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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:54 am

nice one Maija, rep your bloodline innit, er... "blud"

(yes, RDJ accent is a bit dodge in sherlock holmes, you is right, the advert wasnt too bad, but bits of the film he slid sideways)

deepak chopra said there was a study done with eskimos where they got them eating "healthy balanced diet" by western standards, he said it made them sick, mooody, gave them bad breath and bad teeth... this is deepak though... I like his work a lot but a font of cast iron, critically thought, rigourous truth he is not, so, dunno... just thought i would report

every time I have altered diet I have felt the cold, the other thing with physically active men is if you starve them of fats (whether those be good or bad) some studies have shown it can lead to depression

I know that eating like a bodybuilder makes me feel anxious and my body dont agree with it...so... spew that one

I think I agree with the crux of what RichB says that your body can get by better than dieticians make out, just not that protein isnt essential to big muscle gains


Cozmo, I thought today something else I do in the gym that some people see as weird is I start heavy and go lighter as I go on (with in a set) Im pretty fussy with form too... and I almost never strain

I think thats the martial arts influence on both counts

shouldt (by typical bodybuilding wisdom) make me big but it does

genetics again? has a hell of a lot to do with it, my bloodlines are physically fit, competitve, manual labourers, accomplished sports folk on both sides... thank god or I would turn into jabba the mutha fussin hutt

"would you like highly processed, over salted, worthless carbs with your meal sir?"

"yes please love"

pirat
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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:31 am

Quote :
Wrote a while back about my natural body builder friend who was veggie. As far as I know, he got all his protein from eggs and baked beans, no shakes. Not sure if he even drank milk .....

not to split hairs but if he eats chicken foetus he aint a veggie, unless hes the same brand of veggie "who eats a bit of fish" Razz

I can believe you can get all the protein you'd need from eggs - which are a great source, but if eggs were your only source you'd have to eat a hell of a lot of them over a period of say a training month right?

there are 6.5 g of protein in one large egg... if he is between 80 or 90 kg he needs at least 150 g a day

thats 23 eggs per day

roughly 1380 eggs a month

Quote :
•Most beans (black, pinto, lentils, etc) about 7-10 grams protein per half cup of cooked beans
•Soy beans, ½ cup cooked – 14 grams protein

or 5 cupfuls of beans a day, 150cups a month

thats a lot of eggs and beans laaa!


if he farts, whole species will be wiped out Razz bom
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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:30 pm

Not much time to post, but I'm not going to argue for the pilon stuff. People lie for money, and I can't tell how the body actually works from a cuckoo clock. Now, training and foods... It's probably a good idea to eat more energy than you spend. Laughing provided you do that, I think strength reflects how hard you train, everything else being mostly peripheral.

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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:34 pm

we wobt be catching you choking down a tasteless dry turkey breast post workout then RichB ? Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:21 pm

Nope. But a tasty piece of turkey breast with lots of gravy perhaps. Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:31 am

I have a bad habit of abandoning all arguments by default unless I know and have verified in triplicate, and can prove every single last detail about why I'm right. So I reflexively abandoned this one too.

Not that I KNOW anything that permits any degree of certainty, but having had time to read over the thread properly instead of the initial very rough skim, it seems my anti-midas touch of expertly creating misunderstanding is as good as always.

The post was a general rant against all the obsessive micromanagment bullshit about stuff that looks like it might give juuuuuuust the advantage an athlete competing at the edge of performance would need to barely nudge him past the competiton.

Training methods, diets, supplements or whatever.

Not just in terms of training but general life. Despite the panicky "do this, do that, or else." from all sides, it seems that unless your diet and lifestyle is completely out of whack, you don't need to do much more than half an honest effort to do all right. Unless you're climbing the proverbial mount everest of performance. Then you might need every single milimeter of an edge you can get. but is that worth anything unless you've gone to the very end of your normal range of performance? I doubt it.

Almost like spending all your time and money on fine-tuning the aerodynamics of an old beat-up pickup truck instead of at least getting the MAJOR things such as a strong engine in there. Aerodynamics matter, but that kind of stuff is for squeezing that last piece of performance out of the tube.

We train because we need an advantage, not because it makes us superheroes. No matter how good we get, we're still made of meat so we need that advantage. But the day I find myself staring at THAT small margins and striving for an advantage, I'll sow up my clothes with armor and carry the best and most useful weapons I can find. And either sneak around like a really paranoid ninja or group up and move with a bunch of other violent guys at all times. Laughably over the top except for the true shitholes of the world.

So for the purpose of powering an effective beating. How strong is strong enough?

If a normally eating individual can be strong and healthy ENOUGH without going down that crazy obsessive path just doing honest common-sense stuff. Then that's good enough for me. So when a smoking beer-guzzling, pizza eating but physically rigorously active guy can be strong and healthy enough to qualify as a tough-ass mofo, then isn't a healthy normal lifestyle more than sufficient, provided that we TRAIN?

Genetics aside, as we can't exactly pop by at the doctor's office and have our genes changed. All things being equal, training seems to be the only factor that matters in the end. All that fancy stuff that sells seems unnecessary, except for getting that last bit of "edge" that lifestyle competitive athletes seek. All the supplements, pills and powders. Protein is the bread and butter of supplements. And the thing that damn near everyone who trains for strength seem to do, so if extra protein is a waste of time and money, it's definitely something to rant about.

I had some reservations about linking to a page of AD copy. Well-founded it seems. It was the first and best page I could google up. I only skimmed it. As mentioned I tend to just abandon arguments as worthless hopeless hassle. But when I had opportunity to give the thread a proper read, I realize that I've got some splainin' to do. Because I wasn't saying or getting through with what I thought I was saying by a longshot.

Never meant ZERO protein, Never meant vegetarianism, or even actual hard-core bodybuilding as such either.

The AD-copy, gives an impression that they claim protein AT ALL is bullshit. I didn't read that, I read the e-book. I thought I'd probably read it wrong or remembered it wrong and thought, another con, oh well. But I had a small feeling we were talking about entirely different things here. It said roughly that as long as you eat a normal average protein-containing diet, that's all you need. And that the supplements and huge amounts of EXTRA protein are just a waste of time and money with no studies backing up that it causes more muscle gain than following a normal diet.

No need for magic beans and living with wild grizzly bears or anything. Just eat until you're full and use your body to the level you wish to be able to consistently perform. And as if by magic, it tries to adapt.

It makes sense to me. I wish I actually understood the biochemistry behind all of this so I could actually KNOW instead of "sort-of-believe" but unless they've cherry-picked their studies, and twisted and distorted the interpretation utterly. It doesn't look like protein is all it's cracked up to be in relation to building muscle. And it would account for the lumberjack type of strong guys too. Everything being normal except that they work damn hard.

Can't post the whole thing here, but a final summary should be ok. Looking at their actual argument instead of ad copy and other people's protein myths, are they really lying? Are they wrong?

Quote :
Conclusions

When you look at all the available research, instead of one single study
you begin to see the big picture. Realistically, you can expect to gain between 2
to 5 pounds of lean mass in 2 to 4 months by working out. There is evidence to
suggest that you might be able to gain about 7 pounds of muscle by working
out and upping your calorie intake by 2000 calories. Of course, you could get
the exact same result by taking creatine, without any potential for gaining body
fat.

These results lead me to say that protein still has a role in everyone's nutrition
plan, and is an essential nutrient that is obviously important for building and
repairing muscles. In fact, from my understanding of the research I think it
makes sense to try and consume SLIGHTLY ABOVE the recommended
amounts, aiming for around 70-120 grams of protein per day, depending on
your body weight and current calorie intake. I suggest bigger men aim for the
upper end of this scale, and women aim for the lower end of this scale.

But despite all the hype I just don't think we need to be paying good money for
massive amounts of protein powder, jumbo-sized packages of chicken breasts
or consuming 6 dozen eggs per week. Nor do I think we need to be obsessing
over eating our protein right after our workouts, if the amount we get in our
diets will serve our purposes just fine.

After all, gyms around the nations are full of young men who regularly consume
thousands of dollars worth of protein supplements. Take a look at the ones who
aren’t secretly on steroids (you probably know who they are) are they really any
bigger than they were two months ago? For that matter even 2 years ago?
Professional bodybuilders regularly consume massive amounts of protein and
are on doses of steroids so high they would stop a horse’s heart, but they are
extremely happy if they are able to put on 10 pounds of muscle over an entire
year. This is a great reminder that even when using steroids muscle growth is a
slow process.

Finally, look at your own progress. Have your muscle gains exploded since you
started counting the grams of protein you eat? My guess is probably not.
In fact, your greatest gains in muscle mass probably occurred when you first
started lifting weights. When you didn’t even care about how much or type of
protein went into your body. You probably ate when you were hungry, lifted
when you needed to, and your muscles grew like a weed.

The bottom line is as long as you consistently consume an adequate amount of
protein on a regular basis, whether its 1 large serving or 5 to 6 small servings
per day, you will have all the protein you need for your muscles to grow.
It’s important to note that I am not condemning protein supplements. I’m
talking about ALL sources of protein. Whether it’s a chocolate flavored whey
protein shake or a skinless chicken breast, neither one seems to be overly
effective at causing you to build massive amounts of muscle mass.

The super massive amounts of protein that bodybuilders eat might work in
conjunction with steroid use, but no scientists have been able to prove it in a
properly conducted research study. Safety concerns and ethical issues prohibit
research on people taking mega-doses of illegal anabolic steroids, so no
scientist on earth can actually tell you what is going on in the bodies of those
300 pound behemoths you see in bodybuilding contests and on the cover of
‘fitness’ magazines.

Furthermore, the research that supports the necessity of post-workout protein
just isn’t there yet. Acute research tends to show an improvement in markers of
protein synthesis, but this has not yet translated into measureable
improvements in muscle mass.

Right now, I feel confident in saying ‘if you want to build muscle, workout and
possibly take your creatine’, but that’s about it. I cannot find a scientifically
valid reason to tell you to take protein after your workouts nor can I find a
reason to eat any more than 70-120 grams of protein in a 24-hour period.
The good news is that this means that if you are interested in gaining muscle,
you can concentrate on the real hero behind your muscle gaining, and that is
you and your workouts. The amount of protein you eat should not concern you
any longer.

Outside of your height and genetics it is the quality of your workouts that will
determine how much muscle you are able to add and keep on your body.


My Best Recommendation

Probably the very best recommendations I can give you are to eat a variety of
protein containing foods. As long as you are eating meals with a wide variety of
foods you should be able to reach the 70-120 gram target very easily (the
average intake in North America is already around 90 grams).


What I DO NOT Recommend

Please note that I have not given recommendations as a percentage of your daily
calories or as a percentage of your body weight. This is because neither of these
equations have ever made any sense to me.

Take for instance, the idea of eating 1 gram of protein per pound of body
weight. If a man weighs 180 pounds at 15% body fat when you exclude the
weight of his fat he actually has 153 pounds of lean mass. If he eats 180 grams
of protein, then he is actually eating 1.17 grams per pound lean body mass
assuming your fat cells do not need any measurable amounts of protein.

Now if over the next year or two this particular man happens to gain weight at a
rate of 20 pounds per year (difficult, but not impossible to do) then after two
years he would weigh 220 pounds. So now he should be eating 220 grams of
protein per day by this logic.

But what if the weight he gained was entirely body fat? He would be 220
pounds with approx 30% body fat and would still have 153 pounds of LEAN
mass. So now he is eating 1.43 grams of protein per pound of lean body mass.

It doesn’t make sense that his protein requirements increased by 40 grams per
day if the only thing that changed was the amount of fat on his body.

Another example of a confusing protein recommendation is eating a certain
percentage of your calories as protein. If a person who eats 2000 calories
follows the recommendation of eating 15% of their calories as protein this would
mean they would eat 300 calories from protein, or about 75 grams of protein
(each gram of protein contains approximately 4 calories).

Now if this same person starts to eat 4000 calories per day, and still follows the
recommendation of eating 15% of calories from protein they are now eating 150
grams of protein per day. Again, I see no logical reason why doubling your
calorie intake would cause a need for a doubling of protein intake.


Final thoughts on Protein

For the purpose of building muscle mass I think the goal should be a general
recommendation of 70-120 grams of protein per day, and this should be an
average intake. As long as you average around 70-120 grams per day you could
be lower on some days and slightly higher on others, but muscle growth will
still occur.

There is no magic to the strict time period of 24 hours. We live our lives in 24
hour chunks out of convenience with the sun’s schedule, but we tend to
assume our nutritional and metabolic needs work this way as well, but this
isn’t the case. There is no reason to stress over the amount of protein you have
eaten over a 24 hour period, some days you’ll be a bit higher, some days you’ll
be a bit lower, it’s the average over weeks and months that matters not hours
and days.

Finally, since the average protein intake in North America is roughly 90 grams
per day the vast majority of us are already eating enough protein to support
muscle growth. Therefore, we don’t need to obsess over our protein intake the
way fitness magazines and nutrition experts suggest we should.

Based on all of this research it seems clear to me that there is a very good
chance that you don’t need to change anything in your diet and can enjoy the
foods you like knowing that you are not hindering your muscle growth.

You don’t need to worry about eating a certain proportion of your diet as
protein, or use special protein sources every couple of hours. In fact, I would
even argue that you do not have to think of foods as protein containing and
non-protein containing foods. Eggs contain an average of 6 grams of protein
and are largely considered to be a protein food. A piece of bread contains
roughly 5 grams of protein and is NOT considered a protein food.

This type of obsessive compulsive eating and extreme focus on the individual nutrients
contained within foods is simply not required in order to increase your muscle
mass.

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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:17 am

well first thing to say is the thread is called frequent bodybuilding which provides a specific context, even though the overall forum is about teh str333tfightz.... so to talk about the right diet needed for fighting as opposed to bodybuilding is a bit confused

that aside though

how laughably pallid is the main actual message compared to his sales copy

so the thrust and the USP of his product is

"you dont need as much protein as they people selling protein say you do"

wow! really?


he is hanged by his the rope of his own sales copy on this one im afraid


AND as a side point, if he is talking about competitive body builders buying big packs of chicken and he is saying that is NOT necessary, I would love to read his outline of a cutting diet- because when you cut the carbs THE OVERALL CALORIES MUST COME FROM SOMEWHERE!!! if not from protein to prevent the catabolism that is inevtibale when a physcially active human suddenly (over a period of 2 months is "sudden") drops their caloric intake

Now the guy says he has been bodybuilding for over 20 years there is just no way he doesnt know that, no chance.

I think this is disingenous, intellectually dishonest, prevarication to cloud an issue and make a point (and a buck) and in other words your honour "bullshit".

RichB you ask if he's "lying"? ... well he is deffo sleeping with her sister "misrepresenting the truth"

for bodybuilding and its specfic requirements, low carbs high protein is the only way, he knows this. He recommends 120g a day "if you are at the bigger end of the scale"- I am 220 lbs does that make me at the bigger end of the scale??

lets be kind to him and assume yes, ok so thats 120g for me a day.... which is just 4 chicken breasts a day... which is 680 calories


here is the kicker, the bit that the "protein myth" brigade all seem to turn a blind eye to:

given that a man of my size needs 2500 cals a day to maintain weight (not grow, maintain)

where the hell is the other 1820 calories supposed to come from if not from protein?

muffins?

fruit and veg?

ice cream?



I defy anyone of 220lb to bodybuild competitively on just 4 chicken breasts worth of protein a day- where are all your other calories coming from?


I dont think he is lying in the extract you provided RIch B, but he's sailing pretty close to the wind... and his sales copy writer DOES lie.
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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:53 am

As mentioned, I've got an uncanny ability to create misunderstanding. Upon seeing the gay vegans and all that I just thought "fuck it, why bother" and wrote a quick reply to the effect of "yep, people suck, moving on." Regarding the discussion as hopelessly FUBAR. Though I had to get back in it because in the back of my mind I knew I didn't listen to what they were saying just because they said something I liked to hear, but because they were to be able to argue their point. Simply put, they're claiming something definite and falsifiable, citing sources. And just as much, what they're saying isn't unreasonable at all, though it could save you a lot of money and hassle.

Again. If looking at the actual argument and not the ad copy. The issue was always about the extra high amount of protein. I did point that out in the previous post. And as you say, that is boring, but that doesn't make it untrue.

Quote :
he is hanged by his the rope of his own sales copy on this one im afraid

To say that the argument is invalid because an ad copy is exaggerated is simply wrong. You may have a distaste for the ad copy, but it is the actual argument that matters.

Posting a link to an ad copy instead of taking the time to give it an accurate representation was a mistake on my cape. Though it was a nonspecific rant and it was only mentioned in passing. Quality-checking my sources wasn't as much the issue as pointing a finger in a direction, stating "it came from over there."

Quote :
if he is talking about competitive body builders buying big packs of chicken and he is saying that is NOT necessary, I would love to read his outline of a cutting diet- because when you cut the carbs THE OVERALL CALORIES MUST COME FROM SOMEWHERE!!! if not from protein to prevent the catabolism that is inevtibale when a physcially active human suddenly (over a period of 2 months is "sudden") drops their caloric intake

here is the kicker, the bit that the "protein myth" brigade all seem to turn a blind eye to:

given that a man of my size needs 2500 cals a day to maintain weight (not grow, maintain)

where the hell is the other 1820 calories supposed to come from if not from protein?

Protein in relation to muscle growth is not about the calories, it is about the amino acids. The argument is that it contains enough amino acids to cover muscle growth, not that 120 grams of protein covers the body's energy needs in terms of calories.

Given that there are only three real sources of calories; fat, protein and carbs. If you cut two of those, then obviously you will need to compensate for that with the one remaining nutrient to still end up with the necessary amount of calories, for your energy needs.

There is nothing unique about the caloric value of protein that makes the energy do something that caloric energy value from fat or carbs doesn't do. If calories was all that mattered, you could get all of it from fat, or all of it from carbs, and still have your needs satisfied for long term muscle gain. Of course it doesn't work that way. We both agree on that.

Assuming that you do eat your full 2500 calories a day. It is the amino acid content of the protein that matters. And in that context, he argues that a rough 120 grams a day is as much as you need. The average protein consumption level already being at 90 grams, that translates to just a little more meat on your plate a day.


Quote :
He recommends 120g a day "if you are at the bigger end of the scale"- I am 220 lbs does that make me at the bigger end of the scale??

lets be kind to him and assume yes, ok so thats 120g for me a day.... which is just 4 chicken breasts a day...

I defy anyone of 220lb to bodybuild competitively on just 4 chicken breasts worth of protein a day

Quoting Brad Pilon:

Quote :
If we look at our current recommendation of 70‐120 grams of protein per day (on
average) we see that we could meet the needs of a 220 pound man (100 kg*1.2 g
protein =120 grams per day) and the needs of a 110 pound woman (50 kg*1.4
grams of protein = 70 grams of protein per day) while still falling within the ranges
of what scientists consider to be ‘high’ protein.

"We see that..." [conclusion]

And how do we do that? How does he back up his statement?

Studies and arguments.

This one is a good start. Quoting Brad Pilon:

Quote :
Testosterone and Muscle Growth Studies

One of the most interesting studies showing the effect of working out without
any extra protein was published back in 1996. 43 men who were experienced
weight lifters took part in research that involved exercise and weekly injections
of anabolic steroids (testosterone enanthate) for 10 weeks [Bhasin S, 1996].
The men in the study were divided into 4 groups; working out or not working
out, and receiving weekly steroid injections or not receiving them.

* Group 1: NO EXERCISE + NO STERIODS
* Group 2: EXERCISE + NO STERIODS
* Group 3: NO EXERCISE + WEEKLY STEROID INJECTION
* Group 4: EXERCISE + WEEKLY STEROID INJECTION.

It is probably no surprise that after 10 weeks of lifting weights 3 times per
week, the group that was receiving the steroid injections gained a very
impressive amount of muscle (over 13 pounds!).

It is also not surprising that Group 2, (the group who were working out but
didn’t get any steroids) also increased their muscle mass, packing on almost 4.5
pounds of muscle in only ten weeks.

What was surprising is that the men who were injected with steroids and then
sat around doing nothing for 10 weeks amazingly saw an increase in lean mass
that exceeded what the guys working out without steroids gained. Imagine
gaining over 6 pounds of lean mass just by sitting around on your couch all day
not lifting a finger!

Obviously, the group who did not receive any steroids and didn't workout did
not see any change in their lean mass.


So what does a study on steroids have to do with protein? Well, all four groups
were on the same diet. They were all consuming about 0.7 grams of protein per
pound of body weight (roughly 120 grams of protein per day) and about 16
Calories per pound of body weight.

This research clearly shows that approximately 120 grams of protein per day
was enough for a group of men taking steroids and lifting weights to gain 13.5
pounds of lean mass! Even in their steroid-heightened anabolic state, 120
grams was enough to supply all of the necessary building blocks for a 13.5-
pound gain in lean mass.


Interestingly, it was also the same amount of protein that Group 2 the exercise–
only group ate to gain 4.5 pounds of lean mass. So even though we know that
these men consumed enough protein to provide for a 13.5-pound increase in
lean mass, they only saw a third of this increase. The difference was obviously
due to the anabolic effects of the steroids and NOT due to the protein intake
.

The link to that study is here: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/335/1/1

Another one:

Quote :
In 2005, a similar research paper was published examining the connection
between testosterone and muscle growth. 52 men in their sixties received
varying doses of the anabolic steroid testosterone enanthate in doses ranging
from 25 mg, 50 mg, 125 mg, 300 mg and 600 mg weekly for 20 weeks [Bhasin
S, 2005].

During this time frame, the men were instructed to avoid any resistance
training or heavy endurance exercise.
The men ate about 90 to 110 grams of protein per day and about 2,400 to
2,700 Calories per day.

At the end of the 20 weeks, without working out or eating massive amounts of
protein, these men put on a very impressive amount of fat-free mass. The group
getting the highest dose of testosterone gained 16 pounds of fat free mass in 20
weeks without any exercise. Even the group getting 125 mg of testosterone per
day gained 9.5 pounds of fat free mass in 5 months.

Therefore, in these studies on steroids, as long as testosterone levels are
elevated, men can gain muscle while eating typical amounts of protein.
In both of these studies, slightly above average protein intake in the 70-120
gram range (depending on bodyweight) was enough to allow for very large
increases in lean mass
.

Here is a link that that study: http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/91/8/3024

Quoting Brad Pilon on another study:

Quote :
At this point you might be thinking, “But these guys were on steroids!” Well
there is also research that shows muscle growth can occur without eating extra
protein and that does not involve taking steroids.

From these studies we can see that slightly above average protein intake in the 70‐120 gram range was
enough to provide the building blocks needed for very large increases in lean mass.

Muscle Growth and Weight Training In Vegetarians

We can look at the research that explored the effect of resistance training on
vegetarians as another way to assess the need for protein. Not only do
vegetarians eat somewhat below average intakes of protein, they also obviously
do not eat any animal meat, which in the sports nutrition world are largely
considered to be the most “anabolic” of all protein sources.

In a study published in the scientific journal ‘Medicine Science, Sports and
Exercise’, 2 groups of people were asked to follow weight-training programs
[Burke DG, 2003].

Both groups followed the exact same high volume, heavy load resistance
training workout program for 8 full weeks.

The only difference between the groups was that one group consisted of people
who have all been vegetarians for at least the last 3 years of their lives. They
were either lacto-ovo (milk and eggs only) or even stricter forms of vegetarians.
The other group consisted of people who ate the traditional North American diet
consisting of all forms of meat.

The vegetarian group ate almost 450 less calories per day than the nonvegetarian
subjects, while the non-veggie group ate around 1.75 times more
protein than the veggie subjects (79 grams per day versus 138.5 grams per
day). Neither group took any form of post-workout supplement other than
creatine.

From there, the two groups were each divided in two again. This time with
people either taking creatine or not taking any form of supplement.
So the study design ended up looking like this:

* Group 1: VEGETERIAN + NO CREATINE
* Group 2: VEGETARIAN + CREATINE
* Group 3: NON-VEGETARIAN + NO CREATINE
* Group 4: NON-VEGETARIAN + CREATINE

By the end of this study all four groups had gained similar amounts of lean
mass (between roughly 2-5 pounds, the exact amount we would expect from a
resistance training program of this length). The only group that was
significantly different was the vegetarian plus creatine group, who gained
slightly more muscle than the non-vegetarian plus creatine group.

This research illustrates that muscle growth is possible without eating high
amounts of protein, and also suggests that once minimum protein (and calorie)
requirements are met, adding more protein and more calories does not seem to
increase the total amount of lean mass that is gained from a resistance training
program.


From this research we can see that while 79 grams of protein per day was
enough to allow for muscle growth, 138.5 grams of protein per day did not
promote any ADDITIONAL muscle growth. This evidence is in keeping with the
previous studies, in which 70-120 grams of protein was enough to allow for an
impressive amount of muscle growth.

Not as good as the last two links, but it does provide some details about the study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14600563

Now please. Forget the vegetarian angle. I never mentioned vegetarianism. I never intended vegetarianism. I am not a vegetarian and do not know any vegetarians. If there is a vegetarian "protein myth brigade" then this is a different protein myth brigade. Attacking the myth that you need extreme amounts of protein - specifically referring to the amino acids it contains - to build muscle. In particular that you need large amounts of extra protein. And all this again in terms of supplying amino acids. Not energy needs. If you refuse to eat carbs and fat for whatever reason - sane or insane - then you are obviously left with only protein to cover energy needs. That is a different matter.

If being "milk and eggs only" vegetarians makes them simply normal but hypocritical meat eaters, then so much the better. It gets that out of the way and allows us to focus on the fact that they ate a fairly typical amount of protein - Our 70 - 120 grams a day - The control group getting normal gains while the creatine assisted group showed there was capacity in that amount of protein for more muscle gain.

The most dramatic demonstration of this was in the first study I've quoted where the steroid assisted group gained 13,5 pounds of muscle from the 120 gram diet during the ten week study, while the normal group gained 4,5 pounds, a typical expected amount of gain. In other words, unless I've got this totally backwards, there was theoretically an unused capacity for about 9 pounds more muscle gain in the 120 gram diet in the normal weightlifting group in that time period if they had been biologically stimulated to access that potential.

Quoting Grannon:
Quote :
He recommends 120g a day "if you are at the bigger end of the scale"- I am 220 lbs does that make me at the bigger end of the scale??

lets be kind to him and assume yes, ok so thats 120g for me a day.... which is just 4 chicken breasts a day...

I defy anyone of 220lb to bodybuild competitively on just 4 chicken breasts worth of protein a day

I assume you were thinking in terms of calories and total daily energy intake, so I won't hold you to that part. But when thinking in terms of amino acids, which is what it's all about;

Quoting Pilon:
Quote :
If we look at our current recommendation of 70‐120 grams of protein per day (on
average) we see that we could meet the needs of a 220 pound man (100 kg*1.2 g
protein =120 grams per day) and the needs of a 110 pound woman (50 kg*1.4
grams of protein = 70 grams of protein per day) while still falling within the ranges
of what scientists consider to be ‘high’ protein.

Quoting Pilon on the first study quoted:
Quote :
So what does a study on steroids have to do with protein? Well, all four
groups were on the same diet. They were all consuming about 0.7 grams of
protein per pound of body weight (roughly 120 grams of protein per day) and
about 16 Calories per pound of body weight.

This research clearly shows that approximately 120 grams of protein per day
was enough for a group of men taking steroids and lifting weights to gain 13.5
pounds of lean mass! Even in their steroid-heightened anabolic state, 120
grams was enough to supply all of the necessary building blocks for a 13.5-
pound gain in lean mass.

Interestingly, it was also the same amount of protein that Group 2 the exercise–
only group ate to gain 4.5 pounds of lean mass. So even though we know that
these men consumed enough protein to provide for a 13.5-pound increase in
lean mass, they only saw a third of this increase. The difference was obviously
due to the anabolic effects of the steroids and NOT due to the protein intake.

In other words. Apparently it is possible to build all the muscle you need on that level of protein intake. Can you bodybuild competitively? If muscles and strength is all that matters, the answer has to be yes. If training with steroids can squeeze three times the muscle gain seen in normal training out of that same diet, you've got plenty of unused potential to go.

If the goal is absolutely minimal body-fat... well that's a whole other discussion. While I doubt eating a normal balanced diet would make you horribly obese, you should be able to win a lifting-competition, not necessarily a looking-competition.

Bodybuilders on that end of the field are essentially the male version of the skinny supermodel. Both do anything in their power to minimize body-fat. In the pictures, the guys would probably look a lot like the girls if they didn't have those muscles, and the girls would probably look a lot like the guys if they had those muscles.




They are both extremes. To me it looks downright pathological. Charicatures of what they are trying to portray.

(And it's all a bit gay, quite frankly)

Although there is certainly a lot more to the issue than the following, I assume the fundamental motivation for the girls - whether or not that is simply used to manipulate them - is that they want to be pretty. No problem with that. But they overshoot the mark to the point it begins to defeat the original purpose of the behavior, although every market has it's customers.

Same principle with the bodybuilders. In the simplest sense, you could say that strength is only your ability to generate kinetic energy. Now I'm sure they are truly fucking strong, but what is strength for? What purpose is strength subservient to? Hunting, fighting, killing, dominating, defending, the size being deterring. So to boil that down it's either for show, or for work.

Either you're scaring off or attracting someone using the visual effect, or it's violence or manual labor, using the ability to generate kinetic energy. That's basically what it's good for. Although there is nothing wrong about doing something solely for the enjoyment in doing it, I've made the assumption that in this group it is at least as much for a specific purpose as for enjoyment, if not more so. And if it isn't for lugging around a huge amount of furniture. It's probably for fighting better and to better handle being fought, as well as deterring people from wanting to fight in the first place.

Maybe it is as you say, a bit confused to talk about the right diet needed for fighting as opposed to bodybuilding. It wasn't really about that before protein stole the stage. But this is a forum where contexts are rarely followed slavishly and things generally relate back to fighting. If I saw a thread on dissociative identity disorder in the psychology section, I would assume it was related to supra states one way or another, and not exclusively specific to psychiatric treatment or some such thing. The analogy seems to be within reasonable limits from what I can tell. I could see that happening here without it being the least absurd. But it was never really about diets or anything in particular until protein stole the stage.

It was a rant. In general support of and to comment on the first posts of the thread.

The message was intended to be a general rejection of the dogmatic obsession with detail management of everything about diet and training, with the tone and attitude of a bar conversation. That you can't seem to trust "popular wisdom" these days. That from what I can tell, the sky won't fall on your head if you live a fairly normal lifestyle. That unless your diet and lifestyle is drastically out of whack, you'll generally have decent health and live a normal lifespan, and by just doing a few minor tweaks, you can take the slack out and actually do quite well. Without needing to go to the extremes "popular wisdom" dictates you absolutely must.

That in terms of weight training, the only truly important factor - assuming again that you're not starving yourself somehow - seems to be the training itself. Training, aided by testosterone and maybe creatine, as that seems to be the only legal supplement worth a damn. Most other things seem to be a waste of time, money and effort. Why bother with all that hassle if there is no need for it?

So if you're a man, eating "a man's breakfast," doing "a man's job" and eating "a man's dinner." Spending your time in a "testosterone filled environment" and you train hard; you'll probably get most of what's there to be gotten right there. Without all the expensive nonsense.

In short; you don't need to move to China and live in a mountain cave to be a Buddhist. Or join a monastery, buy a fancy robe, a necklace of anal-beads or do exotic rituals all day. Just fucking meditate.

Or in other words; just fucking train hard.

How? Your body tries to adapt to the conditions you subject it to. And if it isn't pushing you, you ramp it up until it does, and keep doing so as it becomes easier. Then you generally tend to move towards where you want to go.

Granted, that may be an oversimplification. But you can probably realize 90% of your potential that way - For the sake of argument, I don't believe there is a definite percentage on this - The last 10% are for the champions. It is as if those last 10% of performance get exponentially harder to squeeze out of the tube for every one you get. With the competition these days you'll probably need to dedicate your whole life to it. I assume it is beyond the scope of most of our interests.

I think that protein thing - the real one, not whatever the accursed ad copy may have given the impression of - is real, unless all the studies and interpretations of them they've done are fundamentally flawed. And I've only quoted a few (It wouldn't do to post the whole damn thing on the net). But the only thing I really tried to say in the first post was "I'm sick of dogma and it doesn't seem to matter much anyway, so why bother with it." Before finishing with bringing the rant a bit more back on topic by mentioning Pavel Tsatsouline. As he has talked about high intensity, low rep and frequent training.

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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:20 pm

Quote :
Simply put, they're claiming something definite and falsifiable, citing sources.

you mean "verifiable" not "falsifiable" mate Laughing

their point is actually pretty unremarkable

people can grow by training taking steroids and eating between 100 and 120 g of protein a day

pop quiz:

how many people know they regularly eat that much protein a day?

its 3 to 4 chicken breasts a day


by "normal" standards mate, certainly of the people I know, that is actually quite a lot





It was Pilon that said that "Bodybuilders" stocking up on protein were doing something unnecessary.

He didnt say "Powerlifters" or "Martial Artists" mate,

he said "Bodybuilders", and when you say "Bodybuilders" yes, Im afraid , whatever yours or my judgement of that sport might be in terms of sanity or sexuality, that implicit within that is people who want to keep bodyfat down and therefore will overeat protein, NOT because its going to magically make them bigger and bigger, but because it helps them avoid eating foods that increas their body fat

NOW I dont know a SINGLE BODYBUILDER who thinks that eating more and more protein in and off itself will make them bigger or stronger. Not one.

So

when Pilon says its "unnecessary" he is wrong. Its absolutely necessry for bodybuilders who are concerned about how they look.
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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:37 pm

I think there is a bit of projection here that is clouding the issue


what exactly do people think the "protein myth" is?

I accept and resonate with your rant that micro management of everything is annoying and leads to the all to frequent modern afflication: analysis paralysis

but really, just like martial arts, requirements depends on your objectives

do I need/want to eat more than 120g of protein a day? yes I do, Im a fat fucker naturally, Id rather get them cals from chicken breast than anything else when Im in a heavy training period... I mean I cant be wrong then

ironically thats my way OUT of analysis paralysis and micromanagement as a psychological strategy RichB

internal dialogue of hungry:
"what can I eat?"
"Not sure capitan"
"fuck it then, chicken?"
"cant be wrong with chicken capitan"
"engage "
"aye aye capitan"

cheers Im a simple being, I need simple orders cheers






Quote :
Quoting Grannon:
Quote:
He recommends 120g a day "if you are at the bigger end of the scale"- I am 220 lbs does that make me at the bigger end of the scale??

lets be kind to him and assume yes, ok so thats 120g for me a day.... which is just 4 chicken breasts a day...

I defy anyone of 220lb to bodybuild competitively on just 4 chicken breasts worth of protein a day


I assume you were thinking in terms of calories and total daily energy intake, so I won't hold you to that part. But when thinking in terms of amino acids, which is what it's all about;

teh Grannon waz tinking in terms of day to day reality

you cant just say "its all about amino acids" and extract the persons nutrition from day to day reality

when you say "its all about amino acids"- whats the "it" thats all about amino acids?

you mean protein synthesis creating muscle growth? or something else? coz, like you cant just take amino acids and grow... you need to eat protein... so... its not really all about amino acids is it? Razz
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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:10 pm

the only study that I realy thought remarkable was the first one RichB

now let me say up front I was still surprised that they acquired 13.5 lbs each of LEAN MUSCLE MASS, thats a lot in just 10 weeks, on a diet that would for me equate to 4 chicken breasts a day...

except when I read the study, it transpires they didnt:


1.what the study doesnt say and what anyone with a bit of experience will ask first is: how much did the lads weigh to begin with, how old were they, just how "experienced" were they, had they ever juiced before?

2. they were given 600 mg of testosterone ethanate a week!!! they werent tickling these chaps with a feather, (depending on the brand) thats a pretty hefty dose and if they have not juiced before the 13.5 lean mass starts to look quite reasonable

3. the amount of protein they were given was 1.5 grammes per kilogram of weight, I am 220lbs or 100kg, so that would be 150g of protein a day which would be 5 chicken breasts A DAY!! for me

this is not "average" or "normal" amounts of protein mate, certainly not in the uk, this is a high protein diet by any normal persons standard

so the experiement shows that guys eating a very protein rich diet, taking a good dose of juice and following a strict weights programme 3 days a week put on a significant amount of muscle over 10 weeks

no "protein myth" busted here Im afraid Razz
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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:43 pm

Quote Richie: "do I need/want to eat more than 120g of protein a day? yes I do, Im a fat fucker naturally, Id rather get them cals from chicken breast than anything else when Im in a heavy training period... I mean I cant be wrong then"

Not trying to be stupid here ... but why can't you go wrong with eating chicken breast?

Is it because when you do, you feel better, recover quicker, stay leaner? Or what?

There are plenty ripped and muscular road workers in India who probably eat nothing but chapatis and dahl and drink sweet chai, and plenty overweight, non manual working, Indians that eat plenty meat.

Why does butter make you fatter than chicken breast? If you worked out really hard, and ate a pack of butter, what would the calories 'do'? Would they go to fat, or rebuilding muscle?

How about bread, seeing as it is a pretty good source of protein?

What about read meat and all that yummy iron to help the whole oxygen uptake thing? Better than chicken? Sorry, not very scientific here .... rabbit

Isn't chicken really 'drying' in Chinese medicine .... is that a healthy thing for building muscle?

Don't have answers to any of the above, and not really the time to research. Just wondering out loud ....... scratch

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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:36 pm

Quote :
Not trying to be stupid here ... but why can't you go wrong with eating chicken breast?

Is it because when you do, you feel better, recover quicker, stay leaner? Or what?

all of the above, when consuming any form of lean white meat during a heavy training period- lean white meat only recovers muscle, doesnt contribute to acquisition of fat (you can get fat on anything, but its harder on tuna steaks than muffins)

Quote :
There are plenty ripped and muscular road workers in India who probably eat nothing but chapatis and dahl and drink sweet chai, and plenty overweight, non manual working, Indians that eat plenty meat.

let me adress your second point first: that people who eat a lot of meat can get very fat is undeniable, many vegetarians are noticeably slimmer - plenty of evidence to suggest that eating loads of meat is potentially lethal, I recommed it for people seeking to get big and strong, not for long term healthy lifestyle option

to your first point - you dont actually know what Indian road workers eat, and let me add, in the west the high protein option is ALWAYS the most expensive option, but if india is anything like thailand, its not so in the east where chicken and fish are very affordable

and to that I would add, dont confuse being "ripped" with being muscular or strong, we have the same looking chaps working the beaches and construvction sites in thailand- they are ripped but not muscular by bodybuilding standards

incidentally, I was blessed by a bhuddist monk today at temple, he commented on my muscularity and had a bit of a squeeze, but (typical of someone who trains) I had already checked out his bi's and tri's and the vasodilation in his forearms when he was giving me the blessing. Pretty impressive, he looked about 60. Former manual labourer or muay thai fighter? Dunno. But he certiainly doesnt eat any meat he is monk innit! But his bodyfat index is so low that he looks "ripped"

we all have 6 pack abs under there

even meth heads and crack heads look "ripped"


Quote :
Why does butter make you fatter than chicken breast? If you worked out really hard, and ate a pack of butter, what would the calories 'do'? Would they go to fat, or rebuilding muscle?

AAAAaaargh! affraid what??

hahahaha! Razz

How can liquified fat be used to rebuild muscle??

Look protein IS muscle.

Chicken breast is "pec". Chickens do 400 cable crossovers a day.
Chicken leg is "hams" and "glutes", they jump squat their bodyweight for 800 reps a day.

You are what you eat. Eat muscle, be muscular.

Eat butter, be jabba the hut... and have carrie fisher on a chain... not so bad...


So to put it bluntly, you cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Your body isnt a magic "transmogrifer" device. If you eat fat / fat inducing foods with high g.i., loads of processed "bad" carbs, sugar, salt etc you will be fat and your body cannot recover from a hard workout on that crap.

It will catabolise (body eats itself, opposite of metabolise)


Quote :
How about bread, seeing as it is a pretty good source of protein?


affraid bread is NOT a good source of protein!! Laughing

Bread is not a good source of anything, its junk, nobody needs it.

For anything.

But it is tasty.

Quote :
What about read meat and all that yummy iron to help the whole oxygen uptake thing? Better than chicken? Sorry, not very scientific here ....

Some people say red meat is better for weight gain, its more anabolic. Not an issue for me. Its a lot fatter too. Red meat animals, (cows, pigs, lambs) are not as active as white meat animals.

Quote :
Isn't chicken really 'drying' in Chinese medicine .... is that a healthy thing for building muscle?


Ive not heard that, but I know it will give you constipation in real life. Body building diets should include plenty of complex water rich carbs to combat that. A lot of people start the day with oatmeal and swear by it. It wont stop you from building muscle, but letting yourself get consistently constipated is defintely not healthy.

Wow, you make me feel like I know something about nutrition. pirat
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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:27 pm

Richard Grannon wrote:
Quote :
e]Why does butter make you fatter than chicken breast? If you worked out really hard, and ate a pack of butter, what would the calories 'do'? Would they go to fat, or rebuilding muscle?

AAAAaaargh! affraid what??

hahahaha! Razz

How can liquified fat be used to rebuild muscle??

Look protein IS muscle. pirat

sorry didn't mean to drop in and peek on a subject that is no longer
giving me goose-pimples, but, as you are both folks i respect i looked
in anyway to see where this Sleep topic was heading this week...
then i saw this... affraid Laughing

and new that's why i love you guys, but you can't have my beer Shocked
...kidding, sips all round Wink

p.s.
i think this is one of those subjects that the guys in the gym really
know, then science steps in to question everything and de'bunk,
and in the end...full circle, all the guys with giant bodies new how
they got there...quel suprise [sp?pommie that i are]

for the rest of us--balanced lean meals, add a meal if you lack the energy
...my humble 2p from being fixated on food for roughly 25 years Embarassed
just another meat head at the end of the day, but i've eaten just about all
the examples. and the best, to date, was when i was snarking turkey breast,
eating bananas, drinking coffee for energy...and drinking loads of fruit
juice--dabbling on occasion in some carbs but treating it like the devil i can't
do completely without. alot of energy came from the fruit which are sort of
carbs anyway. not prepared to eat like that anymore, but i can testify to
it's results.

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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:14 pm

fruit is not "sort of" carbs mr the muss, they deffo are carbs of the complex water rich variety Very Happy

my sister is a nutritionalist I'll see if I can get her to explain better than me
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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:37 pm

Richard Grannon wrote:
fruit is not "sort of" carbs mr the muss, they deffo are carbs of the complex water rich variety Very Happy

my sister is a nutritionalist I'll see if I can get her to explain better than me

ta mate...lemme-know
...quasi health teacher--me, i need to know Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:51 pm

I know what you are saying about you are what you eat, the genetic thing is just interesting to me, and food as fuel. I just read that it's the Nitrogen in protein that is key to building cells.
If I had a couple bywords for the food I consume, they would be organic and unprocessed (and grass fed for any meat I eat).

As to Indian road workers .... not like Thailand at all as far a diet goes. A while back a couple friends and me bought Enfield motorcycles and rode the length of India from Tamil Nadu and Kerela, to Ladakh over The Himalayas.
I can tell you that for a very large proportion of the population, people eat dahl, (veggies down south,) and rice or chapatis, (parathas, dosa and iddly down south) with dahi (Yogurt). Oh and sweet chai. That's all there is.
It was actually a fascinating experience to know that dahl = food, for days and days on end. Made you really think about whether you were hungry, or just wanting something yummy to eat, and I like dahl!

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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:38 pm

ah yeah? no meat at all eh?

yeah makes u realise we eat too much in the west... as standard.
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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:29 am

Bah! Internet challenged! Got to ramble fast and crude.

Where to begin? I'll take it in order.

Verifiable/falsifiable; Maybe, I don't know. I'm thinking falsifiable as in "falsifiable hypothesis." In other words "can be proven wrong." Which amounts to how scientific it is or isn't. If you couldn't prove the claim wrong, it wouldn't be falsifiable, and thus very fucking unscientific. Pilon's theory is that about 120 g of protein is sufficient to grow muscle for normal healthy people not on drugs or anything.

Unremarkable point, true. But the reccomended amount of protein I've seen on bodybuilder sites was giganormous. For you Grannon, between 220 and 440 grams a day. Of course the only question is whether they claim you HAVe to have that to grow muscle, or because of the bodyfat thing.

For me, the protein myth is that huge amounts of protein is a necessity to grow muscle.


Amino acids Vs protein... correct me if I'm wrong here. But isn't protein entirely composed of amono acids? As in that the protein is simply a long chain of amino acids? And that the entire reason why we NEEd protein as opposed to any other oxidizable stuff (carbs and fat) is for the amino acids? So the "it" (muscle growth, the parameters of this discussion) as far as protein goes is about amino acids.


Now, the steroid study. It's not about the steroid group. It's about the fact that the control group had normally expected muscle grotwh during the period on the 120 g, and that the steroid group showed that there was sufficient protein in the 120 g diet for NEARLY THREE times the normal group's growth. If it was sufficient for that, there is no way you'll outdo that without steroids by accident.

I don't know how well a ridiculously juiced up bull of a man could use equally ridiculous amounts of protein. Maybe they can. Maybe the steroid taking group could have grown more muscle if they had been fed more protein. Fuck if I know.

So what the experiment did show was that while 120 g was enough to supply normal muscle growth for healthy normal lifters without drugs. It was also enough to supply the nearly three times as much muscle built by the juicers.

Granted, they did not say what they weight before and after was. But they did supply the ratio. 0,7 g protein pp and 16 calories pp of bodyweight. You used that to calculate the five chicken breasts. Wich BTW I considered pointing out back when you defy anyone to bodybuild on JUST four. Like, according to that calculation, you'll probably need ONE more chicken breasts worth of protein. But I think along these lines.

After 80 kg, you add more food on your plate. and if you're a big strong dude working hard and training hard, you will be hungry. Five chicken breasts worth of protein distributed through everything you'll eat in a whole day. Doable. Above average. Pilon said it would be slightly above average. Following the 120 g, it would be + 30 g of protein for joe average in the US. And if the avg protein consumption rate in the uk is between 70 and 80 that's + 40/50 g protein there. One more for 80 - or two more chicken breasts for 80 + and so on.

70 - 120 (150) Vs. starting at 220 - 440. High and low is relative stuff. But there's the difference.

Russ said something good though. Science Vs ... experience? Yeah.

Didn't "they" calculate that a bumblebeee was unable to fly once? But it obviously does. Nothing bad with science. Science is simply observation and measurement. Making models and quality-checking them. the problem with the bumblebee thing can be summed up as "poor experimental design." The data gained is only as good as the experimental design behind the study.

On experience. We are humans. That's enough to get me worried. Laughing

So, experience. You (Richie G) asked somewhere if the diets the builders were on wasn't evidence? they do it, and I would think have confidence in it, but I know a lot of competitive athletes have good luck rituals, lucky shirts and so on. And swear by things that are physically impossible. (ball effects in baseball, saw it on mythbusters Laughing) We also have "lucky streaks" and all these things. IN ITSELF it is no more evidence than the lucky rituals are. Evidence would be if all the variables were tested so the ones that are behind the magic are revealed.

So science Vs experience. Both have some big potential flaws that can warp the data.

What the bodybuilders do obviously works. but if 120 g protein is enough and only the training program itself and creatine and testosterone can truly stimulate muscle growth. The extra stuff might just be expensive superstition. As far as muscle growth is the issue. It might work magic for the bodyfat stuff, don't know, can't say.

Got to run... bounce

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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:33 pm

firstly
my apologies for the "falsifiable hypothesis" gaff, you are quite right, when I was at Uni, we called them "negative" not "falsifiable" and I have to admit Ive never heard it before

So

to paraphrase the Senshidoans again on this topic: "ask the experienced not the learned"

by your own admission Rich B you arent a bodybuilder, your not interested in bodybuilding and you dont really do that much weights is that correct?

if so would you say its fair on this issue to put you more on the side of "learned" than "experienced"?

and if so how "learned" would you reckon you are in the field of nutrition for bodybuilding?

this isnt about elitism or who has a right to what, its to establish a context for total honesty


the fact is you have just dropped some right clangers in your last post



now if I call you for it I might be seen as patronising, but if I rip you for it I could be seen as being mean

neither appeal
do you want me to pick you up on them or just drop it?

Please dont call me "Grannon", Im not addressing you by your second name, and its pretty rude.

Thankyou Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:43 pm

How complicated is it really?

Lucky rituals vs Science vs Experience? What?

You can read all you want on statistics and datas but ultimatley only the people who have personally done it can speak of the conclusion that they have made.

You ask strong people how to get strong.

You ask big people how to get big.

The experience and success of these people are a form of study and research it self. You can't just say its all mental.

Just go around the internet (elitefts, t-nation) to ask high level powerlifters, bbers, drugged or not to take less then over a gram of protein per body weight and see their reaction. I doubt any of these people are affected by the placebo effect.
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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:02 pm

Reg wrote:
How complicated is it really?

Lucky rituals vs Science vs Experience? What?

You can read all you want on statistics and datas but ultimatley only the people who have personally done it can speak of the conclusion that they have made.

You ask strong people how to get strong.

You ask big people how to get big.

The experience and success of these people are a form of study and research it self. You can't just say its all mental.

Just go around the internet (elitefts, t-nation) to ask high level powerlifters, bbers, drugged or not to take less then over a gram of protein per body weight and see their reaction. I doubt any of these people are affected by the placebo effect.

okay, this is where i do my church dance and say 'halleluyah'...my eyes roll into the
back of my head and i start doing john bullushi flips down the aisle toward the main
alter.

ahem, my sentiments exactly

still have the fever and the spirit, can i get an AMEN from my people in the house.

"herrr baba herrr slappa dappa babalu ba--shebattt shebatt" sorry the spirit was
with me Sleep



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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:32 pm

It's true, they do look like a bunch of walnuts stuffed into a condom .....!!!!

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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:45 pm

maija wrote:
It's true, they do look like a bunch of walnuts stuffed into a condom .....!!!!

lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!
lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!
lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!
lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!
lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!
lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!
lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!
lol! lol! lol! lol!
lol! lol! lol!
lol! lol!
lol!

drunken ...thank you Maija I love you
Sleep

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PostSubject: Re: frequent bodybuilding   Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:35 am

It would be true to say I have absolutely no credentials, qualifications, knowledge or ability whatsoever in any way shape or form. Nor do I train at all.

My little eeeeeego-shmeeeego is expendable. If I'm talking nonsense then correct me without mercy.

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