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 Supra State Concept in Fiction

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markh



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PostSubject: Re: Supra State Concept in Fiction   Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:43 pm

The thing about "becoming" a character is I'm not sure that's what Rich is striving for or if we are attempting to access the needed attributes of that "character". when I first started working on Rich's psychological aspects of his training I was constantly reminded of the scene in Bruce Lee's "Enter the Dragon" where he is teaching the younger student. I don't think we neccessarily need the emotion, but its content and energy.

For a blast from the past for your consideration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDW6vkuqGLg

Keep safe and train hard/smart, Mark H
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maija
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PostSubject: Re: Supra State Concept in Fiction   Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:58 pm

markh,
Agree with you about the uniform and the gear being the shift between states. I think what Grossman was talking about was more about soldiers returning from war with no formal integration ritual back into 'the tribe'/society -performed BY the tribe. I think that was his main point as I understand it - You create warriors in time of need, train them to be skilled and efficient at their job - breaking the social taboo of killing say, then after they are done, they have to return, and have to be given a place back in society within the social norms of behavior.
As I remember it, he posits that the reason so many Vietnam vets have PTSD problems, is because they were pretty much just dumped on a plane home, arriving to a barrage of anti war sentiment, with no obvious path to re integration.

As far as the attributes vs character change ...therein lies the fine line eh? How do you internalize the attributes without changing who you are? I read somewhere, I think in that great book 'Blink', that for instance facial expression IS your emotional state, not a byproduct of it. If you manifest attributes ...you do change character on some level.
Just a thought.

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Mike2010

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PostSubject: Re: Supra State Concept in Fiction   Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:59 pm

For a minute there I got the impression that somebody here is also somebody else..

Truly ironic in a discussion about 'Supra States'.



Anyway, nobody's touched on this one. In response to my feeble previous answers, I bring my offering:

Fight Club



HOWZATTTTTT!!!
By the way, a very interesting thread that makes the imagination work overtime. That's the path to learning.. Thanks.
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markh



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PostSubject: Re: Supra State Concept in Fiction   Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:26 am

Mike,

I was trying to obey the first rule of FightClub Wink , but now that it's out there I think it's a close example. I do have to agree with Maija about how many characters in fiction seem to have there alter ego given/forced on them as oppossed to developed by them. The thing about FightClub is that the Tyler personality was subconsciously created.


Maybe there is potential here for Rich to branch out and write a book or series of books where the main character uses Rich's concepts to build another persona using Suprastates and other concepts, you know incorporating the various concepts in which you learn while being engaged by the story. It seems to be a growing trend such as Geoff Thompson's book "RED MIST" or Brooks Kubik's series on old school wightlifting "Legacy of Iron".


Keep safe and train hard/smart, Mark H
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Official Hypocrite



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PostSubject: Re: Supra State Concept in Fiction   Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:18 pm

Tyler is the Masonic Guard. That book and film is so very blatantly actually revealing the Elite's Mind Kontrolled Legion of Slave Agents, particularly the "Terrorists" and Saboteurs, not about psychosocial commentary as all the pundits would have it. I lob this link in like a random hand grenade: http://www.plim.org/MControl.htm
If you can't see it then you have an deficient education or just not inquired into the subject intensely enough.
No point in getting all defensive about one's great intelligence. Fact is: Tyler is the Masonic Guard. Why do you suppose the name was chosen for this "fictional entertainment art" if the FreeMasons have nothing to do with it?

BTW Have you noticed Edward Norton is being typecast as a MPD MK vic? I saw him act it nicely in his rarely shown second film from 1996, "Primal Fear ".
Perhaps he is not acting so much from imagination but from memory? I suspect so...
Ha! Just read this on imdb.com. "His father, Edward Norton Sr. was an attorney for president Jimmy Carter".
So he is just an average guy, Ed. Ha! The A-list are all Bloodline, peons. Wakey wakey before it is too late!
Speaking of Actors, Tom Cruise and Travolta are under the Scientologists, see http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/mpd-did.htm
Brad Pitt and Angelina are typical MK puppets... oh look, the PittFace, he played the Tyler. Small world.

I also note from a google of "Norton Mind Control" that : "The Manchurian Candidate" (New York, New York: W.W. Norton & Company, 1991). Small world.
Also, the antivirus GUARD on this laptop is NORTON. It is an interesting name but I will spare you an esoteric analysis.
I see his first film, a American-English Language educatonal called "Only in America", has him play many roles "Duane / James / Bruno / Eric / The Museum Guard (as Ed Norton)", GUARD again! Bruno is the really dodgy name though...

As for Supra-states, let's look for ideal models. Don't worry. I don't knock anyone's ego in this bit.

If we have some superwarrior, raised to fight by a longline of champion fighters and military Elite, who is invulnerabvle to ordinary attackers owing to his superawareness, reactions and toughness etc... then I imagine he could easily project a bonechilling threat to any viewers.
The question is, would that be as effective as a simple thuggish malevolence, would our hero have to be acquainted with nasty feelings? I feel he would have already mastered anger and have mastered the remaining little fear of violence so that his CONFIDENCE would be a deterent. Clearly confidence is not the same as nastiness.I feel this is related to the "Voice of Command", that verbal/sonic (it does not need words, just tone) imperative that rulers employ for effect on their subjects... officers to subordinates... parents to children. Anger and implied threat is certainly present there, the children dare not risk the wrath of the parent, even though logically their actual punishment they might mete out may be not that bad, the emotional confidence that the dominator has the power and desire to make the beating of the stick worse than the wear of compliance to their will is enough to gain a usually instant submission, at a animal level. Simple dominating intimidation.

Perhaps our champ could access and project this state of malevolence without having to train it in, to feed it, simply drawing on his memory and familiarity with anger and violence, not necessarily his own anger but that of many oppponents over the years who lost their temper. He would of course be cool as a cucumber in most situations.
How much real hostility would our man have to be intimate with to learn the frankly sadistic mindset a thug might have? Lesser in terrorising ability but still very scary would be the rare professional gangster who coldly hurts without any personal emotional involvement, just doing his job. He would project very scary in a different way as the humanity of sadism has been replaced by the ruthlessness and determined efficency of the juggernaut robot, the dreadnought terminator.

Oh, I have more to say but need some fresh air and negative ions so I am outta here. Back later, be cool.
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Mike2010

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PostSubject: Re: Supra State Concept in Fiction   Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:39 pm

markh wrote:
Mike,

I was trying to obey the first rule of FightClub Wink

Damn, you're good!

At the moment the Naked Gun is on (Leslie Neilson). This is another film where 'supra-states' are part of the plot.. Hmmmm
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maccalon



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PostSubject: Re: Supra State Concept in Fiction   Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:26 pm

Anyone seen Bronson (the movie)

Although its based on a true story, thats one hell of a state to call upon !!!
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Blakops

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PostSubject: Re: Supra State Concept in Fiction   Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:48 pm

Yes & strange film. Not sure if i liked it. The lead was superb.

Never read Charles Bronson's auto, anyone given it a go?
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Official Hypocrite



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PostSubject: Re: Supra State Concept in Fiction   Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:28 pm

Yeah!

Bloody good fun
Like Chopper but you get the sense that he could be a really good mate, as long as you respected he is mad and so not to be toyed with.
He was a bad boy in the past that had no ability to handle outside life... tragic really.

Now he has been instutionalised and isolated he seems to have chilled out. Check his Solitary Fitness.

He used to do pranayama and mantra before his crazy spectaculars. I mean, kidnapping a whole gang of Iraqi kidnappers! That's class!!!

Goes to show the power of power. He can just grab and smash or throw you in a flash. I'd pay good money to see him in the UFC!!! At least we'd see go forward smashing not the ducking and jumping back boxing style crap they do.
What bugs me is these UFC idiots practise jujitsu but when someone predicatbly throws a haymaker they just cover and disengage and then throw one back! What happened to moving into the space and harmonising with his generous donation. It should all be over in a flash, other guy throws a big overhand right hook, BANG! He's chinned and thrown into an armlock and/or his head spiked. Is that legal? UFC is gay. Fast elbows would sort most of them out.

Oh dear... off topic. Yes, yes, supra-states. Well, let's talk about Animal possession. a la Silat..
perhaps Mr.Grannon can get himself over to the Cimande Silat people for some serious pain. He'll love it.
They are the only ones who don't do animal powers, prefering human energy, but they are best, it seems to me.

oh, it's suprastates in fiction... erm. OK, how about Doublethink from 1984. The conformist self-censor that is so strong in most people, who can't stomach the Lady's Stew, could be adapted to gain us the abiility to utterly avoid understanding what a hostile is meaning! We pretend we really don't get what he is saying by "Do you want some?". We cannot believe anyone could be hostile, we are so fluffy. "Want some what?", we ask innocently. This will confuse the c@nt and he will make mistakes like a telegraphed punch leaving him open to be neutralised.
This leads me to another topic, the vaunted preemptive strike and it's dubious value for staying out of prison... I will read the forum and see if I need a new thread.
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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Re: Supra State Concept in Fiction   Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:24 am

Blakops wrote:
Yes & strange film. Not sure if i liked it. The lead was superb.

Never read Charles Bronson's auto, anyone given it a go?


I thought the film was poo. Looks like a 30 minute arthouse film project that was overextended (and overstretched) for a bigger release.

The terry gilliam/clockwork orange motifs rang false and the theatrical rock opera scenes nearly made me puke I was cringin so hard

very convicning performance though from the not well known lead, kudos for doing loads of naked fight scenes too, that takes balls...

"Charles Bronson's" nephew used to hang around the door I was on in Tenerife, had exactly the same speaking voice, so that was a bit spooky to hear, the effect shouldnt be threatening if you think about it, but delviered with intent, it really really is

unlike me he was'nt paid to be on the door, just liked to wait for it to go off and then get stuck in, very nice chap really, he just got a kick out of scrapping


Quote :
At least we'd see go forward smashing not the ducking and jumping back boxing style crap they do.
What bugs me is these UFC idiots practise jujitsu but when someone predicatbly throws a haymaker they just cover and disengage and then throw one back! What happened to moving into the space and harmonising with his generous donation. It should all be over in a flash, other guy throws a big overhand right hook, BANG! He's chinned and thrown into an armlock and/or his head spiked. Is that legal? UFC is gay. Fast elbows would sort most of them out.


I think we are starting to see some stagnation from some rather lazy, non innovative "lets train like this because every other MMA school does" training regimes

Pure MMA fighters to a man (unless they have done striking training outside of MMA) seem to have the same shit boxing habits that come (I believe) from one flaw in the way they do their boxing drills, which ahs ben repeated and repeated like a bad photocopy... I'll bore you with that one another day





Quote :
could be adapted to gain us the abiility to utterly avoid understanding what a hostile is meaning! We pretend we really don't get what he is saying by "Do you want some?". We cannot believe anyone could be hostile, we are so fluffy. "Want some what?", we ask innocently. This will confuse the c@nt and he will make mistakes like a telegraphed punch leaving him open to be neutralised.

done it many times in not that threatening ego based eyeballing kick offs, works beautifully

"you ever had yer nose broken lad?" (smack rat with a scabby face faking a thick scouse accent)

"I beg your pardon?" (posh sotto voce, customer services can I help you sorry please thankyou?)

"you ever had yer nose broken lad?"

"Have I ever had my what sorry? you'll have to speak up"

"you ever had yer nose broken lad?"

"Im really sorry I dont know what your saying, whats he saying?" (friend shrugs)

"oh fuck off yer knob 'ed"

"ok, cheerio then!" (this all delivered as though the chappy was asking you the way to tooting station)
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Traceur



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PostSubject: Re: Supra State Concept in Fiction   Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:42 pm

markh wrote:
Damn Russ,

Now I've got to go into my storage and dig out my old issues of the Badger. Oh well who knows what other treasures I'll find.


Keep safe and train hard/smart, Mark H

I used to have a bunch of these comics. Badger was even reviewed in Combat once as the writer, Mike Baron, trained under a Shorin Ryu black belt called Roger Salick. Salick would appear at cons as the Badger and kick Baron in the head.
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