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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Gracie Combatives   Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:55 am

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chulodog

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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:07 pm

only train rickson gracie jiu jitsu.


and you can adapt it in your fighting.
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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:18 pm

Oh boy... now you've done it. I think this is gonna turn into the "does BJJ work on the street?" debate Razz
I feel like running away lol

I haven't trained in that particular system, but I'd like to share some input anyway...

I've got a very close friend who is a BJJ expert. He's VERY good. And so his solution to pretty much every problem in the world is grappling. Knife defence? Grappling. World hunger? Grappling.

But like my other instructor who can make the silat-y stuff work for him, what he doesn't take into account is natural ability. He's a natural grappler and so he can jujitsu his way out of any confrontation. Me? I'm not a natural grappler, so it's pointless trying to force it to work. I'm a striker, so let's leave it at that.

But over all, I do see the value of this type of training. My grappling skills are very basic, but basic as they are, I know that my basic grappling + my striking means that on the ground (vs the untrained guy) that fight would be over in seconds. I can't submit any of my MMA/ BJJ friends but vs the untrained guy.... Cool
Also, getting a feel for stand up grappling (i.e. weight distribution while clinched up) is essential to unarmed combat in general

Conclusion, in my humble opinion: it's not a complete system, but it's an area of combat that has to be learned (and put in it's place!lol)

Just my two pennie's worth Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:37 pm

Quote :
Knife defence? Grappling. World hunger? Grappling.

Razz
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roadkill

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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:20 pm

I have 2 students that are currently training in it. Only been at it for about 3 months, but one of them just got his blue belt the bjj after a year and a half or so.
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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:25 pm

i dont like to wrestle that much also, but its very very effective against one opponent with clothes on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFI2U8C3Wwo&feature=related
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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:31 pm

also, a fellow doorman when i worked at the door was a 3 time wrestling champion of holland, believe me, if it really goes wrong he just smacked the guys on the conrete.. believe me, very very effective
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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:36 pm

check at 2.40 minutes how effective wrestling can be! also nice to do on the street! looks very impressive on other opponents

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALQLZHulv0M



also this one on the concrete, and tho fight was over

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ct5NeqoF3s
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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:13 pm

chulodog wrote:
check at 2.40 minutes how effective wrestling can be! also nice to do on the street! looks very impressive on other opponents

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALQLZHulv0M



also this one on the concrete, and tho fight was over

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ct5NeqoF3s

Lethal. Horrible to watch in fact. Like those sports accidents that make you wince. With that 1st throw (in the first clip), is the thrower not hurting himself a little bit too?
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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:24 am

Sharif Haque (Tacpro) wrote:
But like my other instructor who can make the silat-y stuff work for him, what he doesn't take into account is natural ability. He's a natural grappler and so he can jujitsu his way out of any confrontation. Me? I'm not a natural grappler, so it's pointless trying to force it to work. I'm a striker, so let's leave it at that.


Conclusion, in my humble opinion: it's not a complete system, but it's an area of combat that has to be learned (and put in it's place!lol)

Smile


ooo, i hate saying 'me-too', but i'd be re'iterating if i didn't. Laughing

but, as Chulo's let on. when someone can do something very very well...it's wise not to underestimate
him/her/herm/shim...uh, you know what i mean Embarassed

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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:04 am

tactpro wrote:

Lethal. Horrible to watch in fact


yeah man, nothing pretty about real fighting
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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:57 pm

no...

the solution to everything in BJJ seems to be to take it to the ground and apply an ankle hold/arm bar or choke/restraint ... fine, that works when your aim is to get a tapout and get a point, because that's usually where it ends... on the street, in a club or public place is this a good idea? Does it end THERE when you have a dominant position on the ground?

Going to the ground like that means committing yourself completely to applying the hold, the opponent may be immobilized but so is the person applying the hold.

Going to the ground goes against any instinct I have... in the street, club, public place, where ever, it seems like a bad idea. You're way too vulnerable to an attack from someone else, too. I don't think I'd ever willingly sacrifice being up and mobile with options to being on the ground rolling around where you may end up on your back getting your head kicked in.
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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Sun Sep 20, 2009 2:11 pm

D.M.B. wrote:
no...

the solution to everything in BJJ seems to be to take it to the ground and apply an ankle hold/arm bar or choke/restraint ... fine, that works when your aim is to get a tapout and get a point, because that's usually where it ends... on the street, in a club or public place is this a good idea? Does it end THERE when you have a dominant position on the ground?

Going to the ground like that means committing yourself completely to applying the hold, the opponent may be immobilized but so is the person applying the hold.

Going to the ground goes against any instinct I have... in the street, club, public place, where ever, it seems like a bad idea. You're way too vulnerable to an attack from someone else, too. I don't think I'd ever willingly sacrifice being up and mobile with options to being on the ground rolling around where you may end up on your back getting your head kicked in.

agreed--however, whether it's said or not [or obvious or not from the video], whislt i certainly would
not ever desire to the ground...EVER, just for shits and giggles, and a terrible assumption that no friends
of the attacker will join in scratch should one ever go to the ground because they are facing some
neanderthal in a barren wasteland, as Richie points out, go past submission and on to the icky area of joint break, and leave joint manipulation behind. no tap outs, just snap/crackle/pop...over. welcome to the barfy world of structural damage as a means of shutting him down.

i'd rather just punch someone in the eye and grab their nethers and hand it to them--it's SO much easier, for me at least sunny

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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Sun Sep 20, 2009 2:17 pm

i agree dmb

and you have to be a pretty good fighter to not go to the ground, or grappling. in mma you can avoid grabbing more easy because your naked, on the street its more likely they try to grab you and if your punches not immidiatly work he can swing you down if you not know how to avoid it/ handle it.

Going to the ground like that means committing yourself completely to applying the hold, the opponent may be immobilized but so is the person applying the hold.

if you snap the arm, or choke him, or give a nice neck crank... he is immobilized, but not you.

hey, but the system is a lot about the money, BUT its one of the few fighting arts wich has proven itself against stronger opponents
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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Sun Sep 20, 2009 2:31 pm

Russ the Muss wrote:
D.M.B. wrote:
no...

the solution to everything in BJJ seems to be to take it to the ground and apply an ankle hold/arm bar or choke/restraint ... fine, that works when your aim is to get a tapout and get a point, because that's usually where it ends... on the street, in a club or public place is this a good idea? Does it end THERE when you have a dominant position on the ground?

Going to the ground like that means committing yourself completely to applying the hold, the opponent may be immobilized but so is the person applying the hold.

Going to the ground goes against any instinct I have... in the street, club, public place, where ever, it seems like a bad idea. You're way too vulnerable to an attack from someone else, too. I don't think I'd ever willingly sacrifice being up and mobile with options to being on the ground rolling around where you may end up on your back getting your head kicked in.

agreed--however, whether it's said or not [or obvious or not from the video], whislt i certainly would
not ever desire to the ground...EVER, just for shits and giggles, and a terrible assumption that no friends
of the attacker will join in scratch should one ever go to the ground because they are facing some
neanderthal in a barren wasteland, as Richie points out, go past submission and on to the icky area of joint break, and leave joint manipulation behind. no tap outs, just snap/crackle/pop...over. welcome to the barfy world of structural damage as a means of shutting him down.

i'd rather just punch someone in the eye and grab their nethers and hand it to them--it's SO much easier, for me at least sunny

yepp and that may be the one instance where that stuff is applicable on the ground. Just my personal preference, if it ever DID go to the ground for me, instead of snapping an elbow or wrist I just go for the eyes, throat, balls etc... yeah I'm dirty lol. I just think doing so would take way less time than applying a joint lock/break with a struggling fully resisting crazy person.
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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Sun Sep 20, 2009 2:36 pm

chulodog wrote:
i agree dmb

and you have to be a pretty good fighter to not go to the ground, or grappling. in mma you can avoid grabbing more easy because your naked, on the street its more likely they try to grab you and if your punches not immidiatly work he can swing you down if you not know how to avoid it/ handle it.

Going to the ground like that means committing yourself completely to applying the hold, the opponent may be immobilized but so is the person applying the hold.

if you snap the arm, or choke him, or give a nice neck crank... he is immobilized, but not you.

hey, but the system is a lot about the money, BUT its one of the few fighting arts wich has proven itself against stronger opponents

It certainly has proven itself to bigger opponents, and fighters of different styles too. I just think that the sterile environment lends itself to laying on ones back in the guard position saying "come get me" and in real life it's the last position I'd want to be in.
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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:23 pm

D.M.B. wrote:

if it ever DID go to the ground for me, instead of snapping an elbow or wrist I just go for the eyes, throat, balls etc... yeah I'm dirty lol. I just think doing so would take way less time than applying a joint lock/break with a struggling fully resisting crazy person.

i guess that makes us both dirty--filthy even. Razz i agree--if something looks too athletic, dynamic, and sexy...save it for the bed room. affraid i want this over fast, for 'OH' so many reasons. Shocked

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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:38 pm

Well, this talk of chokes and eye gouges made me want to post a somewhat relevant Chiron blog here, but perhaps this is too off thread. I'll start a new one.

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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:11 pm

Russ the Muss wrote:
D.M.B. wrote:

if it ever DID go to the ground for me, instead of snapping an elbow or wrist I just go for the eyes, throat, balls etc... yeah I'm dirty lol. I just think doing so would take way less time than applying a joint lock/break with a struggling fully resisting crazy person.

i guess that makes us both dirty--filthy even. Razz i agree--if something looks too athletic, dynamic, and sexy...save it for the bed room. affraid i want this over fast, for 'OH' so many reasons. Shocked

lol!

cheers

not enough emoticons for that response Russ flower
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PostSubject: Gracie combatives   Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:01 pm

I am currently watching their vid series. Have to say that lesson 1 taught me three points at least, that i consider simple and useful.

I have done limited grappling so thats coming from a novice. We do work it but to the "get to the feet and ..." way of things. It does stick though.

last party I went to I ended up in a surprise wrestling match. Nice irish fella i have been talking to all evening suddenly tells me he wants to fight & then dives into my legs. I have never had that happen to me before! I actually sprawled, not perfectly but the back leg was out & free & braced & my body weight was pressing down on his shoulders. he pulled free & I let him. & that was it.

point being I have never done any wrestling or groundwork or ju-jitsu before this last year, so just the little bit of knowledge & practise i have had was useful. some drunk didnt smash my skull on a flowerpot.

Matt
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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:18 am

Blakops wrote:
I am currently watching their vid series. Have to say that lesson 1 taught me three points at least, that i consider simple and useful.


point being I have never done any wrestling or groundwork or ju-jitsu before this last year, so just the little bit of knowledge & practise i have had was useful. some drunk didnt smash my skull on a flowerpot.

Matt

you on par with the rest of us mate:
plan A: strike first
plan B: strike over and over and over
plan C: have a grappling plan if one's hand is forced

p.s. glad your new buddy didn't smash your head on a flowerpot lol!

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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:22 am

back in the day (13 years ago now) - I was lucky enough to train at the first academy the Gracies opened in the UK and have since trained at a Gracie school near where I was living in Spain...

Back when I first started doing sub wrestling/bjj I only knew a little bit and was mainly doing muay thai- I would definitely consider myself more comfortable at a striking range

So when at age 23 I got into doorwork I only really had MT and BJJ available in the old toolbox as it were, thats how I scrapped and I did ok (look at my face only a few tiny scars, but my hands are lumpy as fook)
Which is why it kind of gives me a wry smile when I hear the old "MMA for the street" debate- I've been there and pressure tested it "live" and consider myself very qualified to comment on what sport combat training can and can not give you in a street environment

thing is with BJJ (Gracie JJ same thing) and MT is they do have to be "tweaked" quite a bit unless you want to injure yourself... how much "tweaking" should you do to a style before you are pushing an "MMA peg into an SP shaped hole"??? (credit AndyF for that one)

the answer: quite a flippin lot

the changes arent huge in appearance but they are very important (unless you want to mash your own bones into concrete)



one of the things people say about grappling/BJJ for street is : what about multiples? what about weapons?

excuse me?

what about the effing FLOOR??!!!!

ever tried grappling on concrete? it can really hurt


Now on this thread and on other threads people have mentioned the potential of grappling movments like throws for a street context, doesnt take much imagination to see that a good throw that hurts in the gym could be lethal when done onto a curb...

but that doesn't make it the most ergonomic or efficient thing to do now does it?

that clip of someone getting a side headlock and being body slammed- Ive seen that before on another cctv fight clip (roadkill? u know it?)

ok, looks impressive, but in both clips they person being slammed for all that it LOOKS dreadful/potentially lethal got back up and carried on fighting

now compare the potential effect of a slam versus the diminished potential effect of the most commonly practised BJJ takedown, the double leg, practised (as in the clips on the Gracie Combatives site) with the practitioner following the attacker to the ground!!!

I think groundwork, throws, clinching, grappling is a great way to develop combative "attributes": confidence (growing up doing judo and BJJ brought my confidence on like NOTHING else could), fitness, strength, proprioception, mental toughness etc etc

But as a model of "application"? Not unless you are forced into that range and even THEN the training system has to be changed and its "priorities" pretty much reversed (to choose disegagement to get back to the striking range OVER forcing the grappling range onto your opp. to get takedown for a ground submission which IS without doubt the objective of BJJ/sub wrestling)

Now I dont know about you, but when you have to REVERSE the objectives of a system to do the OPPOSITE of what it is designed to do, I would consider that a rather large "tweak" wouldnt you?

Ok now we are going to play tennis, but the objective is now to hit as many balls as possible away from your opponent out of the court... ? lol!

These moves just don't really fit into the criteria we have in SP- now thats coming from someone who has used BJJ in a street context with relative success- but then as I have said on many occassions (and upset some precious lambkins over) I just dont think the average toe rag who starts fights knows how to fight so pretty much ANY half decent strategy/training/technique that is developed in a non compliant environment is better than none... which is what most fight starting idiots have, no strategy and no clue, just a big mouth and a nasty attitude- a bit of training and a bit of strategy (and a bag full of bottle) and you will make mincemeat out of the VAST majority of people

nerds hate it when I say that so I love saying it Cool

The only time you are guaranteed results with BJJ/ submission wrestling moves is when you've gone to the ground and you are applying submissions (they really only are guaranteed on the ground)- and for many many reasons that just is not a smart strategy for the street ...

... and a very bad habit to train into your neurology when faced with any kind of combative stress.

I should know, Ive been there! When working the doors in Tenerife I was only doing BJJ and weights and nearly every fight I got into ended up on the floor

you get what you train for


Anyways:
I think it's simply a case of them muscling into a market they see as being lucrative but really have absolutely no business in
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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:23 pm

I agree with what you say, Ritchie.

& thankyou Russ for the well wishing.

I dont want to go to the ground for all the reasonable reasons raised. I assume that the guy I met had wrestled in the past or had had success with the double leg takedown before. If he had been better, I would have been on my back amongst pottery shards & flag stones (we were in the garden). But i have virtually no wrestling ground fighting experience so I am looking for applicable knowledge here.

The incident was so quick & unexpected. "I want to fight you!", Lunge! That my default of palm to the face & then keep hitting never entered my mind. I was lucky to sprawl as i did and that wasnt instinctive. I had to think"legs back!" & he had already started to hook my left leg

If I go down, then I want to get up & out very fast. Hence why I have been looking at the gracie stuff. thats my aim with it.
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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:16 pm

if they get the drop on you, sprawl is all you can do... its the only defence

so you end up going to the thing I mentioned before a BJJ/wrestling technique/movement but with your own priorities

ie.

not sprawl, spin, take his back or sprawl and guillotine

but sprawl, gouge the fluff out of his face, get him to flinch and cover, stand up but keep his head stuffed down and hammer some knees in

just a for instance,the point really being: same movement, different priorities

I still like to go to BJJ classes when I can and I still think the best anti grappling system in the world would have to be rooted in a sound knowledge of... grappling

as your example kind of illustrates Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Gracie Combatives   Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:27 pm

an "MMA for Self Defense" Clip kind of showing what I was trying to say

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