunate to train against him, however, assuming that another would likely be weaker in his attack...it would be folly on my part.
There was a vid circulating not too long ago from a security cam in a Russian stairwell. BG brandishes knife, GG rushes in and punches him in the head. BG bends over, GG goes in for another shot, from his bent over position BG sewing machines his knife a couple of times into GG's stomach.
Rich Dimitri over at Senshido advocates one basic jam for the strike coming in. Reasoning correctly that at the time, it is a toss up as to whether you would even identify the weapon. Having said that though, I am yet to achieve it. In training to date, such a jam has left me vulnerable to a straight punch. Then again, my foot work sucks big time. As a result I rely on a crash cover for punches, while jamming the arm for knife.
You make mention of what the attacker would think. Think of it like this, would it also be correct to assume that the majority of their attack will be focus on the use of the knife? I think so. Therefor, if you jam, they are going to direct their energies towards still putting that knife into you, rather than attacking with another part of their body. You though, are already moving to attack at that which, as a result of their mindset, has been left open.
To my thinking, this would be the case a lot of the time. Of course, there are always exceptions. That's why we have the word.
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asfi



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PostSubject: Re: Weapon Bearing Limb   Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:00 am

My concept, or my WAY when facing a knife is:

1) Run aWAY. Far far AWAY..

or

2a) Step aWAY from the blade

and

2b) Don't look aWAY from the blade. Don't even blink.

then,

2c) With the understanding gained from previous usage of blades, intercept the WAY of the blade, disarm the wielder if possible and clobber or pound the guy to smithereens. Or just incapacitate him. Whichever you prefer, but the top priority is surivival. Not safety, but survival.

With my students, I teach that in a knife fight, you will get hurt. Be it a nick or a gash, the probability of getting lacerated is very, very high.

I let them handle training blades and sick them on each other. Most are quite surprised as to how fast a blade can do damage.

It has mostly got to do with the fact that the swivel and pivot points (waist, shoulder, elbow, wrist and fingers) of the knife-wielder, when moved individually and simultaneously have quite an effect on the blade, making it quicker, faster, or more powerful.

What I learned in my family's form of Kuntao Silat is to control/compromise/restrict at least 2 of these pivot points (for reference sake, I'll cite the points. From all directions: wrist + fingers, wrist + elbow, elbow + shoulder, wrist + shoulder, waist + wrist, wrist + elbow + shoulder, fingers + wrist + elbow, fingers + wrist + shoulder. From the back: waist + elbow) then take the person down or out. Quickly. And I really mean quickly. As in all over in 5 seconds, because all you need is 1 second of control (or compromise or restricted movement on the attacker's part) for you to unleash (and keep on unleashing) hell onto the bugger.

Pivot and swivel point control is a key component in what I teach. In a street fight, one may not use the moves much, but having an understanding of it has proved useful for quite a few of my female students (they're youths-at-risk whom I help out at my volunteer centre) and some of my lads. The knowledge (and application of it, don't forget) may help you in a clinch.

Still, I highly recommend number 1.

Cheers!
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thugsage
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PostSubject: Re: Weapon Bearing Limb   Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:48 pm

i would agree--as someone with much less knife experience, with asfi. knife encounters i've been around for always looked more like a stand-off.
even the most hard headed among us just simply took a mental inventory of who--in my youth, with any possibility of follow up being in the absense of said knife. i've had a small stupid looking (nail clipper sized) knife thrown into the soft part of my knee--that's the extent of my knife injuries. but i've had friends who havn't been as lucky--and get the life long infected bubble scar--if they're lucky(two guys), and the belly opened up with it's constituent hospital stay if they weren't(one i knew).
why i like what asfi says is for this reason. playing by a set of ideals that don't include getting cut is a psychological set up for losing momentum and confidence. if you plan on getting 'non-vitally-hurt', your motivation to
incapacitate someone and pulverize them isn't thwarted by lack of drive when the cuts start showing up. can't afford to freeze, or steadily lose confidence, under these conditions. running sounds good to me. but my experiences with knives--limitted personally(on this site it is important to qualify i think), have luckily been in the presence of people not really wanting to use them. and all the friends i've had who were cut, reflect being in the presence of someone with intent. in short, they get in when they want to. if i saw a chance to go for a hesitant person, i'd like to think that i'd try and injure his leg or take the offensive. so far though, i'm working on theory so take it with a grain of salt. i had a gun pulled on me once, i saw red and called his bluff (this was in high school, and if the intent was real i would have been dead--stupid me) which turned out to be a C02-cartridge pellet pistol (which could have shot my eye out if the person had intent).
so where i'm leading with this is, i believe knife practice works for those who still aren't quite sure what they're willing to do. or for those with alot of experience. i know this much--i say this to validate theoretically an aspect of the technique submitted if i understood it, the fingers hold the knife (i think your aim was the arm though). i used to really try and injure non knife wielders arms when i was young. it was a sound technique for me since my skills weren't all there, my arms were too short for out boxing (at times). i'm saying it cuts down on the issue of reach if you can pull it off. i kicked knees--which really upsets people. and floating ribs (but this is getting off topic i think). in short, i like the idea of damaging people's arsenols so they are rendered useless, i have personal experiences that say (non-weapon ones) it really psychs people out and makes them lose confidence.
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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Re: Weapon Bearing Limb   Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:34 am

Asfi

Quote :
Not safety, but survival.


I like this knife zen snippet, may I steal it like a greedy self protection pirate hunting for concepts?

gaaaar! Cool


"pirate knife defence" tm the new DVD from streetfightsecrets.com presents the magic pirate formula that made Britain the finest cutthroat contrabanding pirates to sale the seven seas:

you with knife vs me with flintlock+ cutlass + a gang of salty seadogs clobbering you from the back with cudgels will always = you are shark feed

whenever I think of knives I always think it terms of punishment, how can I punish the fucker for being so cheeky as to try and pull a knife? if I havent got a knife, well there is a word for that: "cheating" Very Happy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g0RLyxP13o



(does your training prepare you for watching a film? lol! )

cool quote, wicked actor, good film

Quote :
"what are you prepared to do?"


Last edited by Richard Grannon on Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:39 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : edited for jittery caffeine inspired blabber)
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