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 skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me

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thugsage
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PostSubject: skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me   Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:56 pm

i'm a little slow. it's no secret. so if i'm not onto something, of if i'm on to something
obvious, politely direct me to the candy machine and explain it gently.

it's just that i'm trying to undo years of linear stuff--when needed. i knew a fighter that
did really well because he 'tweeked' his round kick to a sloppier (hmmm, sounds
negative, but is it?), rising (which sneaks under guards), not knee unwinding (just sort
of hurling) kick. i used it twice, no not sparring or tournaments, and it really packs a
wollop. anyway, for years i just thought...cool. but now i've been finding, in my
resistance training, that i'm really recking the pads by adding the minute circular torgue
that Richie always talks about in the k/o stuff, that the power is phenominally increasing.
don't get me wrong, i've been preaching non-telegraphing, torque, sneaking rising punches
for years to the hodge-podge of students that let me teach them. but i've always thought of
'elbows-in' as part of the sneaky approach, which also means no circular stuff, and tends to
make my punch come out thumb on top. if this is all sounding like an avalanche of words.
think of the old fashioned boxer with the low arms, and rising punch (elbows flush against the sides, that would be the extreme exageration)...but not the geeky strapless evening gown style trousers. anyway, lately i've been trying to see what packs a wollop, and sort of keep
in mind what Richie adresses in some of his clips. i also have all that wave-form and systema
on the brain. what could surprise Richie after all that he's done? i can't answer that question,
but i'm starting to really like driving punches down, spiraling them in, making the avenue not
only jar the head (i'm a head hunter...not the yum yum type, but punching type), or crack that collar bone for the deliteful affect it has for onlookers considering taking you on, but also
that aikido mentality (tried it for a month to see what it was about--doesn't make me an expert, or even a good beginner, but i learned something important) of taking someone out
of their balance patterns--they are braced to withstand forward force, but not some jarring
just off kilter pattern back and off a ways. i've tried this horsing around with a wrestler, and
you know you're on to something when someone starts getting pissed like you're not playing
by his special rules.

so what's my point, hitting pads and striking for off angles, the ones that send someone off
of their braced body patterns. probably obvious to most of you thugs, but new and exciting to
me. i started out this game trying to show people i cared about how to not allow people to
know how you would 'receive them'. my mother taught me several things when she bit her
attackers finger almost off--and he fainted...be fucking unpredictable and vicious.

i was going to write two things, but i'll just add that i hate forms...there, i've said it, you guys
are now my therapists...forms make you aware of neat little angles and, if you've been raised
in the systems i have, make you forget all about that tight fist that requires much greater concentration than that sweet looking nice 'whatever' degree angle kick with foot flat on the floor.
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PostSubject: Re: skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me   Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:13 pm

Quote :
i'm starting to really like driving punches down, spiraling them in, making the avenue not
only jar the head

in Russian Martial Arts they are big into the direction of force AFTER impact, something many trainers seem to have lost sight of... look at some of the punching styles of Russian Fighters : Fedor, Igor Vovchanchin - these wide "swinging" or "casting " punches that crack eye sockets and break noses

then you have Chuck Lidell an expert in looping downward driven clipping punches



Quote :
of taking someone out
of their balance patterns--they are braced to withstand forward force, but not some jarring
just off kilter pattern back and off a ways. i've tried this horsing around with a wrestler, and
you know you're on to something when someone starts getting pissed like you're not playing
by his special rules.

there is a section in the Beta 8 syllabus DVD two all about incidental strikes and "rough" (rather than "smooth") grappling... this comes straight from Bob Spour who specifically taught me this as a way of putting on rear chokes- not all slick with no gaps like a good BJJer but rough and being banged into the gaps, ripped and shook from side to side- its just awful!



Untrained fighters can be a pain because they are unpredictable- doesnt make them better fighters but its an important principle that you learn if playfighting with your girlfriend and she whacks you with a weird kick that is:

1. totally unexpected and unforeseeable because it was delivered with minimum intention- and therefore hurts more because of the shock factor
2. isnt a "proper" technique so we have no mental software for perceiving it

form is good because it gives us a mold to grow into but as my old Ninjitsu instructor Brin Morgan was fond of saying "molds are made to be broken"
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PostSubject: Re: skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me   Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:37 pm

.


Last edited by DaveCollins on Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me   Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:10 pm

thanks for the critic/advice/input/inspiration,
i'm liking the way i feel about it. Richie, that girl friend reference also strikes a chord--my son is also great at doing impromptu
head-butts, etc. Dave, i'm taking what you said to heart too.

Richie, what you mentioned about what Bob teaches, i think it reminds of things i did by accident and didn't know why
they worked. i want to say more, but i want to think first.
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PostSubject: Re: skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me   Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:12 pm

Richie,
i actually knew a russian shotokan guy who sort of fought like you said. he was good, had alot of confidence, and sort of arked/bent
his kicks and punches, and chose the longer range moves. i used to question it and think it was styled, now maybe i'm thinking he was
drawing on past influences--from what you say.
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PostSubject: Re: skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me   Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:17 pm

thanks for the forms comment.
i originally gave up on forms for the reasons stated, then i started making them for my students--only containing moves we actually
practice, not wacky ones that i don't understand. then i did away with them, probably a mistake on my part. i think i'll bring 'em back
as a form of visuallizing-self-training, etc. again, i'll probably tweek them without all the hops and right angle block-punch moves
that probably had defending yourself against a horse and pitch work whilst running along a fence (ha ha).

sorry to break up my response...just finished steam cleaning my deck, getting ready to stain it, feeding my son, yada yada yada.
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PostSubject: Re: skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me   Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:30 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9NM4UizOCo

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PostSubject: Re: skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me   Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:53 pm

got it. thanks. makes sense. programing mental software now...
-r
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PostSubject: Re: skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me   Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:10 am

ripping, ragging... shocking, twisting... gripping then "pulsing" with the energy of strike applied in grappling... a savage mauling

pirat
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PostSubject: Re: skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me   Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:29 pm

I kinda know what you know with the 'hurling' kick cos i got taught something very similair when i did escrima but im mystified byt the twisty torquey punches could someone stick some vids up or gimme a explanation? just ive been trying to get a more 'looping' cross and i cant really figure out how to work it.
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PostSubject: Re: skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me   Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:44 pm

Richie will probably express/execute it better.

for me i take the full body connections of a boxers punch--from my leg to my hip--adding a twist of my waist and making sure to coordinate my movement so the punch connects almost simultaniously rather than in a sort of 1-2-3-4 kind of exploding that waists power /movement/ speed.

rather than muscling my arm--which for me is never as
powerful...i think about only mildly extending it, and bracing it...i rely on the power of my back and try to make sure my fists/wrists are ready for the impact.

lastly i bring it (the punch) in in a SLIGHTLY off direction (downward into the collar bone; or
slightly accross (like Richie's dvd for KO's) the jaw; etc). sort of experimenting with course-
ways that the body (i'm trying to damage) can't brace for. nothing overly dramatic because
i'd rather a person brace for something familiar, and get something not only having a real
impact, but an unpredictable direction of power. i think it will have a psychological affect if
you send someone off their balance--and make it painful. i want to make someone feel like
(for lack of a better expression) a white-belt. i also want to hit someone in a sensitive area.
on the pads i visualize collar bones, necks, eyes, knee or groins--for kicks. i don't want to
waist time in a contest. i want someone injured, afraid for their safety, and off their game.

i don't know if that helps explain what i meant. add that to the dirty-grappling stuff that Richie
has on his beta 8 (dvd 2)--as the rest of it that i would only be paraphrasing.
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PostSubject: Re: skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me   Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:38 pm

cheers for the reply, i think i understand what your getting at but im gonna go try it on my bag and see what happens.
Also how does punching the collar bone work out? i mean is it easy to break ? do you need fist like bricks?
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PostSubject: Re: skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me   Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 pm

thanks for the reply mate,
collar bone is easy...too easy for comfort if you ask me. i believe i've heard 'Loki' using a hammer fist downward from a punch to the side of the head. that would do it if you were thinking of the collar bone.
me...i'm just talking about a slightly downward traveling straight-ish punch. the collar bone is a mystery, and if you crack it, you'll not be interested in
finishing. it's a good move if you have something in your hand too.
humbly,
-r
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PostSubject: Re: skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me   Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:32 pm

forgive me if this is obvious...i thought of it after i wrote it.
just for clarity, this would be best for someone my height or shorter--sort of coming down hard. for taller, if i'm really 'still' thinking
about that collar bone, i might be thinking about another way to do it, like circling down an elbow (haven't done this yet--but it's why
i hit the pad in this way for my elbow). for me, i'm keeping the same targets/injuries in mind, and figuring out what my best few
moves are to practice with. it helps 'me' (maybe not others) to keep a limit on my targets. i like what i heard Richie say about the
jaw line, coming at an angle, being a knock out place. i have a habit of punching straight on (palms inward), but i've been experi-
menting with different ways for my fist to land, trying to figure out what best suits the surface of my fist--and causes the least dis
comfort to me. i take to heart all the hype of the front two knuckles, but find it's better to occasionally focus on keeping my weaker
two fingers tight (pinky and ring finger) because when you punch like a boxer, these sometimes slightly unwind (for me) and make
self-injury more possible (you mentioned having an 'iron-fist'). i don't. i've broken my hand on someone before--throwing a hay-
maker when i was tired...it still clicks whenever i want it to. all this to say, i give alot of attention to making sure what i throw hurts
them more than it hurts me. it's why started not muscling punches. when you start hitting harder surfaces then a pad, or when you
start weightlifting, etc...and get more power going (for me), that's when the balance is sometimes off and injuries happen. my focus
becomes instead, making my hands rock hard in grip. i've tried keeping them loose for speed, then tightening them at the end, but
i've injured them midway, on occasion...running them into someone's elbow. that's a nuissance. another perk of being a head hunter is
this sort of thing can be avoided.

anyway, i'm probably saying more than you care to know. but for me, that's how i answer the question.
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PostSubject: Re: skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me   Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:33 pm

...don't know if this is obvious for everyone but me but i've been doing stuff to generate power/surprise/etc... and work around
a f@#$ed up right leg that is shooting with sciatic nerve pain. it's sort of the mother-fucker of invention. i started off only using
my hands, and that's how i've had to train lately, to include rising up on my toes when i really torgue into punching--to work around
the pain in my leg. i just don't bother if i can't really pack a wallop. i used to never rise up on my toes (karate brainwashing).
well, i've been trying out this circular overhead punch that i feel is great if you have a hold of someone with the other hand. you
have to dip your lead shoulder--the shoulder closest to the person, and overhead circle in (the punch comes from overhead). you
have to sort of have your side to someone or your fist wont land flat. imagine grabbing someone with your left hand, dipping
left in--toward him, and coming down hard in a downward circle with your right. it's a nice punch, it comes hard. i'm sorry if i didn't
describe it right. i just wanted to bring this up because i really think it's worth a try on the pads. don't muscle this, it's all spiraling
in and using the power of the back. let the momentum do it for you. keep your fist/wrist readied. wham. i love this punch.

happy happy joy joy.
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PostSubject: Re: skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me   Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:05 pm

Russell are you a tall long limbed type?
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PostSubject: Re: skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me   Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:29 am

Richie,
no...i'm a middle-weight/middle-height cross-training build type. i just found alot of power coming out of the wind up. i guess i'd
be thinking collar bones with this last punch if the guy was tall. otherwise, i was just thinking of a wicked stun, coming from an
odd direction.
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PostSubject: Re: skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me   Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:46 pm

Ive tried out the overhead punch but i can only get good power by doing a weird hip turn with it (sort of turn the left side of my hip clockwise then turn my entire pelvis anti clockwise and throw the punch) not sure how well i explained that but it does get good power because ive knackered my wrist while whacking the bag. (next time i think im gonna hang my bag horizontally Smile )

oh and for the record im tall with long limbs, it generally doesnt seem to cause many problems but i think broader builds have a better time of it. or maybe i just cant base for shit?
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PostSubject: Re: skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me   Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:38 pm

AndyF,
sorry mate, i turn my waste too--i'm all about torque whenever possible. i start sort of feet facing 90 degrees to my target, then
torque in generating a circular overhead punch. i sort of keep my arm bent 90 degrees the whole time too. sounds like we're doing
the same punch. grab that shirt and wallop down on him. my wrist had to take a break too, for me because i didn't notice that my
target-practice item (an old airconditioner in a box) was backing up and eventually had a hard surface behind it (a wall) with no
give (ha ha). i have it on a neck high wall--surface really. for the purpose of a natural give, at the right height.
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PostSubject: Re: skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me   Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:30 am

...also,
this downward circular onslaught works real well with the Richie-headcontrol (with your left hand--for example) and the downward slamming
right elbow--that head is going no-where. also consider the same with a downward palm. when i was practicing with students/friends, using
Richie's advice of having many strikes from the fence, one that flowed nicely was grabbing the back of the neck and slamming that palm (back
of hand at your face sort of) down on the bridge of the nose (for me several times in a row while running them back). sweet deal, felt pretty
pretty pretty good.
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PostSubject: Re: skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me   Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:42 pm

small stuff really. just adding for those thick headed ones like me. most of you probably knew this intuitively. i was drilled over and over to punch by corking it toward the center as if punch some imaginary bloke in the solar plexus standing face to face with me. makes sense, no complaints. but if you're doing something like grabbing, holding on, and punching...i humbly think if you're the stiff sort, like me, that the first shot should be sideways. this comes from the pads, not the street. but whilst training my bad side, meaning not my favorite, the more i turned away from the target the harder it fired out when twisting in. if that makes sense to anyone, god bless you. my punch came in harder, straighter, etc...so this was a case of thinking like a boxer--whilst punching, but coming from a off angle grab where i don't start off facing someone. don't even know if it was worth the post. but the cannon fire punching got me so worked up, i thought i wanted to share. it made me happy to use my left reverse-hand punch and hear the bat-crack thwack that usually only comes from my right. sorry i'm geeky for a powerpunch, if it was too obvious, just forgive me for being easily amused...i'm a cheap date that way. this time my body was the skewed line.
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PostSubject: Re: skewed lines--obvious to you guys probably, epiphany for me   Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:53 pm

and for anyone who cares, and read the stuff before...yeah, it's a variation of the overhead that came in with the same body mechanics.
but i got a zen-fart in-the-moment 'moment' from it--because of the power/speed theme i live for, so it was like madonna said, "like being
touched for the very first time"...even though it was the very first time 'today' sort of thing. it means alot when i find new speed/power in
anything i do.
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