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 The Value of Conditioning?

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UncloudedFall



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PostSubject: The Value of Conditioning?   Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:42 am

Have already put this post up on another board, but thought I would throw it up here as well. It could quite have easily gone into the thread 'Does size matter?', but thought it introduced one or two new things that weren't specifically addressed there. Too, I thought posting it as a new topic would generate fresh discussion.

Tom Kier of Sayoc Kali On Conditioning



Let me start off and say, It is better to be in good physical shape, both with strength and cardio. And I would be a better fighter if those traits were better in me.

I'm overweight and out of anything that would be called good shape.

If I was to fight myself, my other self, who is just like me but in better shape, I lose. I can definitely lose in real life of course as well.

I am an advocate of being in shape, and have trained boxers to fight and wrestlers and pushed them to get in shape for competition.

With all that being said. I have in my many years of fighting in real life, in bars bouncing and on the street with no rules. And a conservative number would be in the 500 fights range. I have rarely fought anyone in worse shape than myself, and I have never lost one of these fights. So all those guys who were in better shape than me, LOST. In fact many of the fights started with the other guy saying something like " You FAT F#@K, I'll kill you!!!" And 3 seconds later crying that he's had enough, that's reality.

I have lost many competitions with the many rules and matched opponents. I've been knocked senseless by my boxing instructor and lost 1000's of wrestling matches, counting practice matches, as well as real matches. Some of these I lost because I was out of shape. But that's not reality.

Remember real life is different, there is no rule book, no bell, no ref to start it or stop it if you are losing bad. Most of these fights are won before they start, because of knowledge and tactics, sometimes intimidation and misdirection, superior weapons or weapon technologies, training, calmness that comes from experience, etc. Few fights go so long that cardio is a factor, I would say my one on one fights last an average of 3 seconds from first contact. As out of shape as I am, I can do almost anything for 30 seconds, ....more than enough time.

So does being out of shape make me a worse fighter, absolutely. Does that mean I can't fight, absolutely not. Anyone who wants some can come to get it and find out.

with respect
Tom Kier
5'11 355lbs
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Sharif H



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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Conditioning?   Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:42 am

As a small framed guy, I have to admit that in fighting it seems that these big guys do much better (or at least can take a lot more) than guys like me. For various reasons.

I can't really comment on Tom's fighting ability. But I can say he has a very like-able personality and that he is not 5'11". He may look it next to those Filipino guys but when I met him he was shorter than me. And I'm i'm 5'8".
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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Conditioning?   Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:17 pm

Sharif H wrote:
As a small framed guy, I have to admit that in fighting it seems that these big guys do much better (or at least can take a lot more) than guys like me. For various reasons.

I can't really comment on Tom's fighting ability. But I can say he has a very like-able personality and that he is not 5'11". He may look it next to those Filipino guys but when I met him he was shorter than me. And I'm i'm 5'8".

the point is made and all of us--i think, would agree...we probably started classes because of big guys
Razz there's a reason and we musn't forget it geek

i'm glad you hinted, so it wouldn't fall back on me--regarding the big 500 club. i saw that and sort of
thought, "yeah, anyway..."

though i wouldn't be first in line to want to stand in the way of his wrathful poundage scratch

497 = argument with mum over who gets the car today
498 = wrestling with my bro--in the backyard
499 = kicking the dog that was barking at me whilst trying to enjoy my cafe-latte-mocha-booboo
500 = defending myself whilst working the door

flower

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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Conditioning?   Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:33 pm

hang on

he is 5 ft 7 and 25 stone?

Er, something has gone wrong here because, that photo is not of a 5ft 7, 25 stone man
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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Conditioning?   Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:46 pm

Richard Grannon wrote:
hang on

he is 5 ft 7 and 25 stone?

Er, something has gone wrong here because, that photo is not of a 5ft 7, 25 stone man

you've all got it wrong, he's 500 stone and been in from 5 to 7 fights Razz,
or was it one fight at 5 till 7 this morning scratch

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UncloudedFall



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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Conditioning?   Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:02 pm

I know absolutely nothing about the gentleman or the art he practices. I just came across the posting and thought it brought up an interesting point so far as being conditioned for that 30 sec window in which most street altercations seem to fall. If he has lied about his height, and the number posted is not the result of someone else's edit, it would not surprise me. I recall a show on internet dating, and it said that the number one thing men were prone to lie about was their height! Something which had surprised me at the time, as I had thought it would be age or income. Why lie about that which would be instantly revealed upon first meeting? As to the whole 500 fights thing, it does not seem to pass the smell test. All those altercations and no legal consequences? Heck, maybe I'm wrong, but that's the first question that leaped to mind. Too, the sheer number. Over a ten year period that would equate to a fight week, every week! Where the heck does this guy live, and what does he do?
On his weight, I weigh 270lbs (both muscle and fat) and stand a legit 6 foot. He looks flabbier than myself, but then I am wary of going by just one pic. Like so many others, he may just have put up one that shows him in the best light. (Others of us possess wives who delight in putting up pics on facebook that show us in the shower with only a pink fluffy body scrubber between themselves and entirely too much exposure.)
All that addressed, what interested me was his 30 second observation. Now, conditioning wise, there are many blokes who would wipe the floor with me. Lol, the guy who instructs me has demonstrated that fact many a time. But too, in my day to day life, I would encounter only a couple of blokes in every hundred who could stand beside me and do ten plus curls with a 70lb dumbbell. Such an advantage in gross strength has shown me in training at least, that within the parameters of a street altercation, I am able to close gap quite a bit between myself and those who possess a much higher level of skill. To the effect that sometimes, I come up trumps, despite delivering a typical attack of the type that can be intercepted and negated by a prepared, trained individual. Other times, it goes to a draw. And of course, there are the other times still, when I am brought down (a catalogue of bruises, strains and cracked ribs attest to this). These times dominate, yet I know from feedback that my size still makes it difficult, sometimes very much so. Now, in a ring/sporting context, I don't doubt that I would gas out. But, as I have no plans in that direction...
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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Conditioning?   Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:32 pm

its entirely possible that a fat short bloke with a bit of training and bottle could bash some drunks before running out of breath

as to the 500 fights mark? what a fucking stupid thing to claim, immediately discredits every other point he made for me
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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Conditioning?   Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:55 pm

agreed with all. i sort of got the feeling he COULD fight, but felt the need
to embelish--amongst perceived hard case peers.

i too always assume taller/bigger equal shit storm i have to be concerned
about [reach if nothing else].

at different times in my sports fighting days--and security guard days,
i certainly qualified as a stout short f&*ker...the most extreme being when
my 5'8" was packing 235 lbs. i always instinctively new to charge in and
dilute all the skill level [being uninhibited helped alot...but as you all may
guess, "it didn't always work, but it worked enough for me to give it a try
when it seemed i had nothing else to lose"]. i remember a fast guy charging
me once--blindsiding me actually, but with my weight--to include love handles
and flubber, i bear hugged him on my way down and sort of spun and ended
up on top of him...to make a long story short, that was one unhappy mother
f*&ker. from a distance i'm sure it looked like one of those nature specials
that show size dichotomized seals getting it on. big male on top, little poor
bastard female underneath. PBS has messed me up for life lol!

now i seem to keep to about 200--not light for 5'8", and i have to say, for
a short guy it makes up the difference. it's only during the sun bathing [bathing suit]
weather that i--and everyone else, am unhappy affraid

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Sharif H



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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Conditioning?   Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:04 pm

I just remember being pretty surprised at his hight (or lack thereof). Because i'd seen clips of him before training with him and these guys in Birmingham. And you know what... I may have even been a bit shorter then. I was only 19 at the time!

But what he doesn't have vertically hie makes up for horizontally.

Either way, lovely guy. Very smiley happy-go-lucky. Kind of guy everybody gathers round in the pub or family gathering to listen to stories silent
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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Conditioning?   Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:10 pm

Oooh, it's going to be hard to focus on the conditioning question with the vision of Russ and some guy flapping around on the ground like seals .... lord, that's still making my eyes water

Anyway, couple of thoughts ... No one could argue that conditioning is a BAD idea, after all, I don't fancy Matey's chances doing the 'nike' defense ... but I get the point that you don't necessarily NEED great conditioning to pre empt, or scuffle for a few seconds. However, that video clip I put up a while back of Urijah Faber and his escapades in Indonesia make the point that if there are multiple players, then fitness is a damn fine idea.
Also fear, stress levels and adrenaline all affect capabilities regardless of conditioning.

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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Conditioning?   Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:50 pm

maija wrote:
that video clip I put up a while back of Urijah Faber and his escapades in Indonesia make the point that if there are multiple players, then fitness is a damn fine idea.

Any chance you could find that clip again, Maija? I'd like to see that Smile I think it's something you posted before I signed up to the forum?
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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Conditioning?   Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:03 pm

Sharif - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOQLg7Kc8So

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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Conditioning?   Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:50 am

Russ the Muss wrote:
i remember a fast guy charging
me once--blindsiding me actually, but with my weight--to include love handles
and flubber, i bear hugged him on my way down and sort of spun and ended
up on top of him...to make a long story short, that was one unhappy mother
f*&ker. from a distance i'm sure it looked like one of those nature specials
that show size dichotomized seals getting it on. big male on top, little poor
bastard female underneath. PBS has messed me up for life lol!

lol! that's one of the funniest things I've read in a while Laughing


On the aspect of conditioning:

I guess I feel that we should train for what we intend to use our skills for. Explosiveness and focussed intent probably go much further than endurance in this regard. I've seen a lot of bouncers that look like this guy Tom Kiel. Big as hell, mean and know how to fight. I think the idea is to deter with their image and presence. Their conditioning fits their position and occupation.

I think this comes down to "what are we training for?" It's like we were talking about in the other threads like 'shadow boxing faux pas' how it's good for hand speed but bad for actually follow through and power.

If we're training to actually get out of a jam fast, in one piece, and survive then the training, obviously, (to me) needs to mirror that. I think most of us here are already doing that. If we are training for explosivness, power and intent, then our conditioning will follow naturally.

Just my $0.02 flower
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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Conditioning?   Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:12 am

D.M.B. wrote:
I guess I feel that we should train for what we intend to use our skills for. Explosiveness and focussed intent probably go much further than endurance in this regard. I've seen a lot of bouncers that look like this guy Tom Kiel. Big as hell, mean and know how to fight. I think the idea is to deter with their image and presence. Their conditioning fits their position and occupation.

I think this comes down to "what are we training for?" It's like we were talking about in the other threads like 'shadow boxing faux pas' how it's good for hand speed but bad for actually follow through and power.

If we're training to actually get out of a jam fast, in one piece, and survive then the training, obviously, (to me) needs to mirror that. I think most of us here are already doing that. If we are training for explosivness, power and intent, then our conditioning will follow naturally. :


well put cheers
a case of anatomy is destiny--there's a reason this is what some refer to as a bouncer build. weight;
padding;power;etc...

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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Conditioning?   Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:17 am

Russ the Muss wrote:
D.M.B. wrote:
I guess I feel that we should train for what we intend to use our skills for. Explosiveness and focussed intent probably go much further than endurance in this regard. I've seen a lot of bouncers that look like this guy Tom Kiel. Big as hell, mean and know how to fight. I think the idea is to deter with their image and presence. Their conditioning fits their position and occupation.

I think this comes down to "what are we training for?" It's like we were talking about in the other threads like 'shadow boxing faux pas' how it's good for hand speed but bad for actually follow through and power.

If we're training to actually get out of a jam fast, in one piece, and survive then the training, obviously, (to me) needs to mirror that. I think most of us here are already doing that. If we are training for explosivness, power and intent, then our conditioning will follow naturally. :


well put cheers
a case of anatomy is destiny--there's a reason this is what some refer to as a bouncer build. weight;
padding;power;etc...

ay Russ, what was that acronym you had for your training style? It pretty much summed it all up...

study
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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Conditioning?   Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:19 am

D.M.B. wrote:

ay Russ, what was that acronym you had for your training style? It pretty much summed it all up...

study

opposite of 'save' [as in save one's arse] 'evas' explotion of violence and speed Razz
i was thinking of a bullet at the time lol!

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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Conditioning?   Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:06 am

maija wrote:
Sharif - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOQLg7Kc8So

Thank you good sir!
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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Conditioning?   Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:52 pm

Well that clip was one of the best examples of the difference between the " oh Ya???????? I will use my MMA to take out any mother f...r that messes with me!!!!" mentality, and the one that says " although this guy is being an asshole I am in his country, he has probably has set this this up. probably has friends or weapons ready, or can expect the crowd to take sides on 'racial grounds alone" so i will go the bouncer and have him deal with this prick" mentality.Some people it seems simply cannot or will not see the diiference between fighting in the cage and surviving and protecting your life on the street. Look at this guy, what started as a macho one on thing turned into a battle for survival within minutes.Good thing for him is young fit and trained, thats how he escaped.bet he wont do that again.
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