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roadkill

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PostSubject: Vicious school bus attack   Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:09 pm

Hmm... lessons, put your hands up for god sake... and fight back, you're already getting your arse kicked, might as well put something into it.

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Danite



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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:56 pm

Thats why I laugh when people tell me that my suggestion to bring back corporeal punishment is too extreme.These boys should be bent over a bench and have their butts whipped ten times with a cane.lets see if they do it again.
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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:47 pm

Danite wrote:
Thats why I laugh when people tell me that my suggestion to bring back corporeal punishment is too extreme.These boys should be bent over a bench and have their butts whipped ten times with a cane.lets see if they do it again.

i'm with you on that. the impetus to injure is diluted when repercussions
come in like kind. i'm not sure where i stand on the ultimate state run
exocutions, etc...but i've no problems with the old malaysian caning. my brother
got caned in front of his whole school for coming in drunk [as a kid Razz ] and my dad's
response was a very unsympathetic, "very good". Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:39 pm

look how the hookers enjoyed it! life is unfair
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Danite



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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:31 pm

Hey Russ, I agree with you on captial punishement, not sure I trust people enough with that kind of power, but a good butt whipping for these "wise guys" would highly edifying and put the fear of authority back into them.This kind of behavior needs to stop.I am suprised the boy didnt show a little more gumption there and fight back, also sad to see this was viewed as entertainment by the other kids, our society has issues I guess.Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:32 pm

PS you dads reaction sounds exactly what my dads reaction was when I told him I got "paddled" on the butt at school," well next time you will think a bit more before you act , right son?" Yup he was right!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:22 pm

Danite wrote:
Hey Russ, I agree with you on captial punishement, not sure I trust people enough with that kind of power, but a good butt whipping for these "wise guys" would highly edifying and put the fear of authority back into them.This kind of behavior needs to stop.I am suprised the boy didnt show a little more gumption there and fight back, also sad to see this was viewed as entertainment by the other kids, our society has issues I guess.Regards


veiled cowardess in abundance...i see alot of this in american high schools. pretend you're in on it,
jock [gain favor by showing support] the arsehole, and then imagine you are safer as one of the lackies.

the kid being beaten--if things are what they seem, is playing out a classist scenario [color coded if in the inner city, but classism all the same]. he's buying into it--my guess, rather than risk all turning in on him. don't get me wrong. i'm aware that i'm really extrapolating in mass order, but it's so f&*king prevelent in DC and surrounding areas, that i'm indulging an educated guess. in the southern parts, the roles sort of reverse in the socio-political mind fook that is the tension of haves and have-nots...but there it really is more about racism as all are farely in the same boat financially. my permenant tan gives me a 'hispanic' look, and it was enough to encounter some real hostile presumptions on the part of the word slingers as to what i'd take and wouldn't. alot there. when i first arrived at this country, my middle class friends continually tried to warn me not to stand up to the poor and tough kids. i did, it didn't cost me much, i issued a few beatings, received a few, and ultimately made enough friends to get out of the loop of ignorrant hype.

the same shite still plays itself out in my school [where i teach PE]. and it was old when i was young. alot more tollerance these days--proportionately speaking. things SLOWLY changing for the better.
i've never given a fookin rats arse what demographics my friends came from, and as such turned into a sort of cultural broker growing up, involving myself in two circles of friends:
my african american martial art friends
my caucasian american punk rock friends

a perfect split with no exceptions to the rule--except me of course.

people are odd. hegemony at work. in the end. hype no longer is needed. the code maintains itself.

TMI i reckon

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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:41 pm

Couple of things came to mind when watching the clip (apart from noticing my blood pressure rise as it does when I see some human beings that need neutralizing)...

The boy may have been going into a deep state of submissiveness in order to protect himself. As I think Russ said, he may have feared that fighting back would get him a worse beating (which it probably would have). As for why his pride didn't make him at least want to make a show of TRYING to defend himself... well, his self esteem and sense of self worth is probably so low he didn't care what the crowd thought. Which is also why he was prime target numero uno.

How can anybody deny that our youth are becoming increasingly sociopathic? Have any of you guys seen the video games people play these days? I don't play them myself (even though as a young dude in his mid 20's apparently it's one of the many useless things I'm supposed to do with my free time, like drinking and sleeping around). And then there's the lyrics and images in music videos and the absolutely SICK horror movies... the list goes on.

It's worrying. How am I supposed to raise my son (even though he's only a toddler now) in a way that he doesn't get brain washed by all that stuff and turn into one of those little shits like in the clip? Seriously considering home schooling.
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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:42 pm

PS - Russ, you should be teaching sociology not PE Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:50 pm

Sharif Haque (Tacpro) wrote:

How can anybody deny that our youth are becoming increasingly sociopathic? Have any of you guys seen the video games people play these days? I don't play them myself (even though as a young dude in his mid 20's apparently it's one of the many useless things I'm supposed to do with my free time, like drinking and sleeping around). And then there's the lyrics and images in music videos and the absolutely SICK horror movies... the list goes on.

It's worrying. How am I supposed to raise my son (even though he's only a toddler now) in a way that he doesn't get brain washed by all that stuff and turn into one of those little shits like in the clip? Seriously considering home schooling.


i totally understand that sentiment--all of the sentiments. kids are being desensitized on a grand scale to violence. i'm hearing it in the conversations, learning about it from my students who have dreadful home environments, and...last but not least, also think alot about my son--who's quite soft by comparison. his home life has a distinctly different flavor.

alot to reflect

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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:09 am

Sharif and Russ, I too am appalled at the degeneration in popular and youth culture.You both however have touched on part of the solution.What happens at home is key.I have an 11 year old daughter and the cutlure she gets at home is far different that what is out there,it gives her another point of reference.The culture kids get at home is vital.But it is horrid to see what is going on these days.This is in part the fruit of the destrcution of parental and teacher authority, anyway..........
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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:16 am

Russ PS are saying that this boy didnt fight back because he is middle class and afraid of the working class youth or something like that? Thats really f.....g wierd.This boy will be the punching bag of the school now.Maybe he has wimpy parents who wont back him if he fights back becasue "violence neevr solved anything blah blah" One reason why I loved my Dad so much was when I was getting the shit whacked out of me at school he taught me to box and use a hockey stick like a weapon and backed me up all the way when the little f...r bullies would whine and their parents would call my dad to complain, he would tell them "isnt your kid the son of a bitch who has been beating up my son? well if he doesnt like his black eye tell him to stop it" Now that was a Dad!!!!! Told my daughter the samething when she had a boy that was bullying her, told her to give a palm strike in the nose next time, she did, the school complained I didnt give a f..k and praised her.She felt good about her self and that little shit laid off her. anyway I rant Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:42 am

Hmm well I thought i'd stay quiet normally but this deserves a bit of comment.

It seems odd to me that he sat there, there was a seat free further back I think (a guy at the back swapped to get a 'better look' later on).
If he sat next to this bully because he was more afraid of people further back (even as a group) then that says a lot about the 'place' that he was in mentally and socially.
Does anyone else think this lad was the 'target of the month' for these guys, and this probably had built up over time?


First Attack: (By Purple Shirt Guy)

Notice how quiet the entire front half of the bus is before it starts - all of the noise is coming from the lads at the back.
I'm pretty sure they were trying to make him sit on the floor to humiliate/test him- at one point when he starts getting hit a lass at the front screams 'get on the floor', and at least one of the guys at the back says the word 'floor' aggressively too just before it kicks off.

It confuses me a bit that he didn't sit down. He wasn't gearing up to be attacked (you take your bag off dont you), but he also didn't want to give in to the mob. So I suppose he was just stuck in limbo (in his own head), and didn't do either AT FIRST.

When the victim gets pushed over and down by the Purple Shirt guy, he doesn't go limp, he clings on and keeps trying to get back up.
Another lad pulls the Purple guy off him and the victim slides back into the original seat (pretty quickly, he doesn't have to get off the floor..)

Personally I think he did start to 'fight' as soon as he started to go down, if he was 'running' then he would surely have covered up and tucked into a foetus position?


Second Attack: (by White t-Shirt Guy)

The guy in the white t-shirt seems to be talking at him, and everone at the back is still making a lot of noise. The lads who can't see are standing up, so obviously they didn't leave the victim alone. The odd thing though I think is he still hasn't taken his bag off.
Maybe he was ancicipating getting off the bus soon? A guy in a purple top puts HIS bag on, so maybe they're not far from the scool. The guy who puts his bag on seems to have a bit of decency because he puts himself in front of the victim.


I've always felt situations like this (unsupervised, no route of exit, and crammed together with peers) are completely artificial. A bit like putting a pair of male crabs in a bucket and forcing them to fight.
In this case it was the gang using territory as an excuse to attack the victim - they had the means (morally, in their eyes), and they had the 'motivation', i.e. group pressure/cowardice.

Like Sharif I could feel my blood pressure rise watching this, I think we all could. Some of those lads need a good slap, especially White T-Shirt guy - he didn't even have the balls to carry on hitting (or maybe he knew he was in the wrong..?)..
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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:27 pm

Nice observations Mike,
that 'target of the month' line feeds into to Shar's observation. it also reminds me when i
look at the heavy set lad near the front that looks back troubled--then at the bus driver,
then sort of fizzles [expectations crushed]. it feels like DC, and many other places i'm sure
...there isn't alot of commoraderie amongst the victim set. i've chased a purse snatcher
before and had crowd support in a way but they sort of exemplified that heavy-set lad,
"i'll silently root for you from WAY over here...something should be done"

that the victim didn't remove his bag--to me, just supports how 'un-settled' he felt in the
first place. when one is comfortable, the gear starts to come off.

Danite wrote///

"Russ PS are saying that this boy didnt fight back because he is middle class and afraid of the working class youth or something like that? Thats really f.....g wierd.This boy will be the punching bag of the school now.Maybe he has wimpy parents who wont back him if he fights back becasue "violence neevr solved anything blah blah" One reason why I loved my Dad so much was when I was getting the shit whacked out of me at school he taught me to box and use a hockey stick like a weapon and backed me up all the way when the little f...r bullies would whine and their parents would call my dad to complain, he would tell them "isnt your kid the son of a bitch who has been beating up my son? well if he doesnt like his black eye tell him to stop it" Now that was a Dad!!!!! Told my daughter the samething when she had a boy that was bullying her, told her to give a palm strike in the nose next time, she did, the school complained I didnt give a f..k and praised her.She felt good about her self and that little shit laid off her. anyway I rant "


the whole classist take by me is the dominant flavor in my east coast city environment--often given discrimination overtones, but clearly sort of re'distributing power back to the have-nots, by way of
ignorrant thuggery. it's a dangerous pidgeon hole here as it does nothing to reverse one's lot when it
comes to job ladder climbing socially. whilst many are not like this, few involve themselves in the solution as it represents a perceived danger to themselves. 1 in 3 males in DC--at least, end up with a short stay in prison. in my small circle of friends, three of my teen friends have been to prison. there's sort of a perverse lack of appreciation for the seriousness of it. of all those involved in fights--only one of which was a miscarriage of justice [someone tried to mug a black belt friend of mine and was arrested
whilst issuing a serious reprisal].

anyway, when i first saw this thought-provoking clip--probably because i also work in a school and have the unusual circumstances of working in a school that accomodates haves--and have nots, not always exemplifying the demographics of the clip, i just thought of the about a half dozen guys in my school that could have easily done things like this. on and off property. and our school isn't really that 'rough' around the edges, it's quite tame by comparison. my wife worked in several tougher schools where the so called security guards do not get involved in fights--they just sit back and review the monitors and call the police--many of which [sec. guards] are terrified [and act the part of a peer in passing] of said thugs [on occasion 18yrs/19yrs/etc]. my wife left because she had a baby, but the farther she gets from all that, the happier she feels. one tends to focus on behavior management in schools that display this, and not education. the principles [deans] tend to make a show of simply getting people out of the halls.

it's quite a mess, i can tell you.

Danite, i like your dad's style...and yours.
when my girl's old enough, i'll be giving her the talk you had with yours. and my son, crikey. sometimes i think at this age it's sometimes worse for boys as nothing by way of info moves up the ladder.
what the f&*k was the bus driver doing. even a scared bus driver can pull over and call the cops???

anyway, now i ramble/rant

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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:27 pm

Hi Russ, that's a good point about the bag and not being comfortable, as well as the lack of will to intervene amongst others, [potential] victims.

I remember once when a lad started on me (I was in school at the time, in an unsupervised classroom) and I froze like a rabbit before having a go back at him. The one thing I noticed was that whilst I was grappling (and panicking), almost every person in that room met my eyes.

The situation is a lot different to this, but the total unwillingness to help (and shock) on other peoples faces has been burned into my memory and also seems relevant here. I think the general consensus was that I probably deserved it, after all; 'it takes two to tango', right? By participating I was responsible, despite the fact it was an unprovoked attack.

I wonder what the bus driver's attitude was. I assume that he didn't take responsibility (relitively easy compared to this poor guy's situation who was getting battered).


(Typically the teacher walked in when I had this lad's head down and was gonna do some damage lol (right when I caught 'the buzz/pump' where you just turn into a victory machine, smell blood and enjoy it). 5 mins later we were laughing in the corridoor with each other - the Head of Year made us shake hands. This lad was a bully and should have been charged with assault.

EDit: I also remember overhearing his 'hard man' friends asking 'if I was hard' later on. This just reinforces the coward mindset in my opinion, the whole thing was, in my opinion, entirely premeditated because I looked like a 'good fight' - big but not necessarily willing to back it up)
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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:14 pm

Russ being on the front lines of the dysfucntion and hate that american socsity is awash in , is a tough job.I hope you dont take offence, but I am often shocked at how pervasive violence and hate are in american society.I am not going to get into a whole analysis of it,suffice it to say, I have had many opportunities to move to the states but havent because I find their is too much darwinian stuff going on.You have a really tough job I can see.
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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:27 pm

Danite wrote:
I am often shocked at how pervasive violence and hate are in american society.

I would guess that depends on what you are comparing that to and which part of America you look at. Is it really that much worse that parts of the UK or other parts of the world?
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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:32 pm

I dont want this to become a pro or anti american thing, that was not my intention at all.I shouldnt have brought it up as it is taken the wrong way.I would agree that these problems have swamped western countires in general, however it is my experiance and information that it is even more ferocious in the US.That being said I take my leave of this subject before it turns into something I didnt intend it to.
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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:50 pm

Danite wrote:
I dont want this to become a pro or anti american thing, that was not my intention at all.I shouldnt have brought it up as it is taken the wrong way.I would agree that these problems have swamped western countires in general, however it is my experiance and information that it is even more ferocious in the US.That being said I take my leave of this subject before it turns into something I didnt intend it to.

i get what you're saying. on a side tangent, if you ever do decide on coming abroad...there are loads of ways to research crime in an area; places good for kids; places with good schools; etc...thanks to the web. it's why we were seriously considering:
-austin, texas
-honolulu, hawaii
-san diego, california

are criteria was: "good places to raise a family"

i'm sure we can narrow that by looking at crime stats, and what types of crimes are occuring.
this is all pipe dreams of course as all of it is contingent upon selling a house and landing a job Razz
my vote is on hawaii--although it'll be a real pain in the butt to not be able to swim all day and
eat pineapples Crying or Very sad

lol!

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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:26 am

This could easily be London. And where you've also got 'happy slapping': where a group pick on one stranger expecting no fight back and video proceedings for the entertainment of their friends and other Youtube viewers. They can become serious beatings.

Raises the question what to do if, say, you're on a bus/train, and a group of black youths start filming and slapping you about - pretty much every fatal stabbing and shooting in London in last 2 years has been black youths (mostly black on black though) - and it's reasonable to assume one or more might be carrying a blade. Do you fight back? Confined space, no immediate escape, multiple, fast, maybe some big individuals ready to pile in? Seagal's editor might struggle to make it convincing.
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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:20 am

Bing_bang wrote:

Raises the question what to do if, say, you're on a bus/train, and a group of black youths start filming and slapping you about - pretty much every fatal stabbing and shooting in London in last 2 years has been black youths (mostly black on black though) - and it's reasonable to assume one or more might be carrying a blade.


not the only prerequisate for alarm bells in London, mind you don't come off sounding--well, off track
...even if that's not where your coming from. to be honest, it sounds a bit like media-misguided alarmism, off the back scratch

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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:36 am

You know, it's difficult know when/how to intervene in an assault. I've been there when I could have easily neutralized this guy who was attempting to assault my friend. But there was just so much hesitation. If he had of been encroaching on me, however, I quite sure I'd have just dropped him (based on past situations I've been in and of course, it's what I'm trained to do). I wonder if it's worth teaching some kind of 3rd party protection techniques/tactics? I mean, I'm familiar with quite a few 'intervening' techniques from Lee Morrison's stuff for bouncers and some close protection stuff, but because I've never bothered to 'train and ingrain' them, they just didn't happen when I needed them.

Anybody ever see that clip of a woman being stabbed to bits by her psycho ex-lover and there's like 6 grown men just standing there and watching, slack-jawed?

I always teach my students never to assume people will help you.
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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:25 pm

Sharif Haque (Tacpro) wrote:
You know, it's difficult know when/how to intervene in an assault. I've been there when I could have easily neutralized this guy who was attempting to assault my friend. But there was just so much hesitation. If he had of been encroaching on me, however, I quite sure I'd have just dropped him (based on past situations I've been in and of course, it's what I'm trained to do). I wonder if it's worth teaching some kind of 3rd party protection techniques/tactics? I mean, I'm familiar with quite a few 'intervening' techniques from Lee Morrison's stuff for bouncers and some close protection stuff, but because I've never bothered to 'train and ingrain' them, they just didn't happen when I needed them.

Anybody ever see that clip of a woman being stabbed to bits by her psycho ex-lover and there's like 6 grown men just standing there and watching, slack-jawed?

I always teach my students never to assume people will help you.

wow, really good point. i've actually been in your place sort of feeling it would have been easier to
have been the one in the hot seat. part of it--for me, was not really thinking outside the 1st person,
but another part of that is if a mate was involved in something that wasn't outright 'being-jumped', i don't always have the rage that may constitute jumping in. i've had alot of mates that weren't really blameless, mostly from way back. i've perposely wittled down my mates that i still 'hang-out' with for that reason. i think part of said 3rd party training must at least involve having your mates know their roles as well as yours. in the absence of collaberative training, the situation is unfamiliar. when it comes to strangers, it is sometimes awkward because one doesn't know [unless it's obvious] what limitations
you have by way of a welcome. my grandfather--according to family law, was killed breaking up a
fight [back turned to the one he wasn't concerned with--then knifed]. i've seen a happy slapping
build up too once, where the numbers were just too big [phoning the cops would be better in that
instance...which was sort of over just as i got there].

i think, perhaps a good starting point--for me, having thought about it since you raised the point would be:
[in theory] shoving the guy off a mate; giving the directive to fook-off;
by doing that, you've redefined the terms [psychologically] of engagement

with strangers, hmmm scratch worth thinking about.
alot of 'non-fighters' do more good with the simple announcement
"i'm calling the cops"

again, then if you're in the hot seat...different position from which to work from.

okay, now i'm just thinking out loud. good question though Question

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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:38 pm

Well, this connects really well with the 'bystander apathy' problem. I would personally be very interested to have a few 'game plans'. I suspect it will be hard to generalize, but still, must be some ideas out there ...
I remember a friend of mine from Vancouver heard screaming in a parking lot in broad day light - woman and a guy yelling and he shoving her etc. Not sure exactly what to do he just started by walking close enough, into the guy's direct line of sight and standing and watching him. He was joined by a couple other guys, and just having an 'audience' made the guy stop and calm down.
OTOH, a friend of mine intervened in a guy/gal yelling match in Baltimore, had a gun pulled on him and got yellad at by both of them! He backed off.
I don't think you can necessarily control the outcome, but i think it was good that both friends got involved.

On another point - pretty much every story I have ever heard about a personal experience of school yard bullying, where the person fought back, ends in .. "and then they didn't bother me any more". Is this just a skewed view from the company I keep, or is it true? Anyone got examples of fighting back not being a good idea. And now, I'm talking about school. I understand the problems of getting into it with a neighborhood gang, and how not fighting is sometimes what you have to do if you live in certain 'hoods.

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PostSubject: Re: Vicious school bus attack   Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:56 pm

maija wrote:

On another point - pretty much every story I have ever heard about a personal experience of school yard bullying, where the person fought back, ends in .. "and then they didn't bother me any more". Is this just a skewed view from the company I keep, or is it true? .


...not a bad point, and as far as my experiences [witnessing school yard fights] goes [being a teacher].
a memorable showing doth not a rematch make.

one of my best friends as a tean, i met standing up to him in a fight...wasn't a remarkable showing, but
i was so incensed and full of agro he sort of thought 'i was okay' in his book--odd book that it was. he later, of course, went to prison and many other stations in life that reflected his perverse sensabilities, so as a thug turned 'temporary-friend'...he stands as a good frame of reference from which to draw my conclusions.

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