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 getting quite a few questions from policemen at the mo'... check this one

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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: getting quite a few questions from policemen at the mo'... check this one   Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:50 pm

Quote :
Hi Richie,

Can I just ask you a quick question..........

Here is an incident I went to on Saturday night/Sunday morning

Went to a domestic in the street; 2 people were having a disagreement..... the male party became irate and hostile with police, shouting; swearing and being abusive........ went to lock him up for D&D .... he resisted........... so normally knee strikes, non compliant handcuffing techniques etc work......... this time it didn't (at all)......... my colleague ended up having to CS him.........

I tried knee strikes, hammer fists, taking his leg out, non complaint handcuffing etc - but it didn't work at all

Flip side is he was drunk, stoned and a lot bigger than us two! I just feel as though I have been 'defeated'....

Your thoughts please matey ? Can you think of a better way to have put him on the floor ?

Thanks and regards
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PostSubject: Re: getting quite a few questions from policemen at the mo'... check this one   Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:41 pm

Difficult for police and doorman these days, a lot more rules and regs to follow, always got to protect the scum bags human rights…..never mind yours eh Evil or Very Mad !! Surely you could have used the ASP if it got that bad? “A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in the effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders.”

I was always told if you feel in doubt of the method you are using and you are “put in fear” and what your doing is not working, then you use whatever technique/method available, ie BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF THE T**T with your asp till he/she/they go down Cool . In court you can stand up on oath and honestly say I had no other choice, especially if he was armed or dangerous. Other option was I would end up in hospital or dead! Hope that is of some relevance, very difficult these days.
Regards
Nick
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PostSubject: Re: getting quite a few questions from policemen at the mo'... check this one   Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:35 pm

K9, are you training to be a bobby or just working with them ?

I've used asps on people and been unimpressed with the result- I had an argument recently with a london police lady who said the asp can shatter the leg bone so police are not being taught to strike the legs with the asp any more? it used to be considered a legitmate target.

anyway, here is the scary follow up reply I just got:

Quote :
Hiya mate...

If you could do a video clip for me that would be appreciated............

I didn't like feeling as though I was defeated, i.e. having to resort to CS.... i tried all sorts though and he wasn't going down.......

I never went for the head, i had the cuffs on him and tried using a non compliant cuff technique to force him to the floor - but it did no good - used a straight arm technique (apply pressure to triceps) but that had no effect - knee strikes and kicks to the shins (no good either) - hammer fists strikes on the shoulder - still nothing - tripping him up (no good) so then CS came into use - 2 sprays, nothing, 3rd spray, it worked...........

Usually some/all of the above do work but this time it didn;t?

But ye if you could do a vid clip would be great, thanks....... (and any other clips you've got as well would be cool)

Cheers

best regards


I say its scary because if police are really being taught to hammer fist the shoulder and kick people in the shins, we have a problem! this is school play fight material

Ive advised this chap before to take up muay thai so he can deliver some good elbows and knees (not into the head) and gets some good close range stand up grappling on the go and that if he wants to do a takedown he must learn head controls

any further advice?

K9 what is the remit for bobbies with their marital arts training?
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VictorS

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PostSubject: Re: getting quite a few questions from policemen at the mo'... check this one   Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:39 pm

Aim for the carotid artery. Hammer fist, punch.
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PostSubject: Re: getting quite a few questions from policemen at the mo'... check this one   Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:53 pm

the chap who runs the http://www.selfprotection.lightbb.com is a bobby and a good mate, Im going to ask him to come over and see what he says about it... actually there a few cops over there... and solicitors... I will ask them. I want to know what you can advise police to do and what would be considered unusable by them
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muchtolearn

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PostSubject: Re: getting quite a few questions from policemen at the mo'... check this one   Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:33 pm

May I suggest along with neck /head control/Chest to Back positioning... also striking/tearing into the primary targets: eyes /throat..especially if the perp is on drugs/drunk and can't feel pain.and the CQCombat tool dum,dee dum,dum,,the shredder Cool ? Of course I'm biased, Richie for choice of in the CQC, clinching, grappling range Smile! It's bang on for smaller male and female LEOs!

Here's a thread with quite a few UK and US LE's input
Passive Shred applied to drug dealer in UK Police Operation
http://senshido.savi.ca/viewtopic.php?t=4921&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

here's another action report from US LE "Banzai7" :
Quote :
One thing that has really impressed me about the shredder is the fact that it works so well as a control tool. Yes, it can cause horrific trauma, but it doesn't have too. The one using the shredder can determine the level of damage as the situation / shred evolves.

Last night as my shift was starting a drunken combative 300 lb. male was brought into the PD under arrest for a host of stupid things. After processing the shift supervisor decided that said drunk needed to go to the hospitol for evaluation due to his mental state ( and we didn't want to babysit the moron all night ). The fire department shows up to transport the drunk and he gets real jumpy. He was clenching fists and flat out saying that he's not going to the hospital and he'll kill the next guy that touches him.

One cop approached him from either flank, with the plan of controlling his arms to get him on the stretcher. They get hold of both his arms and start applying gooseneck locks. The gooseneck lock is a mild pain compliance lock that only work under the best of conditions ( like most pain compliance methods ). Mr. 300 lb pissed off drunk is clearly not impressed with the gooseneck lock, pulls his right arm out and starts to swing his massive ( and slightly chubby ) fist. I managed to get inside, right in his face and start a shred. Not an all out tearing and crushing shred, just a unbalanceing, thought stealing, sight depriving shred.
The big drunk couldn't maintain his balance or ability to fight, and went right in the direction I was pressureing him to go ( onto the stretcher ).
It took 4 cops and two firefighters to restrain him and strap him down, but eventually the job got done.
End Results: drunk uninjured and delivered to the hospitol, cops uninjured, firefighters uninjured.
Win, win, win.

Warren


Last edited by muchtolearn on Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: getting quite a few questions from policemen at the mo'... check this one   Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:56 pm

ok so I asked the question of Brian over at selfprotection and this is his answer (ITS NOT MINE) Razz

He's lost his log in details so just asked me to copy and paste this

Quote :
The training of UK police is much better than it used to be back in the twisty wristy days of Taiho Jitsu.... but it is still pretty dire.

Yes, we have basic strikes, and they have simplified the baton course (which also used to be ridiculous). The addition of incapacitant spray is also helpful. Add body armour to the mix and we are better trained and equipped than ever.

However, we still only get 6 hours per year. Yes, that is 6 hours per year. Dire. And much of that is still a little wristy twisty.

As for what we can and cannot do? They do warn against attacks around the neck. This is because of fears generated by people who have died from the unrelated condition of positional asphyxiation (basically where a fat bloke is made to lie face don on the floor, often cuffed and or unconcious, and suffocates).

They used to tell you not to head butt too, but that has been relaxed.

We are bound by the same criminal law as the public. If we genuinely believe that the force we are using is reasonable in the circumstances, then we should be ok. Obviously the more force we use, the more convincing we have to do.

I've never heard of the "don't baton the legs because they'll break" suggestion, and I received my 6 hours just a few weeks ago, so that may be an urban myth. It is certainly dumb as 1) legs don't break that easy and 2) if the criminal law allows it, then go for it.

As for the Shredder? I am well known (and hated in some circles) for my views on that. I do believe it is an effective tool, and can often be a great part of a force on force scenario. But the followers vastly over rate it. Ridiculously so. To say that it is somehow a better option for smaller people is illogical and dangerous. The real better option for smaller people is, of course... to get bigger.

All physical endeavours have an optimal fitness type. Light people do great at marathons. Heavy people do better at power lifting. And, unfashionable as this may be...... muscular people have more potential in a fight, hence the weight categories in sport. It is a truth, albeit pretty unpalatable for some not so big folks. What fighter, large or small, would not be even better if he/she added another 30lbs of functional muscle?

This Shredder concept is great, but some of its' followers put people in danger through false promises of its effectiveness. I have used it to good effect, and I have used it on people who have not even noticed. This is not too different from just about every other tool in the tooolbox. Some people go down, others keep on coming, including against batons and CS gas too.

And the yarn about the cry baby drug dealer being shredded by a cop barely trained in it? Oh yes, that happened the same day I took down the local rugby team with a chi ball.
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PostSubject: Re: getting quite a few questions from policemen at the mo'... check this one   Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:49 pm

Quote :
Mr. Grannon,



I am 26 years old and am currently a police officer in West Palm Beach Florida. I do not know if you are familiar with this area, but it is strife with violent crime. West Palm Beach is one of the most violent cities in America. There are entirely way to many adolescent nobs here who all think their hard core gang bangers. They all think they are bad asses or are actually training in one form of the mixed martial arts.



I have recently come across your work and videos along with Bob Spour. I have to tell you, the past couple of days that I have been studying your philosophies, have already dramatically changed my view on training and fighting. I cant stop thinking about the common sense of it all. I have been studying different forms of martial arts for a number of years and am ex military. I have learned a lot but in all my training experience, I have never been taught these ideas and it is actually beginning to bother me.



I'm writing to you because when you speak of being a doorman, which I have to tell you people in the states have no concept of nor did I. I did not realize that your role was one of such importance and that the situations that you deal with are life threatening and that your position can actually deter crime. I was amazed when you said on a given night there would be 25 police officers and 5000 doormen. I would say that a majority of the "Bouncers" in the states are there merely for the purpose of letting the "pretty" people in and keeping every one else out. When you speak of specific encounters that you have had with people, I can immediately identify with them. Always being turned on and knowing your surroundings. Sometimes agreeing with people to get them out of your face or to deescalate a situation. Putting yourself in what appears to be a vulnerable situation but being completely fucking turned and and if that motherfucker even breathes wrong....That is my job. You seem to be a master at dealing with these situations.



I want to become better especially because of the enviroment that I work in and the people I deal with. My question is do you travel and put on seminars. I would love to come to one if you do. If not are there people of your caliber that are here in the states that you may be able to direct me too.



Your work is excellent. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

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VictorS

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PostSubject: Re: getting quite a few questions from policemen at the mo'... check this one   Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:02 pm

Hey Richie,

West Palm Beach is very about 30 to 40 minutes from where I live. I have an aquaintance who just joined the WPBPD within the last year. His name is Jason...
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PostSubject: Re: getting quite a few questions from policemen at the mo'... check this one   Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:20 pm

this guy is a David- get them together and train them! shall I give him your hagannah class details?
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VictorS

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PostSubject: Re: getting quite a few questions from policemen at the mo'... check this one   Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:46 pm

Sure. You can give him my email as well...
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PostSubject: Re: getting quite a few questions from policemen at the mo'... check this one   Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:06 am

A US LE bud posted this on another forum..GIST was fuck the pencilpusher's force continuum, do whatever is required so u go home back and kiss ur wife and baby
Quote :
It's so hard to comment on what the UK LE did right or wrong.
And as Universible( a SanFran SWAT doorkicker) said, the 'blessed' material taught at the acadmey is 'iffy' at best.

Sounds to me like he gave it his all. We all know that NOTHING is 100% in combat, the variables are endless............

That being said, using pain complaince against a large drunk is like pissing uphill. Alcohol can even insulate the 'brain housing group' from impact, resulting in a suspect that seems impervious to being knocked out ( I don't know the science behind this, but have seen it on the street ).

Before I learned to shred, I relied on carotid restiction, AKA the sleeper hold. No, it wasn't the blessed technique, and in fact we are forbidden from using it. Screw that, I go home at the end of the shift, and I don't give a fat rat's ass what some ex-cop buerocrat thinks I need to do or not.

The technique doesn't rely on pain, and worked well every time I used it.
It's all a matter of how the report was written Rolling Eyes
'While I was attempting to subue the suspect and we were wrestleing on the ground, he began to violently thrash his head, and attempted to strike me in the face with his forhead. In order to protect his neck and my face
I wrapped my arm around his neck and shoulder area and held him tight to my chest untill my backup arrived / he became fatiqued and compliant."

Haven't had to use it since June of '06. Hhmmm......... what is that? Oh yeah, that's when I met Rich.

Rick
Quote:
"...In order to protect his neck and my face
I wrapped my arm around his neck and shoulder area and held him tight to my chest untill my backup arrived / he became fatiqued and compliant."
Hmmm, so u held him tight to ur bosoms til he got tired and went to sleep Shocked , great maternal instinct Rick ! Cool
W
"shouldn't you be studying or something????"

It's summer,school is out so the only thing I'm studying is how to be a mack pimp cool
W
Gahahahhahahahhaha! Good one Warren and Rick Very Happy
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www.senshido.net

Hmmm Richie, sounds like ur "mauling" concept has LE defensive tactical applications where the psychological as well as physical ferocity would force perp into prey mentality and defensive mode and allow LE to do quick neck control takedown, plant a knee to perp's back of neck while partner puts the restraints on..Maybe u might make a quickvidclip or lowlevel mauling to force compliance on a resisting suspect for LE forum members..and eventually a DVD?
W
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PostSubject: Re: getting quite a few questions from policemen at the mo'... check this one   Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:23 am

well i think most LEs in UK might shy away from being seen to be" slapping" people? I'll go ask Bri and co on the SP forum...

thanks for asking the question War, and say thanks to your US LE mate too for us Very Happy very good of him tot ake the time.
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PostSubject: Re: getting quite a few questions from policemen at the mo'... check this one   Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:13 am

good news,yeah, police can slap/pam strike folk in UK but still got to be careful with how it looks to witnesses Cool
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PostSubject: Re: getting quite a few questions from policemen at the mo'... check this one   Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:33 pm

Quote :
Hello Richie,

I am a police response officer in London and, unrelated to the knife crime issue, I just wanted to let you know that I successfully, and surprisingly easily, used half of a head rip on a 'client' the other day. A 6' 3" Somalian lad resisting arrest and generally acting like a prat. As a martial arts obsessive like yourself, I've studied with great interest your clinchwork discs, of Bob and you, and Ed's clinchwork disc, and did a fair bit of solo practice on bags and using some solo drills I created, having failed to find a willing training partner. Anyway, I was on one arm, and a colleague on his other arm and we were struggling to take the guy down, so i grabbed his head a-la-Bob and took him to the ground, smoothly and easily. It worked very nicely. And the guy was then face down, in perfect position for cuffing up.

Not exactly Home Office approved, but hey.
Thanks mate.

I would like to comment on your excellent comment re the knife crime, but I'm not sure where to start, so won't for the moment.

Just got this Very Happy Im chuffing made up!

I do think the head control is the best way to get a large non compliant "client" on the deck
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PostSubject: Re: getting quite a few questions from policemen at the mo'... check this one   Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:54 pm

follow up email

Quote :
One thing about police arresting someone is that the other guy generally doesn't want to actually fight police - but usually only to passively resist, with perhaps some waving around of his arms. You should be ready for them to give you the big mama or reach for a knife, but generally they don't. Clearly that affects how you deal with them. also, if there are two or more of us trying to restrain one guy, your techniques often don't work because the officers are almost working against each other. the guy can't move to escape the pain you're inflicting because the other officers are trying to force him in a different direction.

And you are quite right that slapping is Home Office approved. Mind you, so is punching and the front kick. Of course, you can use any level of force as long as you can justify it, which mainly means that you have to write it up correctly in your statement. The job will hang you out to dry however, if it can.

i think the head control is a surprise to them, not being something that most people expect.

anyone in the milton keynes area up for training clinching and head control techniques with this chap gents?
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