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 Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)

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Benjamin

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PostSubject: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:51 am

Anybody been watching fight quest? Its much better than human weapon, more raw and hardcore.

They are both shows where 2 guys travel around the world and train in different styles for a while and then at the end have a final challenge, like fight a champion fighter of the style.. e.g muay thai champ in the ring.

The other night I watched the krav maga version.

One guy trained with the Israeli army and lived as a soldier I think for about a week, their training was pretty good and hardcore.. this trainer was definately the best of the two.

The other guy went to a woman who is the 'highest ranked krav maga woman in the world' apparently. Now some of their training was good and hardcore.. but there was some things that just didn't add up.

Observing the woman, she was good technically, but I really don't think she could fight for real. Like they did this drill, a good drill, where 10 students hide in the forest and one student has to walk around and gets attacked randomly. First she said "Watch how I do it".. and she did it flawlessly, the students were just flying around everywhere and it looked all pretty and nice technically..

But then you watch the guy from the show do it.. he gets the shit beat out of him. And you realize when the 'trainer' did it they were totally compliant and let her do everything, no real energy, but when he come in they were really trying to hurt him and they did.

This was the same for the whole show.. they let her do whatever, no resistance, and beat the shit out of the guy from the show.

Also the other things that made me lose respect for it.. her and her students had black karate gi's on.. with belts.. now since when did krav maga have this!! And they were practicing high kicks and some were doing jumping spinning kicks in sparring.. hmm.. makes me wonder what happened there..

I like it when instructors get in and actually pressure test things.. and train with the students properly, instead of just stay out of it completely.. like when I did TKD, the 'master' would sit up the front in a suit and rarely even do anything at gradings, I only seen him perform a kata a few times, I haven't seen him do much else unfortunately.

I have seen Richie pressure test things on the knife defense dvd's and its not all technically pretty, but real fighting isn't, but it is effective! And also Rich Dimitri, I have seen him pressure test things.. if anyone knows from his dvd's, he used to do (maybe still does) at seminars.. "come at me and attack me full on with anything and I will defend".. and yes he has been injured a few times, but still keeps going.. also to show the shredder, he picks the biggest guy there and says "take me down as hard and fast as you can"..

Just a few of my thoughts from watching the episode.

The next episode should be good, its a usa one, don't know what style but looks to be some underground streetfighting type style.

Oh and because I am in Australia some of you guys probably have seen all these episodes already because we are behind.

-Ben
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Serge

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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:42 am

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Southpaw



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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:36 am

I think I found a video featured of this series on a Muay Thai site.
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AdamM



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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:47 pm

Benjamin wrote:

Also the other things that made me lose respect for it.. her and her students had black karate gi's on.. with belts.. now since when did krav maga have this!! And they were practicing high kicks and some were doing jumping spinning kicks in sparring.. hmm.. makes me wonder what happened there..

I like it when instructors get in and actually pressure test things.. and train with the students properly, instead of just stay out of it completely.. like when I did TKD, the 'master' would sit up the front in a suit and rarely even do anything at gradings, I only seen him perform a kata a few times, I haven't seen him do much else unfortunately.


we wear black Gis and coloured belts Very Happy


also if we're sparring and a head kick is available, I'll still occassionally throw it. no-one in the group is much of a spinner with the kicks but again, very occassionally I'll feel an opening for a turning back kick of some sort. It depends on your background Ben. I'd been kickboxing / freestyle fighting maybe 9 years before I started focusing on RBSD. I've been training longer than the anacronyms RBSD, UFC and MMA have existed and before anyone had heard of Krav in the west. even after 5 years concentrating on street oriented training, the kickboxing is a motor skill. I'll never change a great deal of my attributes, even if they were honed in a sport combat context.

With regard to the uniform, this is something I discussed with Richie when we first met through his Youtube channel. I was worried that he'd think less of us because we wore a Gi and coloured belt. It was reassuring that he understood why. About 3 years ago we totally dropped the uniform and the belts. We were focused on scenario training, fighting with the lights off, fighting in the toilets and the car park of the place we used at the time, really going for it. After 6 months we'd dropped from 15 - 20 students a session to never more than half a dozen blokes (including me and one other instructor). Now as I've mentioned in other threads we take no profit from instructing. Our reward is purely Karmic. However, the club must be solvent. We have to cover costs, reserve funds for equipment and maybe subsidise things like seminars and social bonding events within the club. You can't do that with a couple of hard core lads scrapping in the gents.

So, we reintroduced a hybrid syllabus that uses kickboxing style core skills, but emphasising all the time that the application of the techniques are not in combat sports. We blend that with a graet deal of material from Richies DVDs and various other sources.

Then there's the gradings. I trained for 10 years with no interest in gradings. I trained 4 nights a week with bigger, stronger guys and learned by taking a pasting. Turns out I'm a bit unusual, because to most people they like to learn in a gradual structured way with regular assessment and rewards. The belts are a handy way of recognising students development and giving them a tangable goal to aim for. Currently, the gradings are based on the Kickboxing / core skills section of our training, because that's what we're qualified to judge. It's a distinct possibility that in the future, when Richie is happy with our delivery of the material that we'll be able to grade people in Beta-8 but for now, we leave that to when Richie visits us for seminars.

My main point is that, while there are lots of shit martial artists teaching shit techniques and awarding grades that don't mean shit, that doesn't mean it's the awarding of grades and the wearing of uniform that is the problem.

And as for the instructor sitting at the front and not getting involved. Not in our club I can assure you. I push myself to failure everysession, as well as allocating time to get a helmet on and letting my students to knock me on my arse
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Benjamin

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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:45 pm

Hi Adam,

Quote :
we wear black Gis and coloured belts Very Happy


also if we're sparring and a head kick is available, I'll still occassionally throw it. no-one in the group is much of a spinner with the kicks but again, very occassionally I'll feel an opening for a turning back kick of some sort. It depends on your background Ben. I'd been kickboxing / freestyle fighting maybe 9 years before I started focusing on RBSD. I've been training longer than the anacronyms RBSD, UFC and MMA have existed and before anyone had heard of Krav in the west. even after 5 years concentrating on street oriented training, the kickboxing is a motor skill. I'll never change a great deal of my attributes, even if they were honed in a sport combat context.

I get what your saying, I will clarify the reason I don't think much of gi's and tradition is bad experiences in the past with taekwondo.. I have a TKD blackbelt but found out the hard way the training wasn't very functional. So I realize you having said what you have that I am generalizing and should not generalize this to everyone who wears gi's, but I still was not too impressed with the instructor on fight quest.

Sammy Franco says, that before you can refute a technique you must be able to first do it.. and I spent years doing high kicks and was quite proficient at them (not really anymore, because I feel no need) and I decided that they were not a efficient tool as I only want to train for function.

So if you find you are able to use high kicks, then thats fine, but I found after getting quite good at them that I do not want or need them so have taken them out of my training and toolbox completely.

Quote :
With regard to the uniform, this is something I discussed with Richie when we first met through his Youtube channel. I was worried that he'd think less of us because we wore a Gi and coloured belt. It was reassuring that he understood why. About 3 years ago we totally dropped the uniform and the belts. We were focused on scenario training, fighting with the lights off, fighting in the toilets and the car park of the place we used at the time, really going for it. After 6 months we'd dropped from 15 - 20 students a session to never more than half a dozen blokes (including me and one other instructor). Now as I've mentioned in other threads we take no profit from instructing. Our reward is purely Karmic. However, the club must be solvent. We have to cover costs, reserve funds for equipment and maybe subsidise things like seminars and social bonding events within the club. You can't do that with a couple of hard core lads scrapping in the gents.

So, we reintroduced a hybrid syllabus that uses kickboxing style core skills, but emphasising all the time that the application of the techniques are not in combat sports. We blend that with a graet deal of material from Richies DVDs and various other sources.

Yeah I know its hard in some places to train like this.. this is why in the small town I am in it is hard to find people to train rbsd, and the taekwondo club has the most business and students who want the easy way, the promise of 'defending yourself' without the pain, sweat and hard training.

Quote :
Then there's the gradings. I trained for 10 years with no interest in gradings. I trained 4 nights a week with bigger, stronger guys and learned by taking a pasting. Turns out I'm a bit unusual, because to most people they like to learn in a gradual structured way with regular assessment and rewards. The belts are a handy way of recognising students development and giving them a tangable goal to aim for. Currently, the gradings are based on the Kickboxing / core skills section of our training, because that's what we're qualified to judge. It's a distinct possibility that in the future, when Richie is happy with our delivery of the material that we'll be able to grade people in Beta-8 but for now, we leave that to when Richie visits us for seminars.

My main point is that, while there are lots of shit martial artists teaching shit techniques and awarding grades that don't mean shit, that doesn't mean it's the awarding of grades and the wearing of uniform that is the problem.

When I quit TKD and started training somewhere else, I said all along I didn't care and didn't even plan to grade, I would actually just go along to the gradings for more training and tell them I didn't want to grade, but they always just ended up grading me. But yeah alot of people feel strongly about earning the next belt, which I did in the past, but certain experiences made me not care about belts anymore and just want performance over any rank.. and I got that functional performance from training with a guy with zero 'recognized' qualifications in martial arts (a friend I met at karate 6 years ago)

Quote :
And as for the instructor sitting at the front and not getting involved. Not in our club I can assure you. I push myself to failure everysession, as well as allocating time to get a helmet on and letting my students to knock me on my arse

I really respect that. In taekwondo my instructors rarely joined in. But in the second style I did (a freestlye mix of karate, judo, jujutsu) the instructors were always mixing it up with the students and really earnt my respect. Unfortunately that class was a hardcore class and wasn't able to be sustained due to lack of students.. so now there is nothing around I want to train in officially, so backyard training when I can.

So I like it that you get in and mix it with the students Smile

Thanks for pointing out my big generalization and for getting me to think Adam.

Anyway i'm off to bed..

-Ben
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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:17 pm

If I was going to run a club, which I never will, I would have gradings, a syllabus and a uniform. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with these things. It works for ALL military units ALL over the world, so there must be something to it. Very Happy

The problem comes when these thing mask a lack of skill or allow a practitoner to wear shoes he no longer really fills due to a slump in recent training. Nothing is ever perfect nor do we expect it to be.

I would have no interest in just training a group of lads in hard core "scrapping in the bogs" its just too much for me and it would all go weird.

Having a nice mixed class with a good friendly atmosphere like you've got Adam allows for positive personal development whilst developing some potentially combatively useful skills and attributes. A lofty enough goal for a local club that exceeds the achievements of most martial arts schools. Its not like you've been asked to train a specialised military unit in "ninja silent killing" techniques over an intensive 2 month course or anything.

Having KickBoxing or any sport combat as a base is a good thing I think, keeps you grounded, reduces the hysteria.
Bob Spour mainly teaches Muay Thai and only does the SP/combatives stuff occassionally. My job is the production of "gouge the eye/bash the skull" information products but personally I like to just train at home. I wouldnt myself attend a regular gouge- eye- bash- skull class even if one were available here.

I love my work, but have no desire to immmerse myself in the subject.
Takamatsu Sensei told Hatsumi Sensei to enjoy the martial arts but not let them become his master, or words to that effect. Good advice I think. Persepctive is required in this field as people all to quickly lose sight of why they started this training in the first place and the boundaries between reality and fantasy blur dangerously and it seems, to some, become undistinguishable.

Someobody who was a bit Zen once said something about the value of just being normal.
It could of been Hatsumi Sensei. He also warned about getting lost in the drive for attainment through martial art like Miyamoto Musashi did, pointing out that for all his accomplishments Musashi died alone and unmarried, living in a cave and in his last days relying on the charitable nature of local folk who were not family. Shame that.
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AdamM



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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:29 pm

Richard Grannon wrote:


The problem comes when these thing mask a lack of skill or allow a practitoner to wear shoes he no longer really fills due to a slump in recent training. Nothing is ever perfect nor do we expect it to be.


this is an interesting point. we train in a partitioned section of a large hall. we train 8.15 - 10pm, in the section we use from 7-8 there's a ju-jitsu / kobudo class and in the section next to us from 7-8.30 there's a Lau Gar Kung fu / kickboxing class. I often turn up a bit early and spend some time watching the absolute shite both are teaching. I mean seriously, picture the worst martial arts classes you can. Now I know that most, if not all my students could walk in to the Lau Gar class next door and beat the black belts in a square go. The Kobudo guys are nice fellas but could even put up a fight. My senior students (Blue and Brown belts) could easily leave us and be a black belt in one of these systems in very little time indeed, or in several others I've seen train in our town. I often thank them for sticking with us when, if it was the black belt that was important to them, they could get it elsewhere easily.

Personally, there's no chance of me being complacent and not being worth the black belt I wear. Our club motto translates roughly as "Everyone's a teacher, but me" or more literally "I take from all things my teachings" In the past (in my clubs previous incarnation) I've taught sport combat systems I didn't believe in under senior instructors I didn't respect. I've spend most of my time watching lines of students punching or kicking into the air and improving not one bit, while my training suffered because I wasn't working. I corrected all that about 5 years ago and will never go back to it. I got my original instructor on board, we broke away from the system I was working under, developed our own syllabus (which is under constant scrutiny and redevelopment) and got my own training back on track, along with the training of my students, who I'm grateful stayed with me when we moved away from the internation association we were with.

I was thinking about this earlier. There are fasions in Martial arts, like in all fields. In the past it's been Shotokan, TKD, JKD, Wing Tsun/Kali cross training, Wada Ryu/kickboxing cross training, MMA, and most recently it's Krav. Systems that suddeny shoot from a few dozen clubs worldwide to hundreds of thousands, then even millions of students. With each system, as it grows, the number of poor practitioners grows exponentially. There'll only ever be one club doing our syllabus, because we have nothing to gain fromit growing any further (numerically that is)
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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:15 pm

Richard Grannon wrote:
Someobody who was a bit Zen once said something about the value of just being normal.
It could of been Hatsumi Sensei. He also warned about getting lost in the drive for attainment through martial art like Miyamoto Musashi did, pointing out that for all his accomplishments Musashi died alone and unmarried, living in a cave and in his last days relying on the charitable nature of local folk who were not family. Shame that.

I like that idea, this reflects very well the training I have been doing for the last few years after meeting a like minded soul who was happy to pass on knowledge and work with me through a few issues/imbalances I had at the time - confidence issues mainly. During all this time he was the first to point out the need for balance insofar as training should be a part of your life and note your total life - similar to that 'orrible phrase in business circles, the 'work/life' balance really and to keep in mind that you shouldn't become a slave to martial arts or self defence training. Do it for what you need it for - for want of a better phrase. Subsequent to this I have found some great courses/classes to be involved in but the dedication required and expected for these is beyond me in terms of time away from home, family etc. I would doubtless get a huge kick from attending these courses and being able to glean knowledge from the teachers but I just don't want to be that person. It has to be a balance. Unmarried, alone and in a cave, although some days this sounds bloody perfect Razz is not the path for me.

From the limited experience I have had with gradings, uniforms and all the rigmarole that could be seen to go with it, it;s not something I hanker for but that doesn't mean I think it doesn't have it's place. I am passing onmy knowledge and ideas from my teacher onto 3 guys I am training ad-hoc and I think for a couple of them they really need this kind of structure to be able to see how they are progressing, how they are doing and to see how far they have come. Fair point. I can see that but the reason I'm not going to get into anything like that is because it would suddenly stop being fun for me and I don;t necessarily think it would be helpful for them. I may be wrong. Maybe I'll ask them and see what they think! Maybe moreso when you are starting out people need this kind of ranking/grading to be able to recognise betterment and an improvement. I remember it was frustrating as hell for me at the start because I'd get weeks/months on end where I thought I'd hit a rut or stopped learning, then I realised that mini-breakthroughs come all the time without rhyme of reason. That 'Oh Yeah' moment when something really sinks in is a great feeling and I personally don't want a different coloured belt to show to people so they know that something has clicked. In fact, I don;t want anything that signifies I know anything because hide my training away from everyone I know because from experience it's much easier when friends and family don't know about my training, less expectation that way and much less potential hassle.

It's horses for course though innit, gotta respect that Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:03 am

There was a karate dojo near where I live that started offering Krav Maga a few years ago. I thought it would be great and i'd learn some useful stuff. I'd watched the videos and thought it seemed practical.

However, the Krav instructors were the same instructors who taught the Sport Karate classes. Not necessarily a bad thing. Until they started adding sport karate into the Krav training. I remember one gun disarm they were trying to teach us. Most of the Krav stuff is pretty direct, but this gun disarm they were showing us was damn complicated and relied on a lot of very precise moves. All I kept thinking is "What in God's name is that. That is going to get you killed!!!"

As time went on, it seemed like more and more sport karate kept creeping into the class. Eventually, i decided I'd had enough. I figured that if I was ever going to learn krav maga, I'd have to do it somewhere else.
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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:59 am

Can anyone tell me where I can get a definitive syllabus of Krav Maga please? I'd like to know exactly what it is, what it isnt and how it is distinct from other styles.

the definition of KM seems to grow looser year by year and I get emails about it all the time, some from instructors telling me they've integrated my material into their Krav class... ? scratch

is that how Krav Maga works?

What is Krav Maga - I dont need a copy and paste of the history and philiosopy thanks, I want to know what defines the syllabus and style from a technical perspective.

If anyone can help I'd be very grateful
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Danite



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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:32 am

One thing I know, is that their are a number of conflicting "lineages" all claiming to teach the "true Krav maga".It doesnt seem that their is one official type or course standards.
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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:55 am

Richie,
i had a krav maga book once that talked about techniques for range--meaning close in would
constitute and elbow, etc...then there's an arm range, a leg range. it also talked about mixing
it up so a person should be inundated. sort of leg-right'arm-left elbow. that's how i interpreted
it. they also appeared to support 'sticking' to an opponent...not shy to incorporate a rock to
improve on the fist that got hold of it.

after that, my assumptions were sort of that there might be high line, low line, whatever is fastest
and most affective...but i've since seen off line high kicks, etc...

there's a krav place in dc---here's the website:

http://www.kravmagadc.com/www/index.php?p=home

it's internationally connected...what i noticed about the teachers locally is that they had folks with
backgrounds in:
boxing
BJJ
hard styles [tkd/karate]
etc...
but they also qualified people as krav maga instructors.

it does indeed sound like their adding as they go. hagganah sounded more intriguing to me [as far as local schools were concerned], but their correspondance included emails like:
"what are you afraid of...being in the best shape of your life"

and other such stuff. it's always been a money thing for me. but i'll say that while i'm sure they taught a good class, the media pitch was lacking.
i'll let you know if my budget improves: i'm tortured to live right behind a boxing gym, and down the street from a krav maga place--two actually. i want to go to them all. maybe i'll do a 'free-class' and let you know. kind of cheesy if you know you're not really going to stay but now my impetus would be to find the answers to several questions of my own, and yours.


IN THEIR WORDS--FROM THE SITE

"What is Krav Maga?

Krav Maga is the self-defense and fighting system of the Israeli Defense Forces. Based on instinctive movements that are quickly learned and easily remembered, Krav Maga is a simple, effective system that emphasizes rapid responses, practical techniques that work for all types and sizes, and realistic training scenarios.

Students learn to deal with almost any violent or threatening situation through the use of hand-to-hand combatives, improvised weapons, dirty fighting or simply knowing when to escape danger by running away. It's combat for a modern world - a system that's heavy on the martial and light on the art.

We offer complete stand-up and groundfighting self-defense instruction that will train both your body and mind to deal with any threatening situation.





and if you haven't lost interest yet, the internation krav maga federation defines it thus

"Definition - What is Krav-Maga?

A practical and tactical system which teaches how to prevent, deal and overcome all kinds of violence and attacks. KM prepares the trainees in the subjects of self-defense, self protection, fighting and combat skills, as well as skills to defend others, all in unique and comprehensive teachings and way. Krav-Maga was developed in Israel, under realistic demands and conditions. Founded and formed by Imi Lichtenfeld (Sde-Or) and continues to advance and be modified by Eyal Yanilov, assisted by the top instructors of IKMF.


* * *

Krav-Maga is a horizontal system with a unique and logical approach. It is easy to learn and retain, performed naturally and intuitively, and practically be use under stressful conditions. An essential part of KM is its teaching process, methodology and ways of training.

Krav-Maga includes the subjects of:
Prevention, avoidance, escape and evasion.


Dealing with throws and falls to all directions and angles.


Attacks and counterattacks, performed to all targets, distances, ranges, heights, angles, directions and in all rhythms. Executed from all positions and postures. Use of all sorts of common objects for defensive purposes.


Defending all unarmed attacks: punches, strikes and kicks. Releases from all sorts of grabs and holds. Defending all armed attacks and threats of knife and sharp objects; of sticks bars and other blunt objects; of all kind of firearms.


Dealing with the above attacks when sent from all possible directions and places; When are performed by a single or multiple attackers; When occur in all possible places, positions and postures. Including in confined or open areas; in an ally, staircase, car; On all types of grounds; In water; When free or in limited space of movement; While standing, on the move, sitting down, laying down on the back, side or facing down.


Physical and mental control and disarm.


KM prepares the trainees to function in all circumstances and scenarios, in all combat and fighting environments, according to their needs, risks they are facing and job descriptions. KM enables and brings technical, tactical, physical and mental growth and improvements.


Krav-Maga contains special approaches, tactics, techniques, subjects, drills and training methods for the different sectors: Civilians of all ages, men and women, young and old; Law-enforcement officers; Military personnel and units; Correction service officers and wardens; Security officers; As well as: Close protection officers; Undercover agents; Antiterrorists groups; Air-marshals; Special and commando units.

Eyal Yanilov
Netanya 2004



To contact the IKMF directly Click here


International Krav-Maga Federation 1996-2005
No part of this website may be reproduced or copied without written permission from the IKMF.



IN OTHER WORDS---RBSD lol! BUT WITH MORE WEAPONS STUFF IRECKON

ALOT OF STATIONARY GUN TECHNIQUES THOUGH, AND KNIFE, AS SHOWN MANY A TIME ON THE WEB...PERHAPS THERE ARE THE STATIC DRILLS ONCE ON THE INSIDE? scratch

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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:34 am

Quote :
Krav-Maga is a horizontal system with a unique and logical approach.

whats a "horzintal" system, how does it differ from a vertical one?

how is the approach unique?

my only honest answer it would seem right now to the question "what do you think of Krav Maga?" is "I dont know what the hell it is."

System:

Quote :
1. A group of interacting, interrelated, or interdependent elements forming a complex whole.
2. A functionally related group of elements, especially:
a. The human body regarded as a functional physiological unit.
b. An organism as a whole, especially with regard to its vital processes or functions.
c. A group of physiologically or anatomically complementary organs or parts: the nervous system; the skeletal system.
d. A group of interacting mechanical or electrical components.
e. A network of structures and channels, as for communication, travel, or distribution.
f. A network of related computer software, hardware, and data transmission devices.
3. An organized set of interrelated ideas or principles.
4. A social, economic, or political organizational form.
5. A naturally occurring group of objects or phenomena: the solar system.
6. A set of objects or phenomena grouped together for classification or analysis.
7. A condition of harmonious, orderly interaction.
8. An organized and coordinated method; a procedure. See Synonyms at method.
9. The prevailing social order; the establishment. Used with the: You can't beat the system.

I think in a martial arts context number 8 is the one we want...

Quote :
8. An organized and coordinated method; a procedure

OK, Im goin to start really looking into this one, can Krav Maga claim to be an organized and cooridnated method?

That means there would be congruence between different schools, yet give it 20 minutes on youtube and you will see all manner of techniques under the Krav Maga banner

at the moment I would add to the "I dont honestly know what KM is" that I also "find it hard to take it seriously as a unique, logical, coordinated method" Razz

Aikido is a system, Judo is a system, Goju Ryu Karate- these things are systems, we can define what they are and what they arent

from what Ive seen so far currently "Krav Maga" isnt a system its a brand


questions to KM instructors/Students:

Ive seen the vertical fist in several krav videos and books Ive flipped thru at Borders





the instructor Steve Jiminez says in the first video:

THE WEAPON ALWAYS MOVES FIRST

in the second video

WE GO WITH INSTINCTIVE MOVEMENTS AND WE ALWAYS, IN KRAV MAGA, ADDRESS THE IMMEDIATE DANGER FIRST- in this case he chooses to wait until the guy has him by the throat rather than attack preemptively, then he attacks th hands on his throat not the man who owns the hands

now Ive seen these principles and techniques mentioned before in KM instructionals, so I'd like to know:

are these KM principles/ techniques or just the way this individual instructor teaches?



If anyone can help me understand I would be grateful.


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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:42 am



Im not pickin on anyone here, these videos are the top search results in youtube

is this video a good demonstration of genuine Krav Maga? this video is from an Israeli school.

I've got to go to London for a couple of days but when I get back Im goin to hit my local Krav Schools, I want to be able to answer the question from a more informed position, in the meantime if anyone can help me out with these questions so far I would appreciate it.
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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:07 am

AMIR PERETS
KRAV POSTER CHILD SINCE FOREVER

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbnhUCvlGUU

HE WAS EVEN IN MOVIES Razz

RICHIE WROTE///
whats a "horzintal" system, how does it differ from a vertical one?

how is the approach unique?


I THINK THAT'S JUST CODE FOR
'WE ADD STUFF WHEN WE LIKE IT' lol!

NOT DIFFERENT, MAYBE DIFF FROM TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ARTS, I RECKON...
LIKE THE REST OF US cheers cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:20 am

MY Opinion about krav maga , is that the people like itay gil etc, are very very talented fighters in combat jiujitsu, sambo kickboxing etc, and then simplify the techniques for the normal man.

but the only one who can do the simple techniques is the one who can fight in other areas as well
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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:33 pm

More on Amir {Perets}

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF0iC1HgHJw&feature=related
and--after a bit, you see technique explained and amir
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFcEWJHprtU&feature=related
and this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNFLND1Rm0A&feature=related

looks more like an commitment to:
-no time lag responses, to include using off timing [unanticipated such as pre'emptive]
-boxing and hardstyles--with range constantly tweeked [elbows and knees when some might
back up for more hits from hands]
-forward drive
-speed

in other words, what you do already...his punching was k/o minded arks
if he doesn't represent krav, i don't know who does?
keep pushing for his name, i've seen clips of him as a younger man...a student.
just strong hard style basics and no sports timing. if your questions are still unanswered by next week, i'll have that book from my mate that explains in intirity their philosophical apodictic do's and don'ts.
i got rid of it because i felt so many things already a part of my training philosophy that it felt redundant. but i'm still curious as to how they run the local club.


and a helpful blackbelt demo that gives the fast and then the slow for how they drill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ft2Tbth6bQ&feature=related

and this icon in the system obviously showcasing attacking whilst the opponent is off balance,
off balance due RTD'esque movements. made me think of soldiers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdfWm_wNZH0&feature=fvw

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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:15 pm

this vid gives a thorough background, it's development,
and then sort of dilutes to t.v. land stopping at 'human weapon'

the most helpful all in all

http://www.commandokravmaga.com/html/index.html

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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:15 am

The syllabus of krav maga from a technical perspective... Don't know if this is what you are looking for, but it is the closest match found so far.

Quote :
Curriculum of IKMF

Unit 01: General Information and Theory
Unit 02: Teaching Methodology; Human body
Unit 03: Preliminary Considerations
Unit 04: The Basics
Unit 05: Attacking with the Hands
Unit 06: Attacking with the Legs
Unit 07: Defenses against Punches
Unit 08: Defenses against Kicks
Unit 09: Releases from Grabs, Chocks & Holds at high level
Unit 10: Releases from Grabs & Holds at medium level
Unit 11: Releases with Throws
Unit 12: Release from holds & grabs on the floor
Unit 13: Leverages & Takedowns
Unit 14: Defense against attacks involving a stick / club.
Unit 15: Defenses against attacks involving a knife (edged weapons).
Unit 16: Defense against threats involving a knife (edged weapons).
Unit 17: Defense against threats involving handgun
Unit 18: Defense against threats involving Submachine gun
Unit 19: Using common objects as weapons in defense
against armed assailants
Unit 20: Self defense against two assailants or more
(armed with knife/stick or not armed)
Unit 20-25:Military training units
Unit 25-29:Law-Enforcement training unites
Unit 30-33:Additional units for Security and VIP Protection
Unit 34: Self-defense for Children - Applications and transformations of the basic techniques and training methods for children
Unit 35: Self-defense for Women - Applications and transformations of the basic techniques and training methods for women.
Unit 36: Fighting Drills
Unit 37-38:Fighting Tactics and applications.
Unit 39: Fighting in different positions & places
Unit 40: Ways and applications of mental training
Unit 41-44:Training Methods for the above units
Unit 45: Simulations and scenarios, analyzing and training accordingly

http://www.kravmaga.no/about2.htm


On the subject of krav maga being a brand, a few thoughts. The official krav maga book "how to defend yourself against armed assault" is foreworded by no less than two Israeli prime-ministers. The krav maga logo contains the Israeli military industries logo (IMI). It seems like krav maga is one of the "things" of the nation.

Krav maga was also as far as I can tell the first RBSD made widely available in the mainstream. As opposed to the mainly sport or "art" focused stuff that dominated back then. It appears to have had strong marketing all the way. So it becoming somewhat of a brand seems from their perspective both desirable and hard to avoid.

On a BTW tangent. Stuff like the failure to pre-empt in the choke-defense clip commented on earlier. I have seen krav maga instructors demonstrate the defense (which necessitates that there is someone choking you) but pointing out that you should never allow someone to get that close in the first place. So these youtube clips seem to leave out too much context. Though OTOH you could question the quality of many of the youtube experts. As I've said other times and places, instructorhood is a place of monkeys. Many seem more concerned with instructing, being an instructor (or boss-ape), than actually teaching and what(that) they are teaching. Or to rephrase that; that students are learning.

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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:04 am

thanks guys, thats helpful

but I still dont feel confident I know what Krav Maga is- is it just me? would others feel they know enough to give an opinion?

if someone asks "what do you think of krav maga" how do you answer?

nothing so far has addressed what KM is technically or stylistically that differentiates it OR why there is such a (seeming) disparity in what is demonstrated technically or stylistically

RichB, did the same KM instructor have the students drill preemptively and did he demo what that would look/feel like - or did he just pay lip service to moving preemptively? Ive deffo seen more demo's of that choke defense done reactively in KM than I have explosive preemption of the attack


one last question- do y'all think this qualifies as a system or more as a training paradigm/brand?

i.e. are there some choke defences (for example) that are definitely not KM due to infringing intrinsic principles and some that are more KM due to adhering to those principles... if so what are the principles?

Ive heard two principles so far: weapon moves first, work with instinctive movement
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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:13 am

i'm going to get that book back from my friend...still not sure if it's exactly what you want but it was a core philosophical parameter for how to approach defense


mean time, i found this googling 'core principles krav maga'

"Core Principles of Krav Maga

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Before my test for brown belt in late June of this year, I spent two months or so breaking down the curriculum, analyzing it and offering my own insight on it. One of the subjects I covered are the principles behind Krav Maga, it's basic characteristics. Here they are, listed in no particular order:

1) Directing attacks at weak points: Attacks should always be directed at parts of the opponents body where they will cause great pain/damage and won't be blocked by muscle/fat.

2) Quick and powerful impact: Attacks must be quick and powerful, otherwise they have no meaning. Slow attacks won't hit on time and weak attacks won't hurt.

3) Hard style: Krav Maga utilizes force vs force and is characterized by short, quick attacks. Defense isn't based on using an opponents force against him (in most cases), but will rather be blocked or evaded and countered immediately.

4) Emphasis on technique rather than strength: Krav Maga fits everyone, since techniques are utilitarian and not strength-dependant. A teenage girl must be able to defend against an adult male.

5) Improvisation: Reality is seldom a dojo, therefore Krav Maga stresses improvisation. A precise, quick and powerful reaction is preferable to memorizing techniques. The techniques are taught as an ideal, the best possible reaction to a given situation. 6) Lack of rules: Since the issue is self-defense, all means are santioned. We won't be considerate of a person who attacks us, so Krav Maga is devoid of rules. Kicking to the groin, spitting, biting, gouging and hair pulling are all legitimate.

7) Simplicity: Krav Maga techniques are concise. They aren't visually appealing because beauty is luxury, something that an attacked person doesn't have. Simple is effective and efficient.

Cool Adjustability to each practitioner: Every person has a different build, and not everyone can create a 180 degree angle between their legs. Krav Maga teaches the "trunk of the tree", and every practitioner finds his or her "branch". A heavy person can emphasizes fist fighting, a small person can take advantage of his frame for quickness, etc. "


...and to answer your question, i'm not clear i'd recognize it as anything other than a combative with a bursting style. i do remember the first one from the book though--weak points above all else, kinda like.
and mixing it up [leg,arm,elbow,head, etc] to really inundate someone. the words km probably mean something very mundane [don't know though] like fight or close combat...or ouchie Razz



i remember a term retzev--and i think that's that mixing it up part.

but here's wiki-higgledy-pedia's version on principles

"Krav Maga



Krav Maga
Focus Hybrid
Country of origin Israel
Slovak Republic

Hungary
Creator Imi Lichtenfeld
Parenthood Kapap, Street fighting
Olympic sport No
Krav Maga (pronounced /ˌkrɑːv məˈɡɑː/; Hebrew: קרב מגע‎, IPA: [ˈkʁav maˈɡa], lit. "contact combat" or "close combat") is an eclectic hand-to-hand combat system developed in Israel.[1] It was derived from street-fighting skills developed by Imi Lichtenfeld, who made use of his training as a boxer and wrestler, as a means of defending the Jewish quarter during a period of anti-Semitic activity in Budapest in the mid- to late 1930s. In the late 1940s, following his emigration to Israel, he began to provide hand-to-hand combat training to what was to become the IDF, developing the techniques that became known as Krav Maga. It has since been refined for both civilian and military applications. Unlike most martial arts, Krav Maga is essentially a tactical defense skill. Its philosophy emphasizes threat neutralization, simultaneous defensive and offensive maneuvers, and aggressive endurance in a 'him-or-me' context. Krav Maga is still used by the Israel Defense Forces and several closely related variations have been developed and adopted by law enforcement, Mossad, Shin Bet, FBI, United States special operations forces, Irish Rangers and British Special Forces. There are several organizations teaching variations of Krav Maga internationally.[2][3][4][5] [6]




[edit] Etymology
The name in Hebrew means "Hand-to-hand combat." Krav (קרב) meaning "combat" or "battle" and Maga (מגע) meaning "contact" or "touch". (Oxford Hebrew-English dictionary)[7] Krav Maga teaches combat involving physical body contact as opposed to combat involving projectile or distance weaponry such as guns, artillery, tanks and planes.



[edit] Basic principles
Krav Maga is not a martial art by traditional standards. There are no rules for Krav Maga fighting, and no built-in distinctions in training between men and women.[8] It has no sporting federation, and there are no official uniforms or attire, although some organizations, internally, do recognize progress through training with rank badges, different levels, and belts.

Techniques generally focus on training combatants in conditions approximating real-life scenarios. Krav Maga trains combatants for situations where losing would be potentially fatal. Its attack and defense maneuvers aim to neutralize the threat and facilitate rapid and safe escape. These include a variety of fast and fluid crippling attacks to vulnerable body parts through various efficient and often brutal strikes. The improvised use of any available aids is encouraged - maximizing personal safety in a fight is emphasized.

Krav Maga training programs involve rapid learning, with offensive and defensive techniques introduced from the first lesson and retzev (pronounced ret-zef and meaning "sequencing") playing an important part in both training and maneuvers.[9]

Use the most natural, quickest, reflexes of the body
Exploit the opponent's vulnerabilities to their extreme
Employ the aid of any available objects[8]


[edit] Basic training
Krav Maga has taken many techniques from various martial arts; however, unlike the set routines and choreographed moves in martial arts, Krav Maga teaches realistic fighting and self-defense attacks in social settings (pubs, clubs, street etc). Typical training often includes exercises simulating fighting against one or several opponents and/or whilst protecting another. This can also involve a debilitating scenario the use of only one arm, while dizzy and against armed opponents.




Some schools incorporate "Strike and Fight," which consists of full-contact sparring intended to familiarize the student with the stresses of a violent situation.

Training within extreme acoustic, visual, and verbal scenarios prepares students to ignore peripheral distractions and focus on the needs of the situation.[citation needed] Other training methods to increase realism might include blindfolding or exercising trainees to near exhaustion before dealing with a simulated attack as well as training outdoors on a variety of surfaces and restrictive situations.

Training will also cover situational awareness in order to develop an understanding of one's surroundings and potentially threatening circumstances before an attack is launched. It may also cover "Self Protection": ways to deal with potentially violent situations, and physical and verbal methods to avoid violence whenever possible.

Various techniques are then shown which end in a retzev (fluid defense/attack).





[
Krav Maga is claimed, by some, to be the fastest growing martial arts system in the world today.[18]

The Swedish Army uses Krav Maga lightly in close combat training for urban warfare.

Krav Maga has grown and developed in Scotland through the Institute of Krav Maga in Scotland, specialising in seminars on Law Enforcement utilising Krav Maga techniques, held in association with the Scottish Police Training College [19]


[edit] Leadership
There are numerous organisations around the world teaching Krav Maga or variants. Since the death of its founder, differences have arisen, with competing claims to heirship. Some organizations and individuals claim to be the sole heir while others contend it is an "open" art which should not be owned by any person or group.


[edit] See also
List of Krav Maga techniques
Hand to hand combat
Imi Lichtenfeld
Jujutsu
Kapap
Special forces
Israel Defence Forces
[hide]v d eMartial arts by focus

Martial arts are listed by area of primary focus.

Mixed, hybrid,
and multi-discipline Baguazhang Bando Bartitsu Hapkido Hung Ga Hwa Rang Do Jeet Kune Do Kuk Sool Won Kalarippayattu Krav Maga MCMAP Northern Praying Mantis RBSD Ninjutsu Oom Yung Doe Pankration Pencak Silat San Shou Shootfighting Systema Tai chi chuan Vajra Mushti Vovinam Wushu Xingyiquan

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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:49 pm

The goal of KM is to achieve reliable performance under pressure in relatively short time. So to that end, instead of reworking the foundation, they use the instinctive tendencies already there. Looking to use very straightforward solutions from that point of view to a wide range of problems. Defensive stuff is used where it has to be, and emphasis is placed on aggression to put an end to the situation as quickly as possible.

A general outline of the principles going into KM if you will.

I.e., regarding the choke defense. The instructor said that just punching the guy in the head may well be a better response, but it is not logical to the stupid adrenalized brain, which has a strong tendency to reach for the offending hands when someone has got a tight choke going, so building off of that response becomes easier to learn and more reliable under pressure.

Apply that to the cucciculum quoted above and it should give a general idea of KM as a system.

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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:19 am

hey russ,

1- the word "retzev", pronounced re-tze-f, means in hebrew doing one thing after another....in this context i think it means fluidity in motion...
2- just to set the record straight about km in israel : every 18 years old youngster in israel goes to the army... few of them will go to special forces units...under the term special forces there a lot of units that has a different level of being special ( damm the languge barriar Very Happy Very Happy sorry ) . i was in the infantry ( not a special forces unit' just hard time service...) and our martial arts training summed up in 2-3 sessions.... every special forcec unit goes to "lotar" school , "lotar" means anti terrorist fighting, there they train in all kinds of scenarios... in order to train an 18 years old brat who not always has fighting experience they train HARD and aggressivley in relative short time. BUT to say they train in km is not accurate they train to achive a state of mind where one will be in a violante frenzy... km is not the official idf training system, in fact there isn't such a thing as an official... . it is true that certain km instructors works with idf units BUT there are a lot of outside instructors working with the idf which are not... it all has to do with whether you as an instructor has to offer that meets the units need
3- regarding the question what is km, well for me it relates to the bigger picture in short " what makes a system one hole that distinguish it from another. the late bruce lee made a revolution in the paradigm saying "absorb what is usfull " and by that he broke the classical i do this system and you do that... one of the reasons i like richie's stuff is that he follows tha same path. km main principle focus 's on instinctive reactions in a stretfull situation nothing magical or uniqe, isn't that what all of the RBSD say they do ? one should reserch and test if THE WAY they train achievs these goels. in my very humble opinion and it is mine alone, the name of the system is of no importance , i value the fact that richie has no name for his system in fact maybe he has no system but he has a WAY and for me his WAY works because it's practical , tested and evoloves from trial and error. the fact that he has the integrity to say hey mates ( can you say this word in english ? Very Happy languge again ) i'm in a constante search and i think my past thinking needs to be adjusted is what makes me know he is the "real deal " ( a term i learned here in the forum ). there is not km there are km instructors. all rbsd uses the same terms and mainly, again my humble opinion , the same goels it's the WAY they do it. i expect my instructor to never teach what he teaches just because thats the way it was thought to him. what is km ? it's a name some of the people who are using it are good and some are not...
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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:08 pm

Well said Nironi!
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PostSubject: Re: Fight Quest - Israel (Krav Maga)   Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:15 am

rock-n-roll Nironi,
i knew someone would come through, and it was better coming from the inside--than from without.
i was an anthropology major, and dealt with the question constantly of someone truly understanding a culture or anything else from the outside looking in.
also, the closest thing i have to [retzev", pronounced re-tze-f] would be what Richie calls sticking to someone--awesome concept. not quite the same but bloody close. i had my suspicions that RBSD, Combatives, KM, etc...was one of those paths [collectively when done right] that makes constant adjustments. like looking at something honestly. in the end--so i've been told, once you get there the roads dissappear..

another thing anthro did for me. there are two types in the world--maybe more but you get the idea,
the lumpers and the splitters. i tend to think there's nothing too new under the sun and when you pursue
something with rigor, and honesty...you'll probably see several others arriving at the same destination with the same mind for it. and when one doesn't, one runs into like minded charlatans Razz . when i was in high school i ran constantly into charlatans and it annoyed me because i suspected that there was a reason for it that traced back to me. the more honestly i trod on my own road, the more i found like minded individuals from a varied background--which didn't seem to matter.

typical lumper profile--my bias
afro

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