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 Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.

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soahc



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PostSubject: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:34 pm

What are people's thoughts on using brutal elbows to block a flurry of punches, like with Richard's video 'Silat Style elbows' or in the style of Muay Chaiya?

It seems to me like this would be the best defense/offense to a flurry of punches when cornered and without the ability to run/duck away.

I was thinking of a drill to work this where the puncher tapes up and puts on gloves, and the blocker puts on padded elbow guards. The puncher then does some flurries, not necessarily 100%, and the blocker/elbower tries to hit the puncher in the fist with their elbows.

Needless to say, an elbow would break knuckles, so I'm thinking this could be a good way to defend against boxers.

The puncher from the above drill could even put on forearm guards, so the defending elbower could also aim for the arms with the elbows, as hitting arms with elbows would also potentially incapacitate an aggressive puncher.

Thoughts?
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chulodog

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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:10 pm

man! just fight! haha, all the details.. no problem, but just hit the geek
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roadkill

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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:39 pm

I agree with chulodog...

I understand what you are saying and its good to understand that those elbows can protect you, but if you don't come out fighting at some point (the sooner the better IMO) you are mearly getting pummeled and trying to cover.
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soahc



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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:06 pm

And breaking someone's hands isn't fighting? I am saying that the elbows can be used for both defense and offense. Sure, after blocking a few punches, when the aggressor's knuckles are broken, then one could move in for the kill.

I am specifically addressing flurries because it seems that a lot of street fights are two guys throwing flurries at each other, hay makers etc.

You say that I should 'just fight', but I posted a specific drill much akin to the drills all martial artists use, mixed martial artists included. Would you tell them to 'man! just fight!'?
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RichardB



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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:18 am

I get Chulo's perspective. It seems more like a question of levels.

In a fight, you fight. No room for much else. But in training, you build skills and attributes by isolating and fitting things together. On the theoretical level, you seek out and build more and better information to improve your training, and so your fighting as the end product. Different levels requiring different ways of thinking.

Just fighting might seem good enough on the surface, but strain it through a slow capture camera. Like this...



...and the details are shown to be in full play. At 5:16 and a bit onwards there are a few good segments where stick sparring in slow-mo is shown. At full speed, they're just fighting. Slow it down enough and all those minute details begin to stand out. There is a method within the blur of motion.

That is why to train.


Now, on to the elbow Vs. flurry of punches. It seems testable, so long as the protection worn isn't so large that it prevents punches to go in if missed. It seems awfully reliant on accuracy, although that may not necessarily be as large a factor as it appears to. But if what you believe is a punch turns out to be a knife, which is reported as much as 70% - 80% of the time about knife attacks, then it can be ugly. The latter would be my main objection.

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soahc



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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:40 am

Thanks for your reply Richard.

Yes it is much like the Dog Brothers, what I am describing. It seems to me that in a lot of street fights, it is two guys flurrying each other with punches, trying to overwhelm each other. In such a situation, why not meet a flurry of punches with a flurry of elbows, rather than a flurry of counter punches?

With kali style stick fighting, much of the hits are stick on stick. Kali systems believe that all their techniques are usable unarmed pretty much as far as I know. They view the sticks as just extensions of the arms. So I am just applying this. Instead of stick on stick contact, there is arm on arm contact in a fight. I am saying it might be a good idea to counter punches with elbows, because the elbow is by far the hardest part of an arm.

I have seen some good FMA videos on youtube where elbows are used to hit the arm of an opponent.

Of course, this elbow against punch technique I am talking about would best be used in conjunction with bobbing and weaving like in boxing. But it is interesting to me that in Kali they do not evade as much as in boxing. They just go for it...'just fight!' In a combat situation where there may be other attackers, bobbing and weaving or shuffling back like boxers or UFC guys do may noty be the best option. In dangerous situations, one may want to just destroy. The elbows can destroy better than anything on the upper body besides perhaps a head butt.

It's just that if there is ANY part of the upper body to block a punch with, the elbow would be it. The only other part of the upper body that is as hard is the top of the head, which is not tactically a good idea.
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thugsage
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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:50 am

...and from the other end of it, i've landed a punch on someone's elbow and it f#$king hurts--derails the flow. for me, it used to add injury potential because of my closed fists relaxed before contact. i'd tense
up at the end--aiding in speed. a reason for my open hand stuff now. if your elbows are going up anyway, why not barrel in, with a speared elbow to his head and all. then follow up according to your sensabilities/skills/etc...

as for the mind set of attacking fists, in american high school i got into alot of fights and found that i was at a dissadvantage being short and stocky. i quickly found out that i could initially attack those long arms. it didn't bring me quick turn-around wins, but people hated fighting me and invariably ended up
being heavily bruised all over their body from the low leg kicks, knuckles to the forearms, and eventually once those arms got heavy--that face would open up.

i'm happy with palms now. elbows might not be as good against those scratch

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Sharif H



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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:26 am

Soahc,

Mate, I trained out in the Philippines for two months solid. Learned some really cool 'guntings' or limb destructions that largely revolve around the elbow.

Pressure tested some of it recently. The results.... if there was an emoticon doing the 'thumbs down' sign, i'd put it here.

What I found worked when trying to position my elbows over my face so he punches my elbows was that when under the pressure of real punches, those sneakily placed elbows start to sink and you end up just covering your face with your forearms much like a boxer. I'm in the process of making a promo clip in which you'll see what I mean. I'll post it up soon.

The only other time where there might be an accidental gunting is when entering. I do a kind of crazy monkey /O'neil cover thing as I enter in through punches in order to get within clinching range of my opponent. There is a chance he may accidently punch my elbow (ouch) but what tends to happen is a kind of spearing elbow that punches in to his chest (also ouch, but not the ouch you were asking about).

Like Chulo said, you'll just have to test it. You said about gloving and padding up and testing it.... well, that's what you gotta do. You never know, you may just have naturally unnatural abbility to pull them off.
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soahc



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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:24 pm

I am not talking about simply blocking punches with elbows. I am talking basically about answering a flurry of punches with a reactive flurry of elbows, rather than a reactive flurry of counter punches or ducking and weaving. Thanks for replies all! I indeed want to pad up and practice this drill soon.
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D.M.B.

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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:12 pm

soahc wrote:
I am not talking about simply blocking punches with elbows. I am talking basically about answering a flurry of punches with a reactive flurry of elbows, rather than a reactive flurry of counter punches or ducking and weaving. Thanks for replies all! I indeed want to pad up and practice this drill soon.

If you're reactively blocking more than 1 or 2 punches then you aren't countering, you're back peddaling and asking for trouble.

No one intent on hurting you is going to continue to throw a 'flurry' into your already raised elbows for you to nicely deflect. Instead, after you've block the first 1 or 2 shots and the attacker realizes what you're doing, the next will be a hook to the side of your head, and if you open up your elbows to block that, then the knee to your chin will take care of you for good.

Now, I love elbows. I like to work with mine a lot and they do a lot of damage and I never really feel anything. Same with my knees... they are hard as hell... but I just can't see relying on it more than once, after that you've gotta finish it because it's likely the attacker will adjust.

Now I do like the idea of drilling the elbow block/deflection idea, I don't think you'd need pads on the elbows if the puncher is wearing gloves. But the drill would need to be pretty intense to actually pressure test, because if you don't catch the punch with your eblow in a real fight and miss you might not be getting up as a haymaker or a hook could be carrying some serious body weight behind it.
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soahc



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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:27 pm

A haymaker is even more open for getting elbowed than a jab or cross.

And I am not talking about blocking or deflecting. I am talking about answering a flurry of punches with a flurry of elbows.

Close in, there is nothing as lethal as elbows. Nothing will do as much damage, no part of the upper body is harder.

So an attacker moves in with a flurry of punches, the defender answers with flurry of elbows, who's more likely to come out on top? Say just one of those punches connects with one of those elbows, a broken hand is likely. Seems like the best way to stop a flurry to me. Besides ducking and running.
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chulodog

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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:32 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIafOjj9Vlc&feature=related

some nice elbows
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Danite



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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:51 pm

soahc, just my two cents.Trying to get too specific into techincal counter measures for too long in a fight works to the attackers advantage.people are problem solvers and the attacker has the initiative , therefore he can shift his attacks at will.I would suggest if needed by all means get those pointy sharp elbow points out there, but drive foward into him and attack.better to attack his intetnion and capacity to attack than try to counter flurry with flurry.Just my take on it.
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soahc



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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:20 pm

Thanks Danite.

Yes, driving forward with the counter flurry of elbows, getting in closer, maybe hitting a fist on the way in then getting in close enough to land an elbow to the head.

I did not mean just standing there throwing elbows.

I think that this elbow flurry defense/offense would be a good alternative in a stand up match to typical boxing techniques like bobbing/weaving and blocking with forearms before counter punching. Elbowing may even be more advantageous than the hunt and pick style of boxing where punches are dodged then counter punches are thrown. When the fight needs to end a.s.a.p., dodging and ducking may not be as good as just blasting full through. And elbows are better than fists in that whatever they hit they will mess up. Punches not so much.
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Danite



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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:51 pm

Hey soahc, there are a variety of cover and crash methods.have a look at Lee Morrisons site Urban combatives, he as a very detailed article there about all kinds.Also dont forget the mere fact of crashing into the person negates his punches, in fact negates his whole "striking plan" Have a look at Richies mauling dvd for good ideas at what to do when you have crashed into stand up grappling range.Most people arent used to ffighting in that range or they go for the headlock or some type of wrestling force on force type of stuff.if you can learn to fight well in very close quarters where you will be after the cover and crash, then you will not only have a huge advantage over most attackers , but have also positioned yourself to really deal with an attacker in a very effective and hardcore way.Look at the way boxers clinch to deal with a pounding right? Now add that with richies "mauling" dvd and his beta 8 material and you will set for close quarters.Hope that helps and regards.
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soahc



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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:19 am

Ill check that out, thanks Danite.
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Sharif H



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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:04 am

soahc wrote:


Yes, driving forward with the counter flurry of elbows, getting in closer, maybe hitting a fist on the way in then getting in close enough to land an elbow to the head.

I did not mean just standing there throwing elbows.

I think that this elbow flurry defense/offense would be a good alternative in a stand up match to typical boxing techniques like bobbing/weaving and blocking with forearms before counter punching.

I think you've got the right idea. But that flurry of elbow probably wont be much of a flurry when combined with this aggressive forward motion. Because he'll be moving towards you too. You'll maybe execute one, maybe two elbows before you end up in a stand-up clinch. It'll be like two trains hitting eachother (which is GOOD!) So there wont be much time for a flurry to happen.

I'll make a prediction and say that when you get round to pressure testing this, what you'll find is that if he's moving into you with dedication, there wont be much elbowing, it'll turn more into that crazy monkey /O'neil cover thing that I mentioned in my first post and that Danite mentioned when talking about Lee Morrison.

If he retreats and tries to avoid your aggressive forward movement and continues to punch while retreating, then you may find that you start covering with your forearms as some of his punches find their way through the elbowing.

Just to underline, I'm not contradicting your idea. I now understand what you were originally posting - and i think you've got the right idea. But I'm pretty confident you'll discover what I did when pressure testing the idea. Please let me know if my predictions where right or wrong when you actually do put the gloves on Very Happy
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Sharif H



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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:36 am

chulodog wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIafOjj9Vlc&feature=related

some nice elbows

This is a great clip. I had an idea whilst watching it... elbow sparring! Helmet on, elbow pads on, sparring using elbows only. You'd also be allowed anchor behind the neck or fully clinch, but no punching or any other kind of strike. Start off slow of course. Just to get a feel for how to defend and counter elbows, obviously just a drill for elbow familiarization.

Please let me know if anybody has tried this.
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soahc



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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:54 am

Here is a perfect example. Tito Ortiz under fire from Chuck Liddell, just taking it. He could have started using those elbows.

Starts at 0.51:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5CvVEyxBns&feature=PlayList&p=521CDD0A3D9D3F11&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=10
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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:13 pm

use it all bro! head, teeth, shoulders, elbows, hands, hips, knees and feet. work em all and use them all. really depends on the range though. never throw and rlbow and kicking range lol.
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Sharif H



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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:09 pm

Saohc,

did you get my two PMs? I've got them in my 'outbox' rather than 'sent'. Wondering if that means you haven't read them yet?
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soahc



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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:07 pm

I got them, read them, and replied to them. You did not receive my reply?
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Richard Grannon
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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:53 am

soahc wrote:
Here is a perfect example. Tito Ortiz under fire from Chuck Liddell, just taking it. He could have started using those elbows.

Starts at 0.51:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5CvVEyxBns&feature=PlayList&p=521CDD0A3D9D3F11&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=10

not shown in that edit but, the next punch chuck throws is an uppercut and it knocks tito out, which is what he gets for being too defensive, those elbows werent being used offensively and didnt work well defensively either



watch from 1.20 for two different examples of titos ineffective use of elbows to defend



its just not an ergonomically strong position to counter attack from at all, youve folded your major weapons against your head, where you arent applying pressure and attacking the attacker you are simply presenting a target

unless you use the elbow to CRASH meaning you bodily occupy the other guys space with your elbow cover applied VERY aggressively I think your in to sport strategies (and not very good ones at that, see video) and just plane la la land

Cover, Crash, Maul the fucker and then start giving him some shots of your own



ps there is no such thing as a "flurry" of elbows


a flurry of punches is possible because a rapid succession of them can be delivered from multiple angles, how many elbows can you deliver rapidly from multiple angles?

One, (whioh means just one angle) and then you have to "reset" your hips and shoulders
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soahc



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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:34 am

I think you misunderstood me. I was also saying that Tito wasn't being aggressive enough. In that situation, under fire from a flurry of punches, instead of blocking like Tito did, he should have started torquing with his torso and throwing those elbows out to counter the flurry. He should have used the elbows offensively, and I think that when one is put on defense by a flurry of punches, the best way to turn it around is to start throwing elbows.

I have witnessed quite a few fights. Many of them were surprise attacks using a flurry of punches. Under such conditions, where one is put on defense, I would go with elbows.
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PostSubject: Re: Elbowing the punch flurry: blocking jabs, crosses, and hooks with elbows.   Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:46 am

Re-read Ritchies post......& Shariffs.

You are betting your elbows against his fists. It is physically impossible to throw your elbows as fast, or vary them up as against his fists and handspeed. You will not be able to catch his fists on your elbows

I agree the vid you use is perfect. it perfectly demonstrates why covering and taking hits is inappropriate, You are wasting time which he will be using against you. You are not duelling.

Cover & smash into them then hit. Mccann Or O'neil into central upper body mass. Smash into them like a rhino, It will get you out of the flurry , will give you a second, it will put them off their game.

I wrote this out last night, similiar to Richie. then signed in & lost the post. Wasnt going to bother until I just read your reply,

Sugggest you get friend to punch you in the face, hard & fast & constant & try out your way & what Rich & Shariff suggested. See what works.
Very Happy
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