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Intelligent Self Protection Solutions: Combative Psychology and Street Applied Martial Arts
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 You like your teeth son?Bish Bosh!

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Join date : 2010-01-02
Age : 35
Location : north wales

PostSubject: You like your teeth son?Bish Bosh!   Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:49 pm

Afternoon all.Hitting first,the pre-emptive strike,dry-gulching someone.Couldnt agree more with it, but does anyone know what exactly the law says?And how do you know?


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Age : 52
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PostSubject: Re: You like your teeth son?Bish Bosh!   Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:25 pm

not wanting to say what you already know but i'd almost assume that the law
is against it. part of the thriving fence mentality--another assumption on my part but
probably fairly safe, is to gather the law back in your corner [to use a boxing metaphor].

the theatrics of [given time] hands in the opened position, that "don't touch me/don't start"
line that removes the grey for onlookers and attackers, that one time warning snappy shove
for range and clarity of situation...all those things reak of gaining public approval. there's
probably room for saying--truthfully, "i felt threatened when he walked quickly towards me
yelling with clenched fists" as a means of defending oneself agains scrutiny but one probably
would be forced to defend oneself against such scrutiny.

that said, there's something to be said with not allowing for anything in the way of a slow
build up. there's alot of problems involved in taking agressive body language and going through
the alpha process slowly. in that clip of Richie's--the telly clip, where he's just immediately
and very agressively--with some hint of forward, saying "don't f'king start" takes the learning
curve into warp drive. no more slinking up until it's comfy. alot of RBSD classes go on with
dialogue for ages [slightly digressing, but not much]...this reaks of apprehension and lack of
substance on the part of the defender. how about being able to say leave me alone, and don't
even touch me. that sort of script still is much safer for good reason. another really good one,
i'm going that way, don't follow me. this is golden because now you've given an alpha warning
but a court trial soft gesture that smells of safety/retreat posturing.

it's obviously a high wire act. if the law favored pre'emptives, we'd know about it already. what
the non-fighting lawyers and flaccid desk jockeys fear is the theory of people going around nailing
people and claiming pre'emptive. it's also a testiment to the non working class [sorry] that things
can be said and not meant. i remember working class england as a tean. unannounced punches.
if someone said something, it was going to happen. if an insult was hurled, a fight more than likely
ensued. when i got to the middle class US neighborhood where my dad lived, people could say
anything and it meant nothing. alot of hot air and no solid hits. trash talking. promises of fights the
next day and claims to watch one's back, wonder pre'emptives are so misunderstood, their
opponents come from the safety of the white collar class. the element of realism is lost to theory
and not drawn from practical. i'm not a classist as such...i just understand that this is what was
happening regarding that subject. there will always be disconnects. this is, i believe, where this one
comes from.

updated/edited--quoted from UK law

"Self-Defence and the Courts
If an individual is prosecuted after having acted, or having claimed to act, in self-defence the courts will apply the following test:
Was the force used by the individual reasonable in the circumstances as he or she believed them to be?
The jury will have to answer this question based on the facts as the individual saw them when he acted as he did. A person is entitled to use reasonable force to protect themselves, members of their family or even a complete stranger if they genuinely believe that they are in danger or are the victim of an unlawful act, such as an assault. An individual may even take what is known as a pre-emptive strike if they honestly believe that the circumstances demand it. This means that a person can use force if they believe that there is a threat of imminent violence if they do not act first.

What if Someone Makes a Mistake?
The law of self-defence can even excuse an assault, or a death, when the individual was wrong in their belief that they had to act in the way they did - when there was never any real danger. If the person genuinely believed they were acting in self-defence that can be enough. However, if the only reason the person got it wrong was because they were drunk they are unlikely to succeed in using this as a defence.

The law as it stands offers very wide protection to those individuals who use violence to protect themselves or others. Such is the protection that an act which could otherwise have constituted a very serious offence becomes lawful. Further, it is the stated intention of the CPS that individuals who act in this way should not even find themselves in court. "

bold added

USA edited answer according to article that is written by a known martial artist/bouncer intimate
with the law--as stated at the end:

"Most martial artists get it all wrong when it comes to self defense. They think they can wait for someone to attack them and deftly handle that attack by using one of the many techniques they have been taught to do at their dojo, techniques that work so well in practice but in reality will most likely not work anywhere near as well.

The reason these techniques don't work is because dojo fighting and real fighting are two completely different things. The arenas are different, the participants are different and most important of all, you are different.

Live situations are vastly more pressurised and dangerous affairs and they contain many more variables than one can hope to replicate in the dojo, which is why, when it comes to street self defense, it pays to keep things as simple as possible.

In fact, I'll go one further and say that it pays even more to pre-empt an opponents attack with one of your own. Hit them before they hit you in other wards.

And before we go any further here, I know what you're thinking: What about the law? Won't I get prosecuted for initiating an attack? The short answer to that is no, not usually. The law these days is very open to the concept of pre-emptive attack, as long as you can show that an attack on your person was indeed imminent. Generally, if you can show that you tried to calm the situation with dialogue and did all you could to dissuade an opponent from persisting with their aggression, then you should be okay in the eyes of the law.

At the end of the day, it is extremely unwise to wait for someone to attack you before you put up a defense. When you allow an attack to happen you not only loose control of the situation (because you have given your attacker the advantage) but you will also find it very difficult to defend once things kick off. I know this from experience in bouncing. You'll end up badly beaten up or rolling around the floor with the possibility of your opponents mates showing up to help kick your head in.

In a street self defense situation it is much easier to strike your opponent and then make your escape if possible. At the very least, taking the initiative will allow you to put in a few more strikes to finish an opponent while they are still dazed from the first strike. But as I say, it's always best to run from the situation if at all possible. Why hang around to attract more hassle?

Your pre-emptive strike should be one which you are comfortable with and well practiced in. My preference is the right hook or the right cross to the jaw, both of which will knock an opponent out if done correctly. At the very least it will daze them enough for me to run.

To give yourself a further advantage, ask your opponent a question before you hit him. "How's your mother doing?" or something along those lines will do. The idea is to engage their brain and distract them from what is coming next, which is your strike to their jaw or slap to the face, whatever you wish to use.

Whatever technique you choose, make sure you are well practiced in it. Spend a lot of time just honing that one technique and getting it right so you will have the power to knock an opponent down when the time comes.

You have no reason to wait to be attacked if that attack is inevitable. Take the initiative and get in a well-timed pre-emptive strike, then dart away in the confusion.

In a street self defense situation, the pre-emptive strike is usually the wisest choice, certainly against waiting to be attacked it is anyway.

Neal Martin is an ex-bouncer and highly experienced martial artist with many years of training under his belt. He also publishes the popular Urban Samurai blog. Join his e-mail list today to receive some great free gifts, including his authoritative e-books on self defense and mind training for martial artists."

chicken pot, chicken pot, chicken pot pie

-the village idiot
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Posts : 2
Join date : 2010-01-02
Age : 35
Location : north wales

PostSubject: Re: You like your teeth son?Bish Bosh!   Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:52 am

Well thanks alot for your anwer and info mate.Very helpfull and encouraging to know the law is pretty much on your side!
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